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8 - The Mormon Proposition trailer


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Related to this in some way is also this worthwhile clip:

Thought Experiment (Youtube video)

i'm not sure who looks worse in this clip. the gays are all tearful and whiny and like "why do they hate us so much? they don't even know us" and those nasty old mormons are all like staunch and unbending and judgemental-like.

ooh yuk, now there's two guys kissing! that is like, so gross.

re: erick's link- as a breeder who thinks gayness is kinda stupid but not any stupider than many other forms of human stupidity many of which i am guilty of, this was an interesting thought experement. way too long- hey, i get the idea, it's rough being "in the closet".

but doesn't "in the closet" describe every teenager with any depth of character ever? i mean, you're 13. your whole life you've been secretly formulating a worldview which would be shocking to those who know you and the revelation of which will catupult you into the midst of an ancient and ongoing debate- a debate that is a life or death matter for you.

like i said, i'ts not only gays who experience this angst, it's anyone with a brain. but i still sympathize, of course, with anyone actually going through it.

and speaking of human stupidity: as a smoker, i think smokers are way more persecuted than gays. fwiw. although i admit they don't hang you in iran for smoking, it's a lot easier to be a gay in san fran than a smoker. :)

You gotta organize your thoughts there Jonathan. Why do you think teh gay is stupid? Why do you think a smoker's situation is in any way comparable to gays? Do gays bother you and make you cough when you're near them? Does living with a gay who is gay indoors raise your chances of lung cancer, respiratory and heart problems? Should they make gays illegal in elevators?

Does living with a gay who is gay indoors raise your chances of lung cancer, respiratory and heart problems?

you know what it raises your chances of, andyo, but i can't say it because this is a family blog.

ok, what the hell: it raises your chances of BEING GAY!

:) relax, dude, i'm not the "anti gay guy".

Should they make gays illegal in elevators?

you mean they aren't?

listen andyo dahlink: i am jewish. a lot of people, specifically people who run/comment on this blog, think this is "kinda stupid" in spite of the fact we are born this way. it doesn't send me into a hissy fit.

You are Jewish?

Which way are you born? as smokers?

Conflating Jewish belief with Jewish ethnicity again? You are born only with one of those.

look, maybe the smoker analogy was over the top, i was joking, i apologize. (omegavader is way harshing my mellow below over this) but i think the jewish analogy stands. we aren't hated for our beliefs, for the most part (with the exception of christian and muslim theologians who hate on us for not accepting their "prophets" new take on things) but for just being jewish. very much like people hate gays for just being gay. i say the anology has merit.

and, if you want to take it further, gays are involved in their own form of "blockbusting" in which they are vilified as strangers and outsiders in spite of the fact that a certain portion of humanity has been gay since time immemorial, and this historical fact is certainly no secret.

The gays predate the jews. That wasn't something I was expecting to hear from you.

Maybe they are gods chosen people?

of course they predate the jews. god does seem to choose people who are, by their very nature going to be sorely tested by the universe, so who knows? if someone asked my advice about becoming jewish, or gay, i would advise them against it. these are not easy paths- although in both cases i suppose there is much fun to be had for those not easily offended.

I know that smokers have to smoke outside of buildings now, but their sins are accepted by the church, at least in this country. They can marry as well.

This year is the 1st in a long, quizzical string when I haven't had a Mormon student. The last one - gay (bi on occasion, but gay) - insists that gays have been in his church for years. "Someone had to design those beautiful buildings!"

I know that smokers have to smoke outside of buildings now, but their sins are accepted by the church, at least in this country.

what church? what are you talking about, unitarianism? and as far as smoking outside of buildings, the key question is which buildings? bars and pubs, the traditional smokers havens? THIS is an abomination.

1st - I believe that Christian churches will take in smokers. No, they can't smoke in the church, but they can sit in the pews as sinners and plot their paths to redemption. Or something of that nature.

2nd - Smoking outside all buildings, if you live in the states that ban smoking in all public buildings. It's really nice for my friends who live near hospitals, cause the smokers tend to leave their butts on nearby sidewalks and lawns.

I used to smoke myself - as a juvenile delinquent. Then the crunchy granola took over my being, et voila!

So if you mean that having to smoke outside of the former paradises is an abomination, Iowa's right up there on the list.

Is that the secret mason handshake @ 0:36?

i caught that too. :) maybe it's a secret mormon handshake.

Johnathan Becker's moronic analogies aside, this is a generational fight. Proposition 8, as terrible as it is (not to mention asinine -- what kind of constitution allows an amendment with a mere majority?), is temporary. The intolerance of the gay community and the perceived threat to marriage is the entrenchment of tradition among old folk who just don't know any better. Polling data shows this across the board -- in time, the supporters of prop 8 will die off and those of us who have no qualms with gay marriage will become the mainstream. Fight though the religious may, the moral good will nonetheless win out in the end. They're dying off; we're not.

They're dying off; we're not.

that's funny, that's exactly what the breeders say about the gays. and with considerably more evidential mojo.

