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Sarah Palin - Gender Card





 

Comments

Geography. There's a really jumpin' Arts festival in Fairbanks (!!!!) each August, I mean June(au) where your head is Mr.Rove?

I mean July! (Every time you open your mouth.)

Spacetime geodesicography. Up Uranus's moons, Mars Rove-r.

I want to repost this comment from Links With Your Coffee - Sunday, because it got shuffled down toward the bottom of the deck while Norm was upgrading the site. (Excellent improvements, by the way, Norm.) It was a response to Adam's question about the "revelation that Palin apparently belonged to a successionist, AK-is- not-part-of-the-U.S., fringe group". Sorry for the repetition, but I really think that maintaining the proper perspective is hugely important right now.

I don't think any single item in Palin's history matters as much as the composite picture of who she is professionally and as a human being.

Along those lines, read this, and this.

At this point, I'm so convinced that the idea of Palin as VP is already beginning to come apart at the seams that even many of the true believers in the fantasy-based community will be forced to concede that McCain's judgment was horrifically poor in this instance. I'm not even sure she will even make it to the election.

I'm not trying to tear her down. I think her history and her own psychological makeup assure that that will happen (hopefully before the election).

For my part, I'm just getting out there & putting the bug in the ears of the true believers that people who are not steeped in partisan politicking can plainly see how, frankly, stupid McCain's choice was - and that if they cannot see it, they are part of the stupid.

They won't believe this now, of course - and most of them never will. But the McCain campaign cannot dodge this bullet. They loaded the gun and fired it themselves, and soon the impact will be felt. And the best possible good that can come of it is for the small fraction of proud, obedient nutters that have the capacity to pause for a moment of honest self-reflection to do so, and begin to germinate the seed of a social conscience inside the thick hulls of their crania. For this to happen at all, they have to see that a great many level-headed, compassionate, ethical people are far ahead of them on the learning curve. In other words, they have to finally recognize that their blind faith in the (cheer)leadership of their party and/or religion has left them exposed and vulnerable, not strong and secure.

See, they approach this thing like it's a football game - as if it's just about winning, not about wisdom. (Remember when Newt Gingrich said, back in 1994, that "In order to take the House, we must burn the House down."? Does that really seem wise?) In these people's compartmentalized thinking, they do not connect the fact that "the end doesn't justify the means" might apply directly to them, not just Hitler's Germany. In their binary worldview, they simply cannot see themselves as agents of evil, because they mean well, and they absolutely believe they are aligned with the forces of good, that God is on their side, and that evil only exists in any meaningful sense "out there". This is, of course, the very type of pride that blinds people to their own shortcomings and allows evil to flourish. (See what Bill Maher had to say on that subject on Larry King a couple weeks ago here. The specific part I'm thinking of starts at about 7:40, but really there are lots of other relevant parts.)

On the political front, the Democratic Party will do the job of refocusing the concerns about Palin where they rightfully belong: on the question of John McCain's judgment. I'm doing some of that, too, and I hope some of you will take the time to do likewise.

But we should not get altogether subsumed in politics. We must remember the human context in which of all of this is taking place. I believe that now is the time to press the advantage and sieze the opportunity to show that no matter how the country has been maligned by dividers masquerading as uniters, we do not accept the premise of their partisan division. We reject the idea that our different ideas necessarily make us enemies. Do not wear their blinders, and do not hate them for the narrowness of their vision. Get angry? You betcha. But hate? No, no, absolutely not.

We must, as always, show - not just say, but demonstrate - that an ethical, reasoned, compassionate approach to matters of social justice, which is inclusive even of those who have, in their madness, sought to harm others and ended up harming us all, does not require religious faith - in fact, it thrives much more effectively without it.

This bit was why I heart TDS clips; it shouldn't be too difficult to find similar material in the coming weeks.

perspicio - gracias for the links, including the 2nd "this." In line with that article it's completely believable that McCain didn't do much checking on Palin for many reasons, including the 1st "this" (unfortunately jill and Akira's links don't work, poop) items. I would even throw Palin a bone on her "What does the VP do?" comment, which was followed up by how she liked her gig as governor. I think she figured there was no way she'd be picked, so she played up her current post to show that she'd be happy where she is.

It will be interesting to see how the inevitable public vetting and GOP double speak responses play out in the near future. Right now I think McCain will stick with her, hell or high water, like Bush I did with Quayle. If he doesn't, it would make a sort of sense, but either way, it does smell "like dead elephants."

gracias, john mccain!

Never mind the gender card. What about the religion card?

Seems that Palin was a member of the Pentecostal Church

her parents switched to the Wasilla Assembly of God, a Pentecostal church, where she was rebaptized at age 12 or 13, and attended under pastor Ed Kalnins until 2002.

From the Wall Street Journal

At the Pentecostal church where Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin worshipped for more than two decades, congregants speak in tongues and are part of a faith that believes humanity is in its "end times" -- the days preceding a world-ending cataclysm bringing Christian redemption and the second coming of Jesus

At Mr. Kalnins's invitation, Gov. Palin appeared on stage in June before a youth group at Wassila Assembly of God, where she reminisced fondly about getting baptized there, before asking the young people to pray for a proposed natural-gas pipeline in Alaska and for American soldiers.

"Pray for our military men and women who are striving to do what is right also for this country," Gov. Palin said, in a video of the talk posted on the church's Web site. Pray "that our national leaders are sending them out on a task that is from God. That's what we have to make sure we're praying for: that there is a plan and that plan is God's plan."

David Gushee, a Christian ethicist at Mercer University in Atlanta, says he is troubled that a public official might presume that government action could be God's intent. "I would never think it is appropriate to describe the actions of the United States military or the strategies of our commanders as a plan from God," Mr. Gushee says.

Mr. Gushee says Gov. Palin should explain her beliefs concerning the inevitability of a cataclysm and the end of time. "To me, it is highly relevant to someone who potentially has her hand on the nuclear button," he says. "If that is her worldview, I would want to know about that."

It's good to see Jon back in form at the republican convention. I thought Day 1 of the coverage was a little light on the funny - a result of the toned down, hurricane watch atmosphere. His coverage of the dems last week was a new high watermark. Cheers to finishing strong!

Wow, Perspicio - the first "this"/Andrew Sullivan link is pretty amazing. I hope you don't mind me (trying to) relink it here Andrew Sullivan to highlight which link and make sure people see it because I think you're right on the money about her. With the caveats Sullivan puts forth, I think it's probably a pretty fair assessment of her "executive experience" skill level.

Re: another link in the comment, it looks like the fringe group "membership" is a false statement from that group.

The Andrew Sullivan link seems to be getting around. This is the 4th time I have seen it and read it. I found it to be a great piece on Palin and echo that it should be bumped so it is not lost in the wall of text.

I hope women have enough sense not to blindly vote for Mccain/Palin just because she is a women. That would be very stupid. I am not sure why, but Palin came across as very arrogant and smug reading out from a speech she did not even write. And I am festering with anger at the way they ridiculed community organizers. I am one and though the job does not give me monetary satisfaction for the hard work put in, it means a lot to me. I was feeling sort of let down over the recent months by some of Obama's flip flops on different policies but when he answered a question today on community organizing I realized why I voted for him. Sorry for posting a youtube link here, but if anyone is interested here it is. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=377Ix4fK444

Keep fighting the good fight, anu. The world is a better place because of people like you.

And thanks for the link. I'm a bottom-up, grassroots person myself. It's amazing that Palin, and the trickle-downers by proxy, would have such open contempt for community organizing, yet push to enlarge the role of the church in government. It seems to me that if their churches aren't primary examples of community organizing, they've completely lost track of the founding principles of Christianity.

Has anybody seen this?

In the Land of Palin.

From the comments:

[H]er mayoral races were like a stroll through the park on a hot summer day. Her dad has basically taught everyone out here when they were in middle school science. She won her last mayoral race with less than 1,000 votes. It takes more than that to win a seat on the Valley’s school board.

What hasn’t been reported, at least not much, is that she was unemployed for almost three years before becoming gov. So, people talk about how she was gov for two years - make that 20 months. And before that? Unemployed for almost three years. She ran for mayor on a line of Positively Palin. Everyone knew her and her family. It wasn’t a nasty race.

The race for gov wasn’t exactly “nasty” either. She played the sympathy card constantly. It’s weird how people who aren’t paying attention will fall for it.

