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Links With Your Coffee - Saturday




Obama must deliver on health care

probably written by someone who is overweight, doesn't exercise regularly, doesn't eat a lot of fruits and veggies and doesn't eat red meat sparingly. Wants my tax dollars to repair the damage that a life of neglecting one's health has havocked.

What say ye, let the fat fuckers die they deserve it, personal responsibility and all that. We're perfect. Actions have consequences we have no responsibility for our fellow men. We don't use more in government services than we pay for? We don't want to spend OUR tax dollars on anyone or anything we don't approve of. We are libertarians, and libertarians look out for number one. Oh we pretend to care, but always find GOOD reasons not to put our money on the line . We just get all judgmental and see the flaws in others never suspecting that they are the same flaws we fail to see in ourselves.

Oh and statement that it must be written by someone who fit your stereotype was also wrong, but hey don't let the facts get in the way of your simple-minded conjecture.

We are libertarians, and libertarians look out for number one.

Perhaps we can create some sort of loophole so L's can pay less taxes and then just die in the street if they don't have the money for treatment.

I may be wrong of course. It may just be another heartless Republican who has his, and whose mother didn't teach him to share.

Just as likely they are 19 and never vote.

Wow! Amazing comment.

Being in California, one of the bastions of health nuts (BTW, he forgot stress), I don't know one person that doesn't get the fact that wellness costs (including pregnant girlfriends) not to mention my athletic friends broken bones.

And just recently one of my exs - super healthy, avid swimmer - they had to operate on his kidney (shaped weird which isn't uncommon from what the doctor said). It meant he was building up a kidney stone and cyst (he never had any pain - came out in a exam). It wasn't a problem then but it would become one. $57,000 with two day stay at the hospital. He only paid $500 because of insurance.

For Max's persona I'm voting for the guy with no girlfriend who never flosses. Who else would be unaware of medical costs?

what book did Bush ban ? link doesnt work

Libertarianism, if that is even a word—and I hope to fuck that it's not*—libertarianism is the philosophy of kids who could never get over reading Ayn Rand in high school. Does the Kato Institute still want to turn over Social Security to the stock market? Why not just go to Vegas and put it all down on black at the roulette wheel? Talk about totally taking responsibility for your own actions! They might even comp us breakfast when we lose it all.

*My spellcheck accepts “libertarianism” so I guess that makes it a real word

Bush didn't ban the book in question--actually, a complaint from a parent led to the banning of a book that Laura Bush had placed on her "top ten books for all ages" list. The book is called "Bless Me, Ultima."

I couldn't get the link to work either, but googling "laura bush banned book" turned up several links related to the story.

Now I know why the older I get the less can I focus on the big questions (why did Berlioz choose the viola for "Harold in Italy"?) -- I'm too vulnerable to distractions.

My other big question of the day is something I hope Sci-Am can address sometime: does big money somehow murder brain cells or are mega-millions merely attracted to morons?

i think there is a problem which is that we assume that health care is a basic right, like it's granted in the constitution. i'm the son of a doctor so i have a different view. the current system is incredibly socialized, every time someone without insurance rolls into the ER we foot the bill. You have all these kids who are 25 and go i don't need to pay for insurance, and then they'll get hit by a car and be bounced around till they end up in ER. or they'll go to the doctor with a heart problem and be denied till they end up there. it costs everyone billions. insurance should be mandatory for all citizens and you should have a choice between medicare or a private company. then stricter controls need to be placed on those private companies to drive down costs and improve coverage. doctors in the end are rendering a service, and everyone ignores their interests. can you imagine every time you did work for someone you had to have 3 other people fight for your payment? that's ludicrous. no one considers the effect not properly paying american doctors will have on the system. the job is getting close to being completely undesirable. high stress, high risk and low pay a viable career does not make. and the greatest threat to american health care is a drop off in good doctors.

You got it mostly right except that what do they do with the folks that simply can't afford insurance, fat or skinny what do we do with them? If you simply turn them away, those with life threatening would likely start entering our hospitals with guns a blazing, those without would likely go home and suffer until it is life threatening. And if you give folks the option of buying gotv or private, the wealthy would go private and the lower classes wouldn't be able to subsidize the poor.

Healthcare isn't a right in the same way speech or religion is, in that it requires action while free speech only requires that no one take it away. But Healthcare has proven to be a necessity for maintaining a functioning industrialized nation as well as a necessity for maintaining the basic human rights of the poor everywhere in the world.

And Obesity is mostly the function of Diet in our society and for the poor diet is largely determined by budget. Go to a super market, find the lowest cost per calorie and you will find, subsidized corn syrup, bleached flour and fatty meat.

Personal responsibility is a fools errand, people are only as responsible as they are educated on being responsible.

let the fat fuckers die they deserve it

Norm, considering that 64% of Americans are overweight or obese the poster probably is overweight :)

Maybe exaggerate my notion into a caricature (let the fat fuckers die) if you like, so you can more easily refute it, but don't you certainly think there is some truth to the notion that people simply need to take more personal responsbility for their health?

Seems your itching for a fight or something, because I didn't say anyting about not giving them health care.

Give them health care, but please, let's expect more from ourselves.

If 64% of the nation are fat lazy people who simply eat crap, and they over eat it, and they get and sick and expect pills and surgeries to make them better, then health care costs are simply going to bankrupt us all--or at least deprive us of a lot of other possible social services.

You seem to be saying that you don't want your tax dollars to go to those who are irresponsible. How is that different from wanting to deny them healthcare? How do you intend to enforce your demand for 'personal responsibility.' Who determines what 'personal responsibility ' is. Do you treat someone who has a genetic tendency to be overweight the same as someone who has no such problem. Do you take children away from parents who don't instill good eating habits in their children. How about other social ills? Do you also want your tax dollars withheld from those who don't get the most out of their public education, perhaps kick them out of school if they don't measure up. There is no question that we need to do a better job of educating the public on a myriad of issues. What specifically do you suggest to solve the problem besides, I don't want MY TAX money to go to those I consider irresponsible ?

Further your pairing of the word lazy with fat is evidence of a bias against overweight Americans.

As to your statement that it was probably written by an overweight American while true is a classic ad hominem attack. You attempt to discount the argument by attacking the person.

doesn't exercise regularly, doesn't eat a lot of fruits and veggies and doesn't eat red meat sparingly.

was probably written by someone who has never struggled with a weight problem.

Personal responsibility is a fools errand.

My point and in fewer words, thanks.

In Spain health care IS in the constitution. Why shouldn't it be a basic right, like national security? Insurance companies are bullshit and should be eliminated. They cost us billions without providing so much as a bandaid. What happens when they go belly-up like these sleazy banking institutions? Good luck gettting your broken body fixed. Wake up and take a look at the societies that do a much better job on this issue that the US.

What specifically do you suggest to solve the problem besides, I don't want MY TAX money to go to those I consider irresponsible ?

maybe doctors need to tell people: "hey retard, if you don't take care of your body you're going to have all kinds of problems" instead of just giving them pills for depression so they don't feel bad about their poor health, pills for weight loss and cholesterol busters, and pills to help them sleep and pills to help them wake up...

good questions Norm, and I don't have all the answers. Just proposing the perspective that socalized medicine in a country of people who top the charts in being overweight and eating copious portions of crap is likely to be a terrifically expensive endeavour. As we live longer and as medical science advances, the individuals costs that each person could rack up, could far exceed what each individuals pays into such a system. Resulting in less money for other social services, higher taxes, and possibly a decrease in the quality of service.

I live here in Japan and we have national health care, but the quality of service is much lower than what you'll find in the US. The queues are long, the equipment is old, and the doctors are not as knowledgable. Luckily the Japan have one of the healthiest diets in the world, because I hope to avoid ever having to step back into one of the anitiquated hospitals here.

Anyway, I digress...

Norm, should we have to shoulder the costs for someone who smokes a pack a day for 40 years and then gets lung cancer? If someone smokes over a quarter-million cigarettes, they are basically BEGGING for lung cancer in my opinion.

Is someone who abuses their health by a lifetime of abuse (eating junk food, over-eating, and not exercising) categorically different?

Some hospitals in the US have McDonald's INSIDE the hospital. Seems that brand of medicine (treating the symptoms, not the person) is seriously fucked.

Norm, should we have to shoulder the costs for someone who smokes a pack a day for 40 years and then gets lung cancer?

No, but the your options are pay or let them die. Letting them Die has some repercussions that you will end up paying for.

On the other hand you can pay a doctor to tell them not to smoke for 40 years and maybe they will quit. I would imagine most smokers don't go to the doctor as often as non smokers.

You clearly haven't toured any American hospitals lately, but your japan stories make your point, Socialized medicine leads to preventative care and healthy living leads to doctors that deal with less sickness.

Other systems are even better then japan.


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