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Why People Ignore Vaccine Denialists



An easy way to debunk homeopathy. Take two people to a bar. Give the reasonable person non-alcoholic beer, give the homeopath real beer. Let's see who gets drunk faster. According to homeopathy, the less alcohol means the greater effect.

Thanks CMTJ,

When you find good links you should email norm or I.

is to disregard the deaths of babies shortly after ( 1 - 11 days ) vaccination, being a denialist?

or the fact that it hasnt been properly tested yet, or the fact that on the label, it says it shouldnt be used on pregnant women.

i dont think just for being careful, one should be labelled a denialist

Vaccines are not just a mix of chemicals and there are some cases of bad batches but unless that is somehow more than the disease would kill, how is that a reason to stop taking the vaccine.

Like norm said, thye don't know if that is even the case from in the article you link to.

More people die from contaminated spinach.

Interesting about alternative medicine. Would Rescue Remedy fall in that category? My dog is getting radiation therapy from one of the leading animal oncologists in the country. When I told him how nervous the dog was coming to the treatments (I asked if I could give him a benedryl which makes him woozy or if that would be a problem with the anesthesia they use), he told me to try Rescue Remedy. He said he has seen some good results - especially with cats but, dogs also. He said it does seem to calm them.

So you have a container?

the website doesn't mention any active ingredients. does the bottle?

In humans the calming effect seems to be most likely sitting down and drinking a full glass of water.

First, here is a list of the ingredients.

I've already written here that I think we as a society over-medicate, but I also understand why medications exist: they are useful, and help those in need.

Here's my basic take on unapproved medicines: if they don't work for you, don't use them. Do some research and make sure that the ingredients won't harm you (I have done this). Yes, it's true, I can only provide anecdotal evidence in this argument, so you can take everything said from here on out as invalid. However, when I was unable to afford insurance, I was damn careful about when I'd go to a doctor. Was there any other, cheaper way to recuperate from an illness or injury?

Sometimes doing nothing would allow a problem to take its course. Certainly you can argue that homeopathy amounts to nothing, and I can get on board with you. However, if someone takes a homeopathic medicine and gets well, that course of action is cheaper than taking an anti-biotic. If someone takes homeopathic concoctions in succession to no good effect, they are really being foolish. I'll allow for a little fool hardy self-medicating if the end result is positive. So sue me.

My mom has had positive results from acupuncture. Yes, I've read and participated in the prior discussions, and agreed with Orac, so spare me some chastising. Here's what I will say (again anecdotal): her doctor is a licensed neurologist who will prescribe my mom meds when she feels acupuncture isn't helping my mom. However, this doesn't happen often. I've already mentioned that maybe it's just the TLC that is helping my mom, but I'm sorry; i won't be writing off acupuncture wholesale in the bargain. My mom's on a lot of meds for other health issues and needed to find some kind of treatment that could help her with foot problems that didn't involve more prescriptions, as each drug has some effect on the other, creating complications each time something new appears in her pill regimen. As it turns out, the acupuncture treatment (I include the time that doctor and patient spend talking, time the patient is left to relax with the needles inserted, as well as the needles themselves) not only helps my mom's feet, but here breathing issues as well, which the doctor addressed during her 1st interview with my mom.

For me, I've ingested herbs when sick or feeling borderline sick (catching colds from students sucks; teachers, you know what I'm talking about). My favorite is echinacea, and this seems to work for me. If it didn't, I would bother. Sometimes i know that I can just get more sleep or eat yogurt (ooo - yogurt - more controversy!), but I do have a regular regimen with echinacea that has worked for my health. Also, if I run into something, i tend to bruise, and the bruise stays for awhile. Rubbing the wound and ice can help, but there will be a bruise.

A few years back, I was in a nasty car accident - collision with a deer - and decided to pull out all stops. You can tell me that the arnica montana didn't prevent any bruising, and I'll shrug. I don't care if it did or didn't after my 1 and 3/4 car flip, all I can say is I wanted to make sure. Yes, obviously I went to the emergency room, but my care there wasn't really that focused on the small stuff like potential bruises. Obviously, I wouldn't have taken something to replace the staples in my head, but I DO wish I had a friend remove them for the price of a lunch rather than paying through the nose for a doctor to remove them in 5 minutes. And no, I don't consider the last task a "complementary" form or medicine.

As for vaccines, I am for them. I am generally healthy from taking the measures of sleep and good diet, but am not invincible. Still, I'm in the low risk group, so I only consider getting a vaccine if I consider it necessary. I've seen enough bad with swine flu that I'm considering paying for the freaking thing so I'm not out from work 9 or so days. So far I've found other things to do with my time, but the year ain't over yet.

The doctor is in and he thinks you're suffering from belief perseverance, the phenomenon in which people cling to their initial beliefs and the reasons why a belief might be true, even when the basis for the belief is discredited. :)

Oh I'm wholly aware of this. However, the methods above were way cheaper and less invasive than prescribed meds and the net effect was positive. I'm happy with any placebo effect. =shrug= :)

I can say I looked into things to alleviate congestion, and ma huang came up. Bad bad stuff for me, given the research. When people began taking ephedra and I looked at the ingredients I smelled trouble. My research on potential side effects was done before easy internet access - but you can now find this. I was not surprised with all of the problems that followed.

There are other things that came up when I was looking for help, and if it looked bad, or needed a small test (ex: bee pollen for energy - small test revealed a no-go for me as I'm allergic) I I stayed far away. Sleep is better for energy and many things, as life would have it.

Here's one tiny area of infection prevention where I can agree with Bill Maher: wash your hands and do it well. Not a cure, not 100% effective, but helpful in prevention. If someone sneezes or coughs in your face, or sneezes and touches a door handle that you then touch 5 minutes later on the way to a meeting, well, you're now in the running for an infection. Thus meds, vaccines.

Are you also aware that tap water works even better than Echinacea and it costs less. So says the Chinese fellow on the corner of feel good and get well.


Silly chinese herbalist; it's great against ear-nose-throat infections.

Yeah, the new agey stuff ain't a good pill to swallow. For me echinacea's been better than water, but then I've been filtering my water since living in charm city/Bawlmer. Damn carbon filter! :)

Folk remedies: ethno-botanist (not the would-be DC politico) Mark Plotkin did several years of research in the Amazon. He kept getting different uses for various botanicals, so one day he placed his cache of herbs and other plants in the middle of a village square and various people came to speak with him. A villager would give one set of uses for an herb, another would provide another set. Plotkin recorded all of the information for future testing.* And so I have wondered if the reason some medical trials yield conflicting results is just due to different people's physical make-up.

It's one of the things that may be best equated with wearing your lucky socks for a sports or arts performance. If it's a placebo effect, bring it on; it seems to work for me. Interestingly, this study that poo poohs echinacea was co-authored by

Dr. Rudolph Bauer, a professor of pharmaceutical biology at the Karl-Franzens University in Graz, Austria, said the study should be repeated with other echinacea species and with other preparations and with different doses.

"I am always in favor of further studies," Bauer said. He himself takes echinacea and will continue to take it, he says.

The book, *Tales of a Shaman's Apprentice, wasn't so much about future uses of the pharmacopia he discovered as it was the unknown potential of medicines in the South American rain forest and the effect the devastation of the rain forests is having/may continue to have. I haven't read Medicine Quest, but apparently if you are up for wading through more stories, you'll get more results from discoveries he and others made.

I just checked and this study is one of the ones considered in the one from Ames (below). This one says no on nasal infections, but the Ames one says echinacea could increase efficacy of flu vaccines in elderly population. You want I send you some capsules as a belated birthday present? ;~)

I am curious if you have a science search engine that you recommend. On of my frustrations while using the google was that paid spots appear first, followed by the ones with the most hits. People often go to the easiest form of information regardless of accuracy or validity and reduced bias. Even if I found something to support myself (or dispute my argument), I knew it wasn't useful.

I checked out 2 sites today: Scirus and Novo/seek. Scirus seems designed similarly to google, without paid spots. Novo/seek seems more lodged in academic articles, although there are some articles that came up with caveats as to sources, so it may just be the search I'm performing. If you have a suggestion, send it up.

Hi, I just returned from extracting my foot from my mouth. Sorry about the poor word choice above; I was borrowing from the Ames study.

Perhaps saying acupuncture and even homeopathy "don't work" sounds a bit too dismissing for many people. What is actually meant is that they don't work beyond placebo something that you seem willing to accept.

The problem then is of ethics. Is it ethical to deceive the patient in that particular case? That's what a doctor has to ask her/himself.

And that's not taking into account the ones who profit by deceiving and many times just plain lying. It's different to believe some old family tradition will stop your pain or your cold symptoms, but to believe something someone else concocted for profit, like magnetic or titanium patches, or homeopathy, seems like something to call BS on, however "cheap" it is.

You know, I was thinking about it and, I'm sorry. I just don't see why some things shouldn't work. I know marijuana leaves work - smoked or ingested. I know coca leaves as a tea work, mushrooms, jimson weed. Tea leaves as a stimulant and coffee beans, too. My friend was in Uruguay and they all drink yerba mate. And, for cats - you tell me catnip doesn't make them react.

I'm going to try the Rescue Remedy on my dog and I'll let you know. I do know he is not subject to the placebo effect and I won't be in the room so he won't be getting it by proxy.

Oh, I'm not familiar with Rescue Remedy, I was just talking about alt-meds in general. The thing is that a lot of things fall under that umbrella, and some like herbs probably have effects (secondary effects too). The problem is that they're not properly studied, or they have been studied but aren't effective. No one is saying that they shouldn't be studied, only that the claims made even before thorough study are most of the time facetious.

I have heard from a nutritionist friend that alt-meds don't have any side-effects for instance. Whatever in the world does that mean? If it has a primary effect, it's silly to say with such certainty to say it doesn't have any secondary ones.

And then there's the problem with alt-meds whose claims contradict science directly, like magical patches, homeopathy and acupuncture (with the chi and meridians stuff), which are another completely different class of alt-meds.

haha, I think I meant "fallacious", not facetious. On my sixth coffee cup.

In the anecdotes I gave you, I'd have to go against deceit. Mom was pretty reluctant to try acupuncture, but experimented. From my conversations with her, her doctor hasn't pushed anything on her. The premise has been I can help you, not that acupuncture is a wonder method. In the sum total, it's been helpful for Mom, who's also a proponent of if it doesn't work, don't use/partake in it.

Actually, her experience has me thinking that western medicine should be paying attention to things like acupuncture for doctor-patient relationships. Ma's acupuncturist sat and listened to mom, asked her numerous questions, and treated her well. I do know a homeopath (don't go to him) who does the same kind of thing. I can say that if a doctor dismisses me I won't be back, but some people don't have that option (I could go on about the military medical system, but will...must resist). In addition, sending people home as quickly as possible after treatment/surgery/etc. has been touted as returning the patient to friendly surroundings when in fact it may remove the patient from a medically savvy environment that would be best for recovery.

I've never heard stories of unattentive or dismissive non-institutional medicinal health care providers; maybe there are stories out there. Anyone who simply says take this and all will be well disregards the needs of his/her patient at best, and is a huckster at worst. To some degree, this is what some of the vaccine wary are bucking against. I think someone else alluded to this in the last vax/anti-vax thread. Yes people should do the research, looking beyond the McCarthy cascade of information. In the case of taking echinacea, I'm not hurting others, and as you noted, I'm willing to accept what is/is not. Avoiding a vaccine can hurt more than just the original patient.

If that article leads you not to use vaccines at all then yes you are a denialist. Don't you want to know the cause of death. It is certainly prudent to remove the vaccine from the market while they are determining if it was the cause of death, but it is not a reason to avoid the use of vaccines in general.


that article was an example, one of many, to help make a point, not as the basis of the argument.

the fact is, ( ill post no links to avoid confusion ) the vaccines have not had enough time to have been tested for safety or effectiveness..

and people are dying, being crippled, losing babies etc etc etc as a result of having had the vaccines.

You present no evidence that the vaccine was responsible for the death of the children. You don't say what vaccine hasn't been tested for safety or effectiveness. Are you claiming that of all vaccines. If so you are terribly ill-informed. The efficacy of vaccines is well established and although they are not totally risk free they certainly better than no vaccine at all.

I think the reason you don't post any links is that have no evidence that vaccines, in general, are dangerous.

If you think you have evidence to support your view present it, but remember because one event follows another doesn't necessarily prove a casual relationship.

Are the deaths from vaccines you think demand a moratorium of use, bigger than a bread box?

Really everything you say can be true and your conclusion can still be completely wrong.

depends how big your breadbox is i guess..

im yet to see the urgency, or any supposed pandemic, to make me meekly accept any and every inoculation the gov decides to roll out for whatever reason.

ill have to concede to an expert about being wrong, i wouldnt know.

what makes you so sure there is no problem with any of these vaccines.

Well, first the need for a vaccine for this particular pandemic is a seperate issue than the general safety and effectiveness of vaccines.

To the H1N1. I think there is only evident that is is more infectous but not more deadly. So it will kill a fair number of people. It also has real potential to mutate like the spanish flu did. That disease specifically killed healthy people.

Generally neither you nor the anti vaccine crowd in general seem to be able to show that vaccines are more likely to cause side effects than most any other medication. Yes there are rare bad batches, some alergies and then some extrordinarily rare reactions.

On the other hand when you hear anyone talk about a "cure" for anything, what they really mean is "something like a vaccine or an antibiotic" those are really the only cures for diseases we have found.

Why am I sure they are safe? Well we have been vaccinating for a few hundered years now, and all the data from those hundreds of years has pointed to the vaccines being safe than the disease, they elimiated some diseases entirely and their side effects have been reduced as safer and safer version have been produced.

My bread box question was not to say that all vaccinations are 100% safe, just that a small number of deaths does not outweigh the huge number who have been saved.

The coalition of religios folks, homeopaths and new agers need some evidence if they want a real discussion

To the H1N1. I think there is only evident that is is more infectous [...]

??? Do you mean in comparison to the seasonal flu? I haven't heard that.

If it's a placebo effect, bring it on

We had this discussion about Placebo around the Wired aticle. Placebo doesn't actually make you better, it justs gets you to report that you feel better and also gets you to do things like exercise and eat the way a better person would.

you don't need to take flower juice to get a full placebo effect.

Did you read that web site? I got this far...

Impatiens: For those who act and think quickly, and have no patience for what they see as the slowness of others. They often prefer to work alone. Teaches empathy and understanding of and patience with others. We've found it very fast-acting in alleviating an impatient attitude and lowering stress.

I mean its pure transparent sillyness. Do they also offer daisy juice if you feel dazed, and hiacents for high people, and dogwood flowers for erectile disfunction?

The truth for your dog is that the biggest factor in his psychology is your stress. If spraying the flower juice in his mouth distracts him and makes you think you have addressed his stress, it propbably does lead to a calmer dog. So would a prayer or just some reason and some focus on controlling your own emotions.

Reason is free, prayer costs you your grasp on reality. Flower juice costs you a little reality and a little money.

Ah - I re-read your original post 1st

the website doesn't mention any active ingredients. does the bottle?

At first, I just looked for ingredients (cause I glossed over your post), then I went back and read the website. I got caught up in other conversation so I didn't get back to you. Hah, I should've realized you'd be back!

Tain't my dog for the rescue remedy. If Jill's dog does better, it's up to her whether she keeps a bottle on hand.

As for echinacea, there are some ingredients in it that may have an effect that hasn't been tested, or again, affect different people differently. (and hey - take capsules, not a tincture, just so you can respond with capsule instead of flower water). Here are some chemicals and nutrients in echinacea: enzymes, iron, polysaccharides, potassium, protein, resin, vitamins A, C, E, and xylose. I keep running across inclusion of caffeic acid (unrelated to caffeine), which comes up with varying pluses and minuses in studies.

So it's possible the jury is out on my li'l capsule friends. Hell, while I was searching for a link for chemical make-up, I stumbled upon a study that may support claims about echniacea, albeit lightly, and isn't from a naturopathic institution; it's from the Department of Biology, University of Ottawa, Ottawa, Ontario, Canada.

I just remembered there's a colleague that I haven't run into for a few years, and guess what his area of expertise is? Biology, with an emphasis on botany and virus-immune system interactions. Soooo, here's a published study you may want to consider. Keep in mind that he and I never discussed his research, except to note that echinacea grows well n Des Moines.

So, it does seem to work well for me. I've read enough studies that say it shouldn't. Now we can read some that says I may be spending my money more wisely than you suggest.

"The truth for your dog is that the biggest factor in his psychology is your stress. If spraying the flower juice in his mouth distracts him and makes you think you have addressed his stress, it propbably does lead to a calmer dog. So would a prayer or just some reason and some focus on controlling your own emotions." Wow - seems pretty insulting.

Buddy, my 100#+ Great Dane mix was a victim of abusive neglect. He has come around so much, but, he does not like it when I'm not around and it took two technicians to handle him (and, Honey, my pit bull is just the opposite - she loves the vet and any other stranger).

Since the oncologist is the one that suggested it, I found it interesting. I would've just given him a Benedryl but I want to make sure whatever it is does not interact with the anesthesia. Anyway - like I said above, I don't see where it isn't worth a try. Aspirin came from willow bark. All kinds of plants have very measurable effects.

I don't mean to imply that you are emotionally erratic. I understand the stresses of dogs with seperation anxiety. Sorry if that is how that sounded.

Similar to what ceasar Milan might recomend, I am only suggesting that it is your reaction to the item that might be the major reason for the dogs calming and that you could likely reproduce that calming without the herbs.

Maybe there is a real drug in there having some effect. I somehow doubt it is very strong or the possible side effects would likely get this product pulled from the shelf.

BTW, your Pit is very cute.

Isn't she? :) BTW - Buddy doesn't mind being left alone - he just doesn't want to be left at the vet but, he's getting better.

its a bit of a worry when the manufacturers tell you not to use the stuff


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