What kind of breeders are you hanging out with? No one, even homophobes, that I've ever seen believes gays are dying off. There's no reason for it, they've been around longer than the Jews. In contrast, there is plenty of reason that homophobes will die off since they're the older folks.

i only hang out with breeders certified as bigotry-free. (that's not really true, no one is 100% bigotry free, anyway...) but even they can't help noticing that true homosexuals, as a rule, don't reproduce, and if they do they don't raise their children as gays- at least, not that they're telling us about.

also, maybe you're too young to remember but it wasn't that long ago that the gay community was hit by an infamous plague targetting them specifically. i remember much talk by both breeders and queers about it's (the community's) immanent disappearance. although i think that's somewhat under control now.

if you're talking about "dying off" as a result of old age, well that happens to all of us- if we're lucky.

Lets see if I understand your reasoning. Gays are dying off: a. Because they don't reproduce b. Because when they do reproduce the children aren't gay c. Because of AIDS, which specifically targets gay people.

If b is correct, point b supercedes and makes point a mute, since whether gays do or do not reproduce would not affect the gay population if their offspring would be straight regardless.

Also regarding point b: If gay people didn't and don't primarily come from gay families, then they must have come from straight families. If they come from straight families, the reproductive rate of gays/their alleged tendency to raise straight people is irrelevant to the growth or decline in the population of gay people.

Re: c, HIV doesn't/didn't "target [gays] specifically." Most people with AIDS are straight, and most gay people don't have AIDS. Regardless, as we just established, gay people don't primarily come from gays' reproduction, and therefore there would still be growth in the gay population.

If sexual orientation is a choice, could you please elaborate on when and how you chose yours? Did you change your mind later?

Lets see if I understand your reasoning.

as i thought i made clear, it's not my reasoning, it's just stuff i hear from both gays and non-gays. for all i know, everyone is full of shit, i make no claims to expertise in the matter.

i never felt that i had a choice regarding my own sexual orientation, no, but i've met plenty of gays who have and are plenty happy to tell you all about how their choice was the smart one. i have no idea what the stats are on this, yes, i understand some/most gays feel they have no choice, and they have biological data to back this up as a genetic "disposition", similar to research on alcoholism i've seen. but i don't have a strong opinion about it- my worldview does not stand or fall based on genetic, scientific or philosophical determinism.

to quote the great steve martin- "i was born a poor black child".

Jesus Becker, sometimes I wonder why I let you on...

There's so much that's wrong (assertions, implications and assumptions) only on that first paragraph, that I don't know what to make of the second one. Are you joking again?

About the third paragraph, statistically the older people now are the anti-gay ones, so it's just a matter of time before people who don't give a shit about who others marry are a majority. That's all that was meant.

"jesus becker"-

hey, i like that! you may now refer to me as "jesus becker", or jb for short. :)

statistically the older people now are the anti-gay ones

i thought we were talking about gays and breeders, not gays and anti-gays. my mistake. you mean that in the new world of sweetness and light brought about by information technology, the fuddy-duddys are a dying breed? hmmm. this argument may have some merit. but i wouldn't bet on the "new breed" being free of bigotry. they'll just be better informed bigots.

you guys (i'm guessing you're gay?) should figure out what the jews did long ago and get with the program: you're a minority, an often despised minority, and you always will be. plan your strategy accordingly.

You're guessing I'm gay? Why?

The fuddy duddies are not the dying breed. We're talking about current old people. Younger people today, the future old people, are more inclined to not give a damn. It's hard to go from being a non-bigot to being a bigot, or to raise one if you aren't.

Younger people today, the future old people, are more inclined to not give a damn.

well if they're more inclined to not give a damn than the current generation of old people we are well and truly fucked.

sorry if my guess was wrong, it certainly doesn't matter to me.

The opposition to the rights of others on religious grounds, claiming to know the voice of God - makes me ashamed to have been born in this country.

The veracity of the judgmental religious elements pushing political agendas is absolutely contrary to the letter and spirt of the United States constitution (not to mention the biblical teachings of Christ, "let you who is without sin cast the first stone", "for all have sinned and come short of the glory of God").

It's time to start prosecuting the individuals in these churches breeding so much hate.

Becker:

well if they're more inclined to not give a damn than the current generation of old people we are well and truly fucked. sorry if my guess was wrong, it certainly doesn't matter to me.

Why are we fucked?

Just curious, would you have voted YES or NO on prop 8?

wait, prop 8 was the one REPEALING the right for gays to marry, or giving them that right- i can never remember which.

whatever, i'm not, in general, in favor of marriage. it's a necessary evil, a group of restrictions placed on couples by society the original intention of which was to protect women, otherwise powerless, from being thrown out in the street by their stupid husbands. i don't see a real need for it in the modern world, it's caused me nothing but suffering. if the gays want of their own free will to take on these legal obligations in return for a few pitiful "rights" or some percieved "acceptance" by society i say, let 'em have at it. i think they will, like so many others, be bitterly disappointed.

if two people want to share their lives together "come what may, until the end of time", that's their business, i think, not the governments or the clergy's. i don't make the rules, of course, but it's hard for me to understand why anyone would want to take on more obligations, both as a human and a citizen than they naturally incur just by being born.

people are just nuts, you know? gays included.

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