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Weekend at Burnies

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If they could all just denounce all of it.

I think it would qualify as evolution.

Ok, so despite the fact that it is his constitutional right to burn the Quran, he shouldn't do it because it might offend someone? This is the same as what happened with the Danish cartoonists who depicted Muhammad. People are condemning someone expressing their human right of freedom of speech and expression rather than those who would kill him and others for it. If we are forced to curtail our rights to appease murderous religious extremists, then they've already won. Yes, I agree that this pastor is a nutjob, but it is his constitutional right to burn the Quran, just as it's my right to burn the Bible. I'm an atheist and I support his right to burn the Quran. If Bibles can be burned and you can have "Jesus in Piss" deemed to be artwork, then the Islam and the Quran shouldn't be above criticism and derision.

I'm with you on this. How about if we make a fire out of Islamic extremists and burn reverend Cracker? I call that a win-win situation.

hear hear

What if this guy was trying to make a valid social political point rather than just being a religious bigot? Would the Secretary of defense be calling him and asking him to shut up?

Gates and Obama want someone to blame for increasing American casualties in Afghanistan. Their argument is lame. What's next? Will they suggest that our troops are in more danger because American women aren't wearing burkas? It's like blaming the girl with a short skirt even before she gets raped. Asinine.

I don't buy your overwrought analogies, but you may well be right about Gates and Obama looking for a way to shift the blame for Afghanistan casualties.

user-pic

Bravo!

I said as much, also tying the anger, and even the fact that the burning is worthy of notice, to our inconsiderate military hyperactivity. My comment was "censored" (Yes, I know, not the exact precise word, but it is close enough for blog commentary) by the blog owner.

We should all burn Korans in front of military bases, and "defence" plants. Our troops have put US in danger, AND taken away our free expression.

Get off your pseudo-liberal high horses and think about it, don't just react reflexively. Put into symbolic logic symbols if that helps:

When Salman Rushdie, a respectably effete intllectual, i. e., respectable to Onegoodmovers and shakers, writes (gasp!) Satanic Verses, he is heroic. A giant. But when the intellectually tiny Pastor Jones, an accidental genius (although admittedly a Forrest Gumpy one), hits on his shorthand version of "the Satanic Verses", the effete cowardly "liberals" shit their pants. Shit their pants.

You are intellectual, but also intellectual cowards!

You remind me of none other than the senile John McCain (the one who brought us Sarah Palin, not the earlier one).

"Liberalism" has gone senile somewhere after the Satanic Verses, and the Cartoons of the Prophet Muhammed-peace-be-upon-him-and-explosives-too, and before this recent Terry Jones affair. Liberals (and conservatives, only the wackos seem to be immune this time, count me among their number if it makes you feel warm and fuzzy and safe) have lost their cojones,

and their integrity.

Censor me again, but...you are no Nietzschean, sondern vielleicht ...Massenmensch, Ungeziefer:

Ungeheures Ungeziefer!

Intellectual coward.

It's all about fear. If someone were burning a stack of religious texts from any other religion besides Islam, few would care because they know that there wouldn't be masses of angry Christians, Jews, Buddhists, or Hindus willing to murder over it. Sure, there would be people upset over it, but people wouldn't fear for their lives. You certainly wouldn't have the president, secretary of state, and a high ranking general coming out against it. The terrorists have successfully brainwashed too many people in the West that it's better to hold our tongues and curtail our freedoms rather than offend them. I say burn the books. They're not holy, there is nothing special or magical about them. If your god has a problem with it, let him deal with it. Surely Allah doesn't need human beings to protect his ever so fragile ego.

Aren't you familiar with Crackergate? Also, is this guy receiving a lot of death threats from muslims? Cause PZ certainly did.

Yeah, the response to this idiot has completely left a bad taste in my mouth.

Are we really this weak and afraid.

It's nothing more than a pragmatic decision. If you're going to stand for a principle it makes sense to do it at a time and in a way that makes the point clear without the distraction of the motives of the nutjob clouding the issue, though I can see the point of never compromise on the issue.

