I completely agree that sexism is far more oppressive than racism has ever been. Slavery of women is still promoted in some circles (mainly the religious but anyone who still deems a woman's place is in the kitchen is guilty of it), violence toward women is still legislated in many societies and as this video points out - racist words are instant career killers where as sexist jargon is still good for a laugh or a critique.

I'm no psychology expert but I've come to believe that most men don't actually like women - they don't trust them and in fact they fear them. As the great comedian Robin Williams once said in reference to the male mind, "If we can't fuck it, we'll kill it!"

Thus, why we are "killing" Hillary.

That said, I'm still not excited about voting for her.

Hillary voted against the Military Commissions Act of 2006, so kudos for that.

She's also got quite a cult of personality.

She also has a vagina (or so I've been told).

Other than that, what the fuck? I mean, really, has America's standards sunk so low?

Also, calling the anti-Hillary folk "sexist" is akin to calling the anti-Obama folk "racist". Not only is this an extremely prejudicial thing to do, it is also completely asinine.

If Ayn Rand were running, or a disciple of Ayn Rand, I would be their strongest advocate, and most readers of OGM would be totally opposed to her. Sexism has nothing to do with it.

John Edwards said it best:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qq7CAIsSd44

Of course, no one is going to comment on that video, because YOU CAN'T. Hillary is a fraud, the facts support this view, and trying to guilt me via accusations of sexism is pure lowest-common-denominator politics.

You dislike Ron Paul? You must hate old people. Prejudice! Prejudice!

You don't love Obama? You must be a racist!

You oppose George W. Bush? How dare you judge someone with mental disabilities!

You didn't vote for Richardson? How dare you reject the wonderful culture of Latin America!

I mean, really, this isn't just lame, its sad. Its sad that bullshit like this is what decides elections.

And as November 2008 approaches, I begin to understand why my parents, who were once proud hippies, eventually gave up and sold out.

I am an alien without a homeworld, without political representation, without the rights guaranteed to me by the U.S. Constitution. I would like this to change, but more and more, I am beginning to doubt that it ever will.

That does it. To hell with the GOP and to hell with the DEMS and to hell with all the cultists in both camps. Vote 3rd party. Vote Nader. Vote Gravel. Vote Anarchist for all I care, but please, please for the love of Zeus, stop letting these criminals scam us. Please. Just make it stop.

"In a Democracy, people get the government they deserve"

Ouch.

Zaphod,

I can't speak for Norm but I don't think his post, and I know my comment, were not intended to make you feel Obama supporters are sexist. I think it was meant to point out the sexist dialogue that is still openly acceptable in our country. Just because I'm an advocate of equality for women doesn't mean I think Hillary would be a good president. I could give two sh!ts whether we get Hillary or Barack. And, I also think it's obvious that the majority of readers at this site are a bit more "evolved" than to let primal sexist urges sway their opinions any more than they'd let their primal tribal urges sway their vote away from Obama due to race. But you can't ignore the glaring fact that Hillary has been unfairly demonized for being a woman.

Zaphod,

Forgot to mention that I totally agree with you last bit about us being scammed. We do get he government we deserve and as an uneducated, shallow, selfish and distracted nation we are getting fleeced.

As far as the love vs hate, well the Gallup poll demonstrates that most of the hate comes from Clinton supporters.

A sizable proportion of Democrats would vote for John McCain next November if he is matched against the candidate they do not support for the Democratic nomination. This is particularly true for Hillary Clinton supporters, more than a quarter of whom currently say they would vote for McCain if Barack Obama is the Democratic nominee

Clinton supporters appear to be somewhat more reactive than Obama supporters. Twenty-eight percent of the former indicate that if Clinton is not the nominee -- and Obama is -- they would support McCain. That compares to 19% of Obama supporters who would support McCain if Obama is not the nominee -- and Clinton is.

Did any of you actually read the post from the link or just watch the video and guess what the post is about?

And there are many many many reasons why I don't like Hillary Clinton. I am a woman, a feminist, so it sure as hell isn't for sexist reasons that I don't like her. I can't say that I am in love with Barack Obama, but there are just too many reasons why Hillary Clinton disgusts me.