She ran for gov against the LEAST LIKED GOV IN THE UNION. His positive numbers were single digits. The local dog catcher could have run and won. Come on, people. This IS Alaska. She won b/c she got in the race so early and I think it kept more qualified people out. Also, the former gov took forever to decide if he’d run for reelection. If he hadn’t, the other guy on the Rep. side would have walked away with the win easily. But, the old gov and the other guy - John Binkley, who was the favorite in the business/thinking community - didn’t count on Sarah being served up no scrutiny in the press. The local press just ran pictures of her and whatdoyaknow? She won. And now she’ll apparently be VP and possilbly president.

The only thing - business wise - she did while being unemployed for almost three years, was to file for a business license she called Cou Rouge or Rouge Cou (I don’t know French). But it means “redneck” in French. Sarah wanted to start a local political consulting firm.

Scary indeed.

There's lots more.

I haven't verified the contents yet, but maybe somebody else has.

anu: I hope women have enough sense not to blindly vote for Mccain/Palin just because she is a women.

That is not my worry. My worry is that ignorant people with fucked up familes will blindly vote McCain because of her.

And Jamie Lynn Spears sending Bristol Palin a baby gift has reinforced my fear.

Best reason so far to vote for Obama, or against McCain is how he made the decision to choose Palin. Best evidence his Campaign is incompetent ( Have they never heard of facebook/myspace, could they not have told those poor kids to take their photos off my space for the world to see them? did they not think to talk to family members/ others etc about the ongoing ethics probe. Did they not see her history of firing people right and left and law suits? Did he not see something in her a bit well, nasty in her for NOT supporting her mother in law for mayor. worse still publicaly supporting the OTHER candidate?

Best argument so far is:
"Why Mccain makes Obama Conservative" http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1838571,00.html

From the blogs

“Jesus was a Community Organizer, and Pontias Pilate was a Governor.”

and another from the annoying David Frum http://frum.nationalreview.com/post/?q=ODY5YmY5NmZlYjk3ZDk5ZTFjNTNjZTc3N2M0ZmY5Y2Q=

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0908/13143.html

But I still think the democrats should ignore her, but focus on Mccains poor judgement and poor temperment for the biggest job in the free world.

I don't think we should ignore her. As a potential VP, we have an obligation to examine her history. But if it turns out to be riddled with dubious elements (as it has), more than anything this highlights McCain's questionable judgment.

Now, does she have positive governing attributes? You bet. But if it were really a strongly positive record, she wouldn't have to spin, lie, and distract on stage. The nature of her speech at the RNC invites even closer scrutiny than she received prior to it.

Norm, you have to post the Newt Gingrich interview. Jon is kick ass this week. Last night's episode was awesome :-)

Pity the mainstream media haven't figured out how to pay an intern to Tivo and find contradicting clips of politicians...

I am addicted.

see Obama on the O'reilly factor or whatever it is called. Turn it off after Obama.

Although i don't think anyone watching is convertable, maybe they will at least learn something.

How can the repubs say he is not prepared? http://www.foxnews.com/oreilly/

Funny how each day Democrats seem to sway back and forth between this being a 'stupid' move and a 'brilliant' one. Guess it's just that self-inflicted depression messing with your minds.

Wonder what Obama thinks about it? He's had a rough couple days. First Palin mops the floor with him in a devastatingly well-written and well-delivered speech. Then Obama goes directly against the Democrat party line of saying over and over that the surge didn't work. And now he's assembling a commando team of lady assassins to combat the Palin factor:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26552879/

Yeah, sounds like it was a really 'stupid' move on the part of Republicans. Funny how most of the 40 million people who tuned in to see her speak seem to disagree with you.

If you completely disregard that whole Hillary Clinton campaign, sure you can claim the Republicans are pulling the gender card. But right now the Democrats are frantically digging through the entire gender deck. Got any queens?

user-pic

If aggressive campaigning and covering all your bases is a sign of failure then every winning campaign in the past 30 years was a losing one.

I continue to be disappointed with how Obama handles hostile interviews such as Bill O'RLY? conducted.

At what point will it become standard operating procedure to address not just the words of the question, but it's unspoken premises?

And with all Bill's interrupting, Obama should have said to him sternly and in no uncertain terms:

"Bill, you're asking me simple-sounding questions but these are very complex issues, and the American people deserve the opportunity to hear what I have to say about them. You're going to have to allow me the opportunity to give you honest, complete answers, or there can be no point in continuing this conversation."

Next instance:

"Bill, if you're not going to permit me to respond to your questions, you are not conducting an honest or ethical interview. This is not how adults behave. I am not avoiding your questions; you are avoiding my answers. I understand that as president, I may have to contend with some belligerent, bellicose leaders of foreign nations, but this is beneath you, and beneath the American people."

Third instance:

"Mr. O'Reilly, unless you are intentionally positioning yourself as hostile to me, you need to let me answer your questions completely and honestly. Otherwise, it's safe to say that diplomacy has failed, and just as if I were negotiating with a hostile foreign leader, I will move away from talks and on to sanctions."

If O'Reilly doesn't immediately adopt and maintain a more respectful tone, the response should be:

"You've made your choice, Mr. O'Reilly. I regret that you have chosen to serve yourself, rather than the American public, and I cannot be party to this. Goodbye."

calligraph, I won't ask you to show how "democrats" (which are apparently a monolithic body in your mind) sway back and forth from one day to the next. It seems that the idea of two people in the same political party having different ideas is one you cannot possibly grasp.

I suspect a hardware limitation. You seem to be wired as a drone. Have you lost your hive? Shouldn't you be tending your queen's larvae or something?

The big fear of the people I know about the Palin pick is the gullibility/stupidity/vanity factor of the American voting public.

Even since George Bush was re-elected against all common sense in 2004 to inflict four more years on us, there is no question the American public can be suckered into anything if played to correctly. A few Swift Boat lies, a little cowboy imagery, some beer-drinking friendliness and a good dose of fear (and maybe even a little tampering with the voting methods) and boom - George W. Bush is president of the U.S. - again. Our best and our brightest - there he is.

Now, at this convention, the Republicans are busy disavowing the last 8 years and talking about being the change party and --- all their supporters of the short memories will decide they also weren't supportive of the last eight years. And, really - the Democrats and the Republicans really share the blame, don't they? Even though the Dems haven't had a voice for even two years and, meanwhile, Bush has been busy vetoing his life away. They are just as culpable, though, aren't they? (But, of course, Clinton is responsible for EVERYTHING that went on during his terms even though he had a Republican Congress - but, I digress.)

Then the powers that be bring on a pretty, conservative face. She got 616 votes to run Wasilla - in all likelihood by administrator - leaving a town of 9K that started off clear of debt, now $20m in the red and now she's governor and not doing a bang-up job at that either. You have her up against a truly smart man Columbia, Harvard, legal background, Illinois Senate and the U.S. Senate - the record is pretty d@mn good. And, if he isn't strong enough on the experience the American public (through the Republican party) is demanding, he works hard to choose a running mate to give the American public confidence in how seriously he treats his role but....he's 1/2 black and there are parts of America....well...

Now, will ya look at that purty, fiesty little gal with the five kids who knows how to shoot a gun. Gol darn - she's not one of them intellectuals - she's like us -you know - don't need that book learning when you've got street smarts.

So the real question is, how many bozos are there out in Republican land that are ready to vote this little lady and the old guy in? Could they be the majority of Americans? We know the Republican party has no interest in educating the masses so are they dumb enough to support them yet? 2004 says YES!

That is the big fear, calligraph. That the American public is stupid enough to think Sarah Palin is ready to be a heartbeat away from the most powerful position on the planet.

Jill -- Excellent comment. Your first line sums up my frustration with McCain's pick of Palin and the general reception she's receiving outside of the blogosphere.

It seems that we Americans like new, shiny and pretty things. Hopefully people will realize that underneath that attractive exterior lies a venomous and vindictive style of governing.

The more I hear her (and hear about her), the more I think of a female George W. Bush. Nasty, petty and impulsive. And elected to the Presidency. Twice.

Jill, I'd be willing to bet calligraph got a boner when you told him what the big fear is.

I toy with him as though he were merely stupid, but of course I know he is actually malignant.

Jill, I'd be willing to bet calligraph got a sick smile and a boner when you told him what the big fear is.

I toy with him as though he were merely stupid, but of course I know he is actually malignant.

I think Obama has shown that the Democrats have taken the moral high ground1 by not playing the Knock-up Slut card, even though, given half a chance, the Republicans would probably go all-in if they had the Knocked-up Slut card dealt to them in this election. Karl Rove probably dreams about pregnant teens who are the offspring of prominent Democrats. I'm surprised that they don't recruit the father of this kid to be a standard bearer for the Republicans; any kid who can lie like that (“You can't get pregnant if it's your first time”) could go on to do great things for the party. “The surge is working!”2

1)A mythical place although social conservatives keep trying to buy time share condos there.

2)In this context this sounds dirty but it's not supposed to be unless you think the war is a vile sack of lies in which case "dirty" doesn not mean "salacious" but rather "repugnant."

i strongly object to Jon Stewart calling Dick Morris "a lying sack of shit". This is very misleading, alas, and i am surprised and saddened to see Jon Stewart talking that way: Dick Morris is MUCH worse.

I consider my mom a somewhat typical hillary supporter, although she is even less in your face about her feminism than a women of her age could be(and by that I just mean usually once people are older they will tell you what they really think without you asking). she said she will never vote for palin. They recognize the pandering involved in choosing her, and she barely keeps up with politics.

Uubuntu - I so agree! The Republican method seems to be to give the people a kind of movie stereotype and ignore the actual person.

Perspicio - Calligraph seems average to me - not actually stupid. I think he falls into the vain part of the gullible/stupid/vain sucker marketing of Rove.

He seems very proud when he can regurgitate the talking points he has been given although he does seem to short-circuit when confronted with facts. (I bet he got all A's on the tests where they said - now use it in a sentence.) And when he does that he not only feels good - the Republicans have told him he's actually doing good, :) And I think the vanity will make him their man through and through - they imply his averageness is actually astuteness and put down the people that disagree with him.

That said - I know I'm just wasting my time. He will never hear anything I say. I'm not only a liberal - I'm a female liberal.

And now he's invented another commenter - madfarmer - to tell him he's right.

More importantly - I think you are so right about how Obama should handle O'Reilly. There should be a way to reach the candidates - a kind of online suggestion box - now we just have to find a place to suggest that....:)

Jill,

The official mechanism for submitting suggestions is, of course, a phone call, or better yet, a letter. And there are lots of informal "suggestion boxes" out there in the form of comment sections following news articles & blog posts.

But there are 300 million people in this country, and millions more abroad, most of whom want their voice to be heard. To have any hope of separating ourselves from the din and clamor, we have to be smart about how we do it.

I've puzzled over this problem some. Here are a few ideas I like to use:

Assemble a "hit list" (in an RSS reader or somesuch) of high profile news & commentary sites that allow reader comments, preferably ones that are chronological down, not up. (Like OGM, as opposed to Youtube.)

Post early. When news is breaking, get on the stick right away. Big news generates a lot of buzz. If your comments appear somewhere in the middle of a throng of 1000 others, your voice will be pretty much lost to all but a few die-hard thread-followers. But if they appear right up top, they'll be seen by many more people.

Manage your message. Understand that the goal is to raise the ethical standards of our government and media. If that can be accomplished, good government will naturally result. When commenting on a particular issue, don't lose sight of this principle. Address whatever issue is the focus of the article itself, but never fail to address its larger context. The reason pinpoint solutions to problems tend to create new problems is because they don't deal realistically with the interrelated web of related factors. That's why a coherent, overarching understanding of the context is necessary, and in today's soundbite culture it's unrealistic to expect the media to provide that.

I incorporate a lot more ideas, but those are a few basic ones.

But the best bet is to go to the campaign itself.

I love how Rove skips over Kaines Role as Lt Gov, for 4 years. As part of a very popular and successful administration. He musta forgot.

Demo-fornia.

"Palin as VP is already beginning to come apart at the seams that even many of the true believers in the fantasy-based community will be forced to concede that McCain's judgment was horrific"

Come apart like a four-leaf clover. Ah, the pluck* of the Irish!

"Calligraph seems average to me"

Bull's (I wish I could type "hit")

Eye!

We are fighting a battle of the bulge here, the mental-a-belly-ty-fat of re-re-re-regression to the mean (I mean, "mean" means mean, really, as in "he's so mean to me"), it's evolutionary demographics. The bulge o' the Bell McCurve (our other senator, Jon Kyl is an intelligent psychopath, like Cheney, he ain't runnin'):

To Palin" "you can ring my be-e-e-ll, ring my bell ( to the tune of DuFay's "Vergine bell")".

Picture this, there ain't enough computing power, setting up a resonance is the only way, or...damping it down. Mass poltical psychology is really (social) engineering, physics [sic sic sics].

Calligraph is... a walkin' talkin' postin'.... Demograph, an Hermetic microcosmos of "the Pop", hmmmm...

The Pop, the Son, und Der Heilige Zeiteist. Calli-fornia, everything always starts there.... It's a State of No-mind, Nevermind.

So my brother in law set up the deal, oversaw the team that outfitted Palin's humble new luxury McCampaign jet. Why am I most, least degrees separated with Palin and Reagan of all Politicians? OK, back in '69, I was 1.5° separated from the County Sheriff. He's still up there. Richards.

The McClown, I mean MacCain, play/ploy writ mega-big, is to paint Obama Nationals, as "not normals, not your regular (from a prostitute for the politics of "deregulation"!) Amerrrricans. It's exactly what Rove, and, for that matter,Hitler, did (mit dem gelben Sterne). They're Dawoodis. Dawoodis mit Woodies:

Obama needs to be seen in a wood-panelled Hummer. Or "wearin'" a cowboy hat...

NOT.

.

.

*It's time again for the Bill Moyers TV spot of the little girl plucking flower-petals. We are closer to Wold War III with Palin/McCain than we ever were with Goldwater. Goldwater was not Irish (not that there's anything wrong with that).

I think it's called the Daisy spot and I usually think of it as DDB's :)

How are you six degree'd from Reagan?

When it comes to calligraph's intelligence, he's not stupid in the "I can't understand" sense. He's stupid in the "I refuse to learn" sense. He could wise up; he just chooses not to. It simply doesn't serve his interests to do so.

I have a slightly snarky modest proposition that serves to partially summarize this particular mindset.

As far as dealing with him, I'm sticking to my guns. (Read that any way you want.) He is malignant. A con man. A crocodile. As William Burroughs said, he is "as radioactive as an old joke". ("Nothing in and out but the recordings. Shut them off.") And he knows this, too. He is just too intrinsically dishonest to ever admit it openly. He knows that people like him don't tend to do too well on the outside when their true nature is exposed. I see his lizard brain, and raise him a neocortex.

In a strange way, I find it strangely comforting to realize he has a lizard brain. Thanks -

We all have lizard brains. He is not "other" to us - but we are "other" to him.

Hmmm....looks like previewing your comment breaks the "Reply to this comment" feature.

"I love how Rove skips over Kaines Role as Lt Gov, for 4 years. As part of a very popular and successful administration. He musta forgot."

This is a standard GOP talking point that no one has actually checked. Joe Scarborough said that no one raised the question of Kaine's inexperience because he was a man. Well, it's really because he's not inexperienced. He's had a solid, very successful career in state government. VA (my state) has the 6th highest per capita income in the country, and it's ain't from pumping oil out of the ground. It actually takes skill to run VA.

Thanks for that. You're right - I hadn't checked.

I read onegoodmove and the many comments daily, though I never usually respond myself. I consider myself a mild conservative.

I would like to say right now that the poster called calligraph is an ugly personality. Day after day I read his input here and everything he says is laced with vitriol and sourness, I know in the first sentence when I am reading his posts because of how unpleasantly they are phrased. He identifies with conservatism because America does not have a more rabid right wing body for him to foam at the mouth on what he sees as behalf of and I am galled every time he couches his words in terms of the same political spectrum more reasonable people inhabit. I'm not even sure he is here to discuss his genuine opinion; many of his posts are are so odious that I begin to suspect he is merely here to be as contrary and antagonistic to everyone else as possible for his personal entertainment. That is the level of personality I believe is on the other side of the caricature called calligraph, and I would like it very much if he stopped posting.

I am aware reading this will encourage such as him. Apologies but I wanted to say it. I'm also aware it isn't terribly mature to make a problem like this what draws me to posting, but I don't enjoy my daily reading being fouled up, and some people can just bring that reaction out.

2 degree'd from Reagan?

My sister married into big donors/"friends" who helped set up the Reagan library in Simi, etc., I find the details most distasteful. Also an "uncle" acted in old movies at old tucson.

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