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Overtime Discussion on Immigration

This is following a discussion from another post; thought I'd put the video here instead.

Next: some anarchist Mexican lover named Anthony Weiner making A Whole Lot of Fucking Sense, for a change. This guy's a politician? The whole Real Time ep was pretty good once Weiner (let me rephrase) Anthony came out in the latter part, by the way.



I think he hits the nail on the head. Got to make liquid the movement of people. Opening up and merging markets will necessate the opening up borders and merging of cultures. NAFTA should have only been passed with imigration reform.

Fucking liberals. Illegal immigrants are breaking the law in numerous ways. Besides being in the US illegally, they use counterfeit IDs and social security numbers, which are crimes. Those who are paid under the table do not pay federal income tax, social security tax, and a whole host of taxes that US citizens do. The truth is that Americans are willing to do any job out there, including the ones that people say only immigrants are willing to do. Americans just will not do them for $4.00 an hour, and that's where illegals depress wages at. The US lets over 2 million immigrants in legally every year through, more than any other country in the world. Who cares if these illegals are coming here for a better life. Everyone wants a better life, but we don't owe it to them.

The fact of the matter is that the reason so many people are up in arms over illegal immigration isn't so much racism as it the changing of the culture. The neighborhood I grew up in is nothing but Mexican restaurants and grocery stores now. It's become a rundown slum. I can't read half the signs up and down the streets anymore. Crime is way up as well. People see this happening where they live and it's alarming. Having to select English at the ATM, having to select English when you call to pay a bill, seeing commercials that are Spanish only on the TV. People see immigrants waving Mexican flags at the "Day Without Immigrants" protests and rightly question if they really want to be Americans are are just here to leech. Fact: Mexican immigrants send roughly 50 billion dollars to Mexico, making it the second largest source of income for that country behind oil sales. Heck, even in American public schools, two stupids were sent home for wearing shirts with the US flag on Cinco De Mayo because it offended Mexican students, who comprise 40% of the study body. You can't even wear a freaking shirt with the flag on it without offending someone.

Despite the fact that the majority of Americans support the Arizona illegal immigration law, it will be overturned. Why? Fear. Liberals continue to cry racism, and the last thing any politician wants is the be called a racist. In fact, liberals know the power of the word and use it as a weapon. Liberals will not do anything to protect their heritage and culture, but they will fight to the death to defend the rights of those who destroy that heritage and culture and take away those very rights from them. America and the West are doomed.

Well in your second paragraph you reveal your actual gripe, don't you?

Gee, tell us how you really feel.

Well, the fact of the matter is that we don't have a huge influx of Chinese illegals, or German illegals, or Somali illegals, it's overwhelmingly Mexican or central American illegals. There are roughly 470,000 illegal immigrants in Arizona alone, and it puts a HUGE burden on the state government and taxpayers. Phoenix is now the number 2 kidnapping capital of the world, behind Mexico City. Crime and gangs are out of hand in border towns. The stories of what is going on are horrible. You and I know that comprehensive immigration reform and a secure southwestern border will probably never happen specifically because of race. Politicians don't have the balls to back anything serious because they don't want to alienate the second largest group of voters in America, Latinos. The fact that illegal aliens are breaking numerous US laws is trumped by the color of their skin. It's political correctness and white guilt at it's worst. I know all the statistics in the world could never sway you or your ilk, since emotion trumps logic. It's funny, the same flaws common to Christian apologetics are found in so many arguments put forth by those who support liberal causes. I guess our children and grandchildren will have to suffer the consequences.

Emotion trumps logic, I agree. So what would be illogical with legalizing the ones without a criminal record? Or change the laws as per Weiner is suggesting? What are the downsides?

The two most frequent arguments seem to be economic reasons and a knee-jerk reaction of just shouting "they're ILLEGALS". The economic reasons are dubious at best, most of these people do contribute taxes and even don't get back SSN or even refunds, some of them don't even work with a fake SSN, but do taxes with an ITIN, so they are fully tax compliant. In fact this is the first time I've seen a politician acknowledge this on TV.

The knee-jerk reaction is just that. Kicking all of them out is not going to work on any realistic measure and terrorizing them into even more obscurity will just make things worse. Legalizing them will be easier, more cost effective, and most of all, much more humane. I'm just going to assume that you're not a fan of Reagan either.

About the crime angle, come on. Are you saying that "illegal" immigrants are more prone to crime than any "American" citizen? You guys complain about economic impact, well take a look back a couple of years and see which group of people has has far more "impact" on the economy, poverty and unemployment.

This is the same nativist stuff that has greeted every wave of immigration. And the argument you give for why it continues is totally contradictory. On the one hand, you say that " the majority of Americans support the Arizona illegal immigration law" and on the other you claim "Politicians don't have the balls to back anything serious because they don't want to alienate the second largest group of voters in America". The net effect of a politician holding an anti-immigration stance is either advantageous to the politician or it isn't – you can't have it both ways.

Solving illegal immigration isn't complicated - arrest the ranchers, farmers, restaurateurs, hotel owners, sweatshop owners, wealthy employers of gardeners, maids, etc. Throw 'em in jail, seize their property, and put it up for auction. The illegals will stop coming and the politicians will feel the wrath of real, important opponents of immigration reform.

So you complain about all the immigrant owned businesses and homes. So your complaint is that they are coming to America and investing in your community and providing jobs and tax revenue?

I don't see how any of your complaints are different than how people complained about all the Irish and Italians bringing in their foreign influences, music, holidays and working for less. We seemed to have managed.

I'm sure in Mexico they are complaining about how cheap, subsidized American corn flooded the market driving millions of small farmers out of work and how America was taking away their jobs. They have a choice, grow drugs and send it to America where the price is high thanks to prohibition, or move to America and find the job that was taken away from them.

In America it's the corporations hiring the cheap labor, busting the unions which kept out illegal labor, and NAFTA which helps to destroy the Mexican economy and send American manufacturing jobs down there. If employers didn't hire them then there wouldn't be a problem, so it isn't a Mexican's fault for wanting to have an honest job.

By the way, I'm an atheist who is conservative on most issues, including abortion and gay marriage, and I hate the fact that I'm lumped in with liberals because I'm a non-believer.

Yeah, that's my problem with "atheism" as well. Doesn't say much, does it?

Interesting Comments ryuhayabusa, and thank you for posting.

I do wonder about your cultural comment (not saying you are wrong) but what would happen if a primarily christian neighborhood was suddenly overtaken with athiests, with thier bumper stickers, and darwin fish. A change in culture, certainly, and likely a vocal opposition to that change.

You have certainly witness people lumping you in with people unlike yourself, and perhaps you are witnessing people do that to immigrants as well. Some are good, some are bad.

I think crime follows low income areas, and currently immigrants are (usually) in the lowest income bracket. Gangs also create crime, but they usually form in lower income areas too.

What I find alarming is the rate our illegal immigrants are comming in. They are not adding, but multiplying. We do have immigration rules for a reason, and when they are ignored, it does impact us. That fact is not arguable. The argument must be, how do we use the wealth of our county adn the workers that come to us seeking that wealth to our advantage, and how do we make proper rules to govern that.

I'm a Mother of seven children, a wife of an disable Veteran. when we serve this Country, we serve under one Flag, one Nation and One people(Americans). Under our Constitution and by-laws.We have ask no one to do anything that would go against human rights. No one has been denied anything due to their race ,gender or religious preference or lack of.We Only ask that everyone to obey the laws of this Country, that has been put in place and appear to work for everyone that want to be in here. We are expect to obey the laws in any country we enter legally.I'm a proud Black American .

Brenda, I got your comment but Norm will have to approve it. If you wanna get your comments published as soon as you make them, you might wanna register.

Already on board with the registration.

Fucking conservatives. Only the thickest and dumbest citizens are unaware that immigration is manipulated by both parties. When was the last time you heard about an employer being prosecuted for hiring illegals? I’m guessing the answer is “never.”Immigrants come over the border because they know they can find work. So are you saying that only liberals employ illegals? Turn off Fox News and Rush Limbaugh for a few days and try to think this through with a clear head. Your old neighborhood sucks because of poverty, not because of spics, and instead of gnashing your teeth every time you hear a few words of Spanish try learning another language yourself. Spanish is a language, not an ideology.


Ae we imperialists forcing American culture down the throats of the world or are we on the brink of having our culture overrun? I say neither. Globalization is happening. Harmonizing economic, social, cultural, legal, moral and other 'rules' is a bitch of a process and we've been delaying (manipulated into not) dealing with it. Those with mouths to feed (re:poor immigrants) and those with money to make (re:corporations) will keep pushing globalization forward. Only say we have is in how much pain and suffering is endured as that process continues. There is no stopping it. The sooner we get with the program the better.

I say we get back on the offensive - 51st State anyone? - Spanish and Chinese taught in every k-12 classroom? - Mandatory year abroad for all college students?

I'm tried of all the limp dick conservative talk from people who don't want to take on the future and rather coast in their fictional version of the past.

I'm sure I'm breaking some bias rule here, because of the way this issues is discussed often pisses me off. Maybe it's the 'Vino Bias' = forming opinions while drinking wine.

Spanish and Chinese taught in every k-12 classroom?

Why not just mandatory learning of another language, not just the big 2? Or make either Spanish and Mandarin (too many Chinese dialects to cover in k-12!) for global relations reasons and 1 additional language for good emasure? The U.S. is waaaaaay behind on this front.


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