One major reason why she disgusts me, though, was her response to Mike Gravel when she laughed at his comment about her vote on giving GWB power to go to war with Iran. He chided Barack Obama for not voting and he chided Hillary Clinton for voting for it. He praised Biden and Dodd for voting against it. And her response? She laughed.

Disgusting. She has a tendancy to laugh instead of responding seriously when called on some of her more disgusting votes.

And yes, Dar, I read the post. But the reason that I don't like HIllary has nothing whatsoever with her being a woman. Hell, I'm a woman! And I do feel that there is sexism in our society, but that doesn't equate to I should vote for Hillary.

And yes, Obermann is clearly against Hillary. But is he against her because she's a woman? I don't think so.

Not only do I not think so, I know that this is not true. Olbermann is fair to women and atheists. He just doesn't like Hillary Clinton, and neither do I, so I understand where he's coming from.

Bill Maher:

Why should Americans vote for someone who could be fooled by George Bush?

Hillary's response? She laughs!

What's so damned funny? Many other Democrats, such as Russ Feingold, did not trust George Bush.

She then says that she "sought out expert opinion from a wide variety of sources. People inside and outside the government, people in my government's adminstration".

So are these the same people still advising her? Yikes!

Maybe she should have been taking advice from all of those Senators and Congressmen/women who voted against the "Iraq War Resolution:"

Those Senators who voted against giving GWB the authority to wage war on Iraq:

Senators: Akaka (D-HI) Bingaman (D-NM) Boxer (D-CA) Byrd (D-WV) Chafee (R-RI) Conrad (D-ND) Corzine (D-NJ) Dayton (D-MN) Durbin (D-IL) Feingold (D-WI) Graham (D-FL) Inouye (D-HI) Jeffords (I-VT) Kennedy (D-MA) Leahy (D-VT) Levin (D-MI) Mikulski (D-MD) Murray (D-WA) Reed (D-RI) Sarbanes (D-MD) Stabenow (D-MI) Wellstone (D-MN) Wyden (D-OR)

Also, the Majority of House Democrats voted against the "Iraq War Resolution".

"people in my government's adminstration"

Oops.. that should have been "people in my husband's administration".

And she says "if I had known then what I know now"..

Well, hell, Russ Feingold knew then what she knows now. Barack Obama knew then what she knows now.

At one point in time Obama said that he might have voted differently if he had been a senator, but hell, he said that at a time when he was working to get Democrats who voted for this fucking war elected.

I don't buy the racism vs. sexism war. What do you think the Rev. Wright Debacle was all about? I'll tell you one thing, it wasn't about religion. It was a very thinly veiled attack on barack being from a black church with a black pastor who says things that makes white people uncomfortable.

MLK, april 4, 1967

Their questions hit home, and I knew that I could never again raise my voice against the violence of the oppressed in the ghettos without having first spoken clearly to the greatest purveyor of violence in the world today: my own government. For the sake of those boys, for the sake of this government, for the sake of the hundreds of thousands trembling under our violence, I cannot be silent.

I'm trying to figure out what the video is saying. Bad things are said about candidates when the run, pertaining on the fears/biases of the voting public?

McCain is soo old! he cant even raise his arms above his shoulders, he's a liberal in disguise! Obama won't be elected because he's black. No, i'm not racist, but I don't want him to win because OTHER PEOPLE won't vote for him. Hillary is a woman. Ooooh, she's gonna cry about everything, she sounds like your whiney wife.

Complainging about the political commentators does NOTHING to raise the debate. Stop talking about them. Stop listening to them. Talk about the freaking issues if you think nobody is focusing on the candidates platforms. I'd say the same thing about a Brack ad that streamed together all the racist stuff said about him. This is a clump of leaves in the gutter of political politics.

Stupid Git:

JoAnn nailed it. I'm not demonizing Hillary because she's a woman, I demonize her because she's a scum bag.

Oh sure, lots of people use low-brow humor against her, like the guy holding the "Iron my shirt" sign, but jackasses like that rarely vote anyway, so I'm not really concerned with them.

JoAnn:

Don't forget our fine Congressman Dr. Paul. The only Republican in the Senate to see this scam for what it was.