One shouldn't be disrespectful simply because one can. The Danish cartoons were making a point, perhaps the Islamic community didn't learn from that incident and needs it repeated. Once they understand that the intimidation and fear gets them nowhere then the job is done perhaps with the occasional reminder, but one doesn't need to make the point every day. I don't think they have learned the lesson yet and perhaps the burning is appropriate though I'd rather it came from a principled source rather than a nutcase.

The problem is the hypocrisy. What would these bigots do if muslims, or anyone, started burning bibles beside them? Their reaction would clearly reveal if their intentions have anything to do with free speech.

Besides, book burning is a terribly bad idea, especially for secularists and free-thinkers. That these people are religious kooks only fits with the MO.

Nothing. People bash Christianity all the time in the US. It's not even news anymore.

I think you're missing the point. The muslims will also probably do nothing. And people "bash" christianity all the time, but they also get death threats often.

The point is that if these bigots were making a point for free speech, they would not mind, and even encourage, others burning bibles. Do you think that's true? How do you think atheists felt when PZ Myers took a copy of The God Delusion, together with a consecrated host and a Koran, and put a nail through them and took a picture of them in the garbage can? He received more threats from Catholics, and as far as I know, not much noise from muslims. Atheists either congratulated him, or complained that he disrespected the religious (the faitheists). Even Dawkins himself wrote to give his support.

That's the difference when you do this for free speech, than when you're just being an obnoxious bigot.

I don't know that I want my Government judgeing intent before determining if the first ammendment applies.

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It just occurs to me that the real losers in all these brouhahas are the mass Muslims. They are totally out of their own self-control, like Hitler's mesmerized masses. At least we still have a choice even if we make the wrong one. They in contrast have reverted to the reptilian mode. Pre-mammal. "God" help them!

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/judaica/ejud_0002_0019_0_19544.html

The muslims will also probably do nothing.-andyo

always loved your sense of humor, andyo. what do you think these people are, jews?

and as for terry jones and his 'stasch, who do you think he represents? do any of you guys actually know anything about america?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kSa8IWWXX5k

of course, it's all going to become about the jews:

http://www.haaretz.com/news/international/ahmadinejad-koran-burning-will-bring-about-israel-s-annihilation-1.313189

and norm and everyone will talk about how "annihilation" is actually a mistranslation of the farsi, or how it's referring to voting the "zionist regime" out of power.

i wish you all a reflective, balanced, honest 9/ll, jewish new year, and muslim id el fatr.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ISmgOrhELXs

of course, it's all going to become about the jews:

http://www.haaretz.com/news/international/ahmadinejad-koran-burning-will-bring-about-israel-s-annihilation-1.313189

Ahmadinehad is a nut case and has been. See my response to Morford's article in Wed. links

and as for terry jones and his 'stasch, who do you think he represents? do any of you guys actually know anything about america?

Thanks for the song. Until recently I lived in the southeast. Who does Jones (why are nutcases named "Jones"?) represent? About 30 people. If the media had left this story alone, it just might have gotten no notice. Sure has taken up air time.

Also thanks for the new year song. If I did as it suggested I'd be passed out about now. :)

i think you're wrong about who t. jones represents, both in "gator country" and, especially, nyc. in any case his little stunt didn't go through, because of pressure from-literally- the highest political eschelons in the country, so i guess we won't find out-yet- what might have happened. the 1st ammendment as regards book burning remains untested on the level that almost happened- and will probably happen, soon, maybe in a slightly different form. what will probably result will be a further erosion of your civil liberties which will pass almost unnoticed given the massive erosion of the last 10 years. tolerance, good. fear, bad. police state, bad. so let's call it tolerance. then, when the revolution comes, the cops can say they're busting heads for tolerance. :)jk jeez, i don't know where i get this stuff. too much lynyrd skynyrd as a child.

Ooooo - I'm going all semantical on you! :) Jones represented about 30 people, hen he got lots o' attention. I'm sure there are more who'll follow him just as they follow the likes of Mrs. Palin.

And Jones changing his tune? C'mon! He said he got a sign from God, not U.S. higher ups! Dude, no sec def or potus is gonna trump gawd.

the "sign" from u.s. higher ups was well publicized, and jones talked about it himself. are you saying he now claims gawd told him and he never got that phone call? of course i believe you but could you post a link on that? there's been a shortage of funny in my life lately.