As far as I'm concerned, Hillary voters are on par with Bush voters. They aren't "for" anything, there is no consistent ideology or values among them, they simply want "their team" to win, like this was a god damn soccer match or something. If you vote Hillary, don't spin me some bullshit about how you are anti-war. If you think single-payer healthcare is what we need, don't vote for a woman who would make health insurance mandatory, as if that is somehow the same thing. If you truly support equality for women, don't support a person simply because she was married to the President.

Ok, no more ranting from me. At least until the next round of this stupidity grabs my goat. Where are my pills?

JoAnn:

Er, Paul (R) is in the House, not Senate. According to Wiki, Paul was one of six Republicans to vote against it.

I got so mad about this Hillary situation, all my Paul-aganda talking point index cards got mixed up. Honest mistake, it won't happen again. ;-)

Yes, Zaphod, you're right. Ron Paul also knew then what she knows now.

The only Republican senator who voted against the Iraq War Resolution was Lincoln Chaffe (who has endorsed Obama)

The only other two House Republicans who voted against the Iraq War Resolution who I'm aware of are John Duncan (Tennnesse) and Jim Leach (Iowa).

JoAnn,

When she says she sought out "expert advice" I'm pretty sure to her that means James Carville :)

Zaphod,

I wasn't accusing you of being sexist - just want to make that clear. I think the video makes it very clear that sexism is a main factor in trashing Hillary just as racism is a main factor in trashing Obama. The main difference is the racism has to be thinly veiled to not backfire where as the sexism is blatant. A man holding a sign saying "Get back on the plantation" at an Obama rally wouldn't be taken nearly as lightly as the "Iron my shirt" dudes.

By the way, I'm not a Hillary voter - I don't much care for her. Guess what though, I don't much care for Obama either. I do think that you equating Hillary voters with Bush voters is beyond ridiculous and if you have any conscience you'll apologize. You're getting way too militant on this topic of which middle-of-the-road centrist is better. And, there are many brilliant people I know personally who are very active in liberal politics on all levels from protesting to working at the U.N. who voted for Hillary. These are people who early on were for candidates like Dodd, Edwards, Paul, and Biden... None of these people thought Hillary was the best choice early on but they do now.

Please stop demonizing everyone who has a slight difference of opinion from yours.

Here are some things that caused a knee-jerk reaction from me:

She also has a vagina (or so I've been told).

A male-bashing equivalent: guess Zap is insecure about the size of his gonads! (or so I assume from such a witty remark)

Someone needs to take her out in back of the barn

Pete Snyder, someone should take YOU in back of the barn!! (OK, i might not have gotten the quote exactly, but that's pretty damn close)

I wouldn't normally say such things, but I think that same material needs to be thrown back at those who said/wrote it so they can see how it sounds from the other camp (not that Pete Snyder will ever see this).

Watching the video made me glad that I don't watch TV on any regular basis. Hell, I finally hooked up the new one last weekend. Those "news"casters chuckling at such uncouth remarks would be brought up on sexual harassment charges if someone they worked with documented them. As much as I've enjoyed Maureen Dowd's op-eds in the past, I have to say that some of her complaints against Hillary resembled some of the same criticism leveled against Dowd's book

I'm not against HRC for pres because she's a woman; I"m not currently a BHO supporter because he's African-American. Supporting or being against one or the other because of gender or race just shows lack of thinking.

My problems with Clinton have been stated before, and are generally summed up with an arrogance that smacks of the Bush administration. Since she released her tax returns, I can't go after her for that (I'm not all freaked about the contents; I just wondered what the hold-up was).

As for Olbermann, I haven't heard him level criticisms at Clinton that I considered sexist. Kindly point them out to me if you heard them (remember, my TV hasn't been hooked up for some time, and I don't get cable; I've only seen Olbermann clips on ogm). Obviously he doesn't support her, and he has a forum to air his views. If he weren't an Obama supporter, undoubtedly someone would cry "racist."

as constituents it is time to stick to the issues, so I'm in complete agreement with Magnolia.