Nonetheless, "We feel that God is telling us to stop," he said. "Not today, not ever. We're not going to go back and do it. It is totally canceled."

from npr 9/11 story

Granted, his story has changed over the week. sept 9 he said

Thursday that that he prayed about the decision and concluded that if the mosque was moved, it would be a sign from God to call off the Quran burning.

and there's more about oppositionin this report:

His decision comes after a firestorm of criticism from leaders around the world. The pope and several other Christian leaders were among those urging him to reconsider his plans, which generated a wave of anger and criticism across the Muslim world. In Afghanistan, hundreds of angry Afghans burned an American flag and chanted "Death to the Christians" to protest the planned Quran burning.

oh hooray...

The cancellation was welcomed in Gainesville, a city of 125,000 anchored by the sprawling University of Florida campus.

"It's very good news for Gainesvilile and good news for everyone involved," said City Manager Russ Blackburn.

Jones' neighbors also have said they disapprove. At least two dozen Christian churches, Jewish temples and Muslim organizations in the city had mobilized to plan inclusive events, including Quran readings at services, as a counterpoint to Jones' protest.

Jones' Dove Outreach Center is independent of any denomination. It follows the Pentecostal tradition, which teaches that the Holy Spirit can manifest itself in the modern day. Pentecostals often view themselves as engaged in spiritual warfare against satanic forces.

thanks! the npr quote is from a today show segment i thought i'd actually seen, but i don't remember the "we feel god is telling us" bit. this is probably because i speak fluent redneckese and it didn't register as a claim to prophesy but more like " we are being mugged by heavily armed bandits. we feel that god is telling us to hand over our wallets".

when this sort of redneck is claiming prophesy, he'll sound more like this:

"god told me to skin you alive". you can't really miss it. i think, for instance, god told him to burn the korans in the first place. ahh, what a world. no loyalty anymore.

(apologies to the dead kennedies)

that seemed like a kind of disjointed practice session containing elements of this song:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fG8UuZ0NZGY&feature=related

you sure this isn't what you were looking for? anyway your clip made me smile, remembering what geeks/nerds/whatever so many of the best of the original punks actually were. god, i loved that shit.

the reference i was making about redneck-speak was to the intro to this fantastic/awful song:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TtqPlB-oC4w

gypsy and norm must be tearing their hair out by now...apologies to the dainty.

bwqahahahaha! I grew up on rock and roll and was quite the punker in college - amazing what that can do to increase your musical expression in the classics! I may look dainty, but have 2 older brothers and that's all that needs to be said.

Sorry JB, never much liked the DKs. Dead Milkmen were more my style. Of course that was BC ;-)

Are muslims in the US any worse than many christians and catholics when it comes to intolerance? My point was that the intention of these christian assholes is not to protest for free speech against some muslim assholes. It's hypocrisy. Syngas said these christians wouldn't do anything if others burned bibles next to them (highly debatable), so I'm saying muslims in the US will also probably not do anything to them christians.

Context when you quote please.

i'm saying muslims in the US will also probably not do anything to them christians.

if this is so clear, why would the u.s. secretary of defense call jones personally to tell him to call off his little book burning?

Man, again, context. Whatever the government said about this guy they're not censoring him, just asking him not to do it. If he did it he was not going to prison or anything.

And the government asking or pleading this guy is something different than muslims in the US reacting to it. The government is worried about the rest of the world.

Muslims in the US aren't much worse than christians, and it can be argued that christians historically, and still, do more harm for education, for instance.

The government is worried about the rest of the world.

hmmmmm......there's no point in speculating what went down in that conversation but i find it hard to believe that "asking" or "pleading", especially for the sake of "the rest of the world" was part of it. guys like gates are not known for playing nerf or whiffleball. i suppose anything's possible. i do know concern for u.s. troops overseas was mentioned but if one nutjob with a few followers could cause that much damage you'd think the afghanis would be arranging "false flag" koran burnings all over the place. hope i'm not giving anyone any ideas...

I don't really care what their point is. We're all bigots Andyo, some just don't realize it yet.

related picture

related how?

I'm surprised you don't know who killed Van Gogh, and why.

to be fair, your photo link didn't provide any textual context.

http://dir.salon.com/news/feature/2004/11/24/vangogh/

even with the context, i sincerely hope we're not going to be hearing about "isolated incidents" and "it was only one guy" and "it doesn't represent muslim attitudes or belief". or even "it was roundly condemned by mainstream muslim leaders"- which it wasn't.

I read the stories about Van Gogh's death, but didn't really pay attention to pictures, so there was nothing to recall when viewing your link. Also, having one person on the ground with a hood on his (probably his, from my original viewing) doesn't exactly support the fact that we are all bigots.

To clarify, to the death of one person does not support that all of us are bigots. It does highlight that there are those who will kill in the name of bigotry, just as they will in the name of religion or money.

i too don't understand why syngas equated that photo with "we're all bigots", although i agree with him on that point. for instance, i think we can all agree we're bigoted against people who will do this sort of thing for any reason, especially religious gobbldygook. furthermore van gogh was a bigot himself, being vocally opposed to those he saw as trying to impose ancient, brutal law on a proudly and historically progressive society. not unlike most of you guys, in fact.. the question for americans is, is bigotry protected by the 1st amendment? how far will the authorities go to protect that right? the danish, the french, the germans and the dutch have wrestled with this issue and are massively conflicted and and basically moving in the direction of "fuck the wogs, but let america be the canary in the coal mine.

can you protect free speech against 1.5 billion "princess and the pea"s?

It might be a good idea to define what you mean by bigot, in reading this thread it seems to me that there are several different views of term being used. If we're all bigots the definition has been so watered down it's not very useful.

won't bother bombarding you with links. you are bigoted if you see a particular different creed as being antithetical to your chosen way of life and/or a danger to it. you are brave and foolish and hypocritical and cowardly (all at the same time)if you try to defend this creed's right to affect your way of life. you misunderstand the american constitution if you think a particular religion should be accorded special rights (or any rights) because of threats of violence, whether from their leaders or (especially) your own. you are a shameless cherry picker if you vocally defend these rights for one religion and not all of them.

i say again, along with syngas: we are all bigots. but we are not all hypocrites.

Well, I might be a hypocrite on occasion. I'll be working on that one for a very long time. Thankfully, I have you all to call me on it ;)

the danish, the french, the germans and the dutch have wrestled with this issue and are massively conflicted and and basically moving in the direction of "fuck the wogs,

Aye. I don't know so much about the Germans and th Dutch, but I know that the French have nor tolerance for neither burquas, hijab, or any other type of religious bullshit.

The U.S. tolerates the Muslims and Jews more than any other western civilization.

you might enjoy the intolerance of the Europeans towards any Muslim bullshit, but u might not be so delighted about the Yurpeen disgust with the Jewish bullshit.

What? No yarmulke?

link

In July 2003 the French President Jacques Chirac set up an investigative committee (la commission Stasi) to examine how the principle of laïcité should apply in practice. It consisted of 20 people headed by Bernard Stasi, the ombudsman of France.

The Stasi Commission published its report on December 11 2003, ruling that ostentatious displays of religion violated the secular rules of the French school system

Prohibited items would include headscarves for Muslim girls, yarmulkes for Jewish boys, turbans for Sikh boys and large Christian crosses. The Commission recommended allowing the wearing of discreet symbols of faith such as small crosses, Stars of David or Fatima's hands. The previous system had left the decision to individual schools and their principals, some of whom chose to exclude Muslim girls who refused to remove their headscarves, but the majority of whom did not.

The Europeans have a much stronger sense of separation of church and state than the U.S. does

i didn't mean to imply that i "enjoy" any type of intolerance. i'm just pointing out that we are all guilty of it, while many of us refuse to recognize our own.

it's true the u.s. may be quite tolerant of "wog bullshit"on it's own soil, but since the english and the french backed off in the last century they (the u.s.) certainly manage to stick their noses into everyone elses business more than anyone else these days- especially the muslim countries. in my own country they are trying to dictate where we can build, who is allowed to live where, our actual geographical borders, when and for what we're allowed to go to war, etc.. so i take the fact that they don't pull this shit with jews (or muslims) in the u.s. itself with a grain of salt or two. or three. the french can make whatever laws they like about how people dress in france, but at least they aren't doing it in tunis and algiers and beirut anymore.

and the xtians. The U.S. has an unbelievable tolerance towards religious bullshit in general. Because of 9/11 the tolerance towards Muslims has diminished, but the U.S. still has this freedom of speech and freedom of religion concept which allows all nuts to create canary in the coal mine type of experiments.

And I know that we've discussed this before. The support of Israel causes all kinds of problems for the U.S. You have stated in the past the the support of the U.S. is not wanted nor necessary for Israel. Thus for the benefit of both of our countries, one would hope that the U.S. would not get involved. In this manner, GWB et al had the right approach.

The support of Israel causes all kinds of problems for the U.S.

i see. it's the support of tiny israel, and not the intolerance of 1.5 million muslims and their control of oil resources that's the problem. thanks for straightening me out.

blame the victim, why don't you.

1.5 billion, not million, sorry

Okay, the West Bank Arabs are the problem. Tiny Israel, oh I get it, you're speaking geographically.

who said anything about west bank arabs? and how skinny can these threads get anyway? let's see.

at least Merle was entertaining...

Do you really think these particular christian sect and especially that pastor aren't bigots? I don't care if they burn the Korans, and even would encourage it in the right context, but that doesn't say I'm wrong when I say they're bigots.

Of course they're bigots. So are you, the difference is you're bigotry is justified ;)

Jebus, Becker's style is rubbing on you, isn't it?

As for TDS clip:

  1. Sure, Jones legally has the right to burn the Qu'ran. As I said in response to jb, it's possible that if the media had ignored this small time pastor, we might be discussing more pressing matters. Once the story was all over the air waves, yeah, Muslim extremists had some material for the next gripe.

  2. Does anyone find it minutely interesting that Jones said he'd call off the burning if the "911 Mosque" (ICC) were moved from its current building locale? I'm getting ready to post in Red7's thread.

  3. Jon makes a good point that the other 2 of the big 3 world religions have some pretty extremist/world dominating test in their tomes. This is where the discussion needs to begin if we are to find a solution in our melting pot.

eek - we're losing replies - this one to jb:

bwahahahaha! I grew up on rock and roll and was quite the punker in college - amazing what that can do to increase your musical expression in the classics! I may look dainty, but have 2 older brothers and that's all that needs to be said.

[yes i removed the q]

JoAnn to Syngas:

link

In July 2003 the French President Jacques Chirac set up an investigative committee (la commission Stasi) to examine how the principle of laïcité should apply in practice. It consisted of 20 people headed by Bernard Stasi, the ombudsman of France.

The Stasi Commission published its report on December 11 2003, ruling that ostentatious displays of religion violated the secular rules of the French school system

Prohibited items would include headscarves for Muslim girls, yarmulkes for Jewish boys, turbans for Sikh boys and large Christian crosses. The Commission recommended allowing the wearing of discreet symbols of faith such as small crosses, Stars of David or Fatima's hands. The previous system had left the decision to individual schools and their principals, some of whom chose to exclude Muslim girls who refused to remove their headscarves, but the majority of whom did not.

The Europeans have a much stronger sense of separation of church and state than the U.S. does

i apologize for taking up space; i just want to see if i can read these. This if jb replying to NOrm:

who said anything about west bank arabs? and how skinny can these threads get anyway? let's see.

I think there is a reply or replies to this, but they're invisible.

I replied and said something like, "this is the limit to how thin they can get." I think JoAnn then replied. If you click on her name you should be able to see her comment there.

pfft - thx. She said

this is important

lol

What on earth are Stewart and Oliver doing likening Jeremiah Wright to Fred Phelps? Wright may be radical, but calling him an "extreme lunatic"? That's something you'd expect from Fucks News, not The Daily Show. Wright's "fault" is fundamentalism in the sense that he takes Jesus' proto-hippie philosophy seriously. That makes him radical, but hardly more lunatic than any other Christian out there.

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