I read the comments and watched the video. The comments frustrated me as i really don't see how he(or she) was proving this bias against Hillary. What is clear is the press and maybe all of us focus on stupid little things that are unimportant, like whether Hillary was under sniper fire or not, like the health care story and the story about Obamas advisors and the canadians etc. Then they use these stupid little things to attack a candidate. The press focusses on nonsense, we eat it up and no one is reporting on what is going on in Iraq, the complexities of how to deal with health care, reporting on the complexities of reducing poverty, improving literacy, etc. Some combination of society and the press is the problem. All the candidates are being attacked for absolutely silly things and we the public and these blogs seem to eat it up.

Now where i do agree is that their is a lot of convert and obvious sexism in some of the language and i suspect that sexism is much more acceptable than racism in our society. That is why that saturday night live sketch suggesting that Bitches get things done and to vote for the bitch was actually quite brilliant.

So the press is bad, likely to all candidates, how do we stop it? How do we educate the public on complex issues such as health care, addictions, the middle east etc if the press just goes around talking about nonsense?

This is nothing new. Hillary has always been hated. True, she's never been openly despised by so many Democrats before, but hey, it just shows how polarizing she really, truly is.

And the fact that her admirers do obnoxious things like create videos that blame the hatred on something OTHER than Hillary, speaks volumes.

The Elizabeth Edwards interview 2 posts above is a good response to the problems in the media. As she notes, since her husband is out of the race, she can really focus on the issues and not the candidates, She's a terrific advocate for getting a Dem into the White House at the moment.

Swinging back to leftcoaster's original post, we have really gotten caught up int he personal lives of the candidates, and glossed over their governance. As far as we know, W has had no extra-marital affairs, but sheesh! His tenure in office has been a disaster. Even the 1st 4 years were abysmal, but he was voted back in. Oi.

Stupid Git:

Google Janet Reno, Branch Davidians, Murder Case and start reading. The blood of innocent civilians remains on the hands of all those who vote these sociopaths into office- Bush, Clinton, McCain, and plenty more.

I will gladly appologise for voting Bush back in 2000. I've grown to understand my mistake. I only hope Hillary supporters do the same before history repeats again.

To whomever inquired:

I only have one testicle, and yes, it is tiny. When I was a child, my mommy made me wear pink sneakers. This is the real reason why I hate Hillary Clinton. The fact that she has exploited well-meaning, good hearted people for the benefit of her own short-sighted oligarchy has nothing to do with it. I also hate jews and blacks, but strangely, have an odd attraction to swedes with good tans.

Gypsy Sister:

If it makes you feel better, until very recently my wife was the household breadwinner (she earned more money at her job than I did at mine). I still tend to do most of the cooking. I even wear an apron sometimes (when BBQing). I also take pride in a good clean toilet.

My mother was actually a defense attorney who held two doctorates and is one of the most brilliant people I ever met. She also took me camping often while my dad was more the "room service in a hotel" type.

I tend to like "tomgirls" a bit more than "girly girls", and so I have a very skewed view of gender relations. Most girls I know are pretty tough, and most of them are very career oriented who I expect will make it to the top. I certainly agree with equal rights, equal pay, and all that good stuff. I just grew up in a world where women were quite successful at shattering glass ceilings, so I forget the levels of discrimination some people feel.

Perspective: my wife works as an RN, and is as strong as any man I know. Most of her friends are the same. When hanging around these gals it can be easy to forget that 30 short years ago women had to fight for equal treatment. The hospital management is majority female (as is the staff) all the way up to the female CEO. The glass ceiling was shattered long ago (in this company, not to say in all companies). My wife is the direct supervisor of several men, and she's quite good at "being the boss" when she needs to be.

However, she still expects me to kill spiders, which is to say, some gender roles have not changed, nor do I think they necessarily should change. I think the greater issue is respect, and I certainly have much love and respect for many women, and men, and blacks, and browns, and everybody else. I am a hippie at heart, and wish we could all just hug and let the -isms of my grandfather's generation fade away to oblivion once and for all.

Why would any genuine, sincere feminist support this woman? Hillary Clinton is who she is, and is where she is at, on account of her husband -- and nothing else.

For that matter, why the hell would any human being support Hillary Clinton? I can understand why New Yorkers elected her into office -- I mean, given the choice between being represented by an honest and decent person, and an unscrupulous, soulless, carpetbagging shit, I'd honestly go with the latter.

But for President, I think it'd be nice to have someone nicer.

i'm surprised no one has mentioned just how lame this video is. like, from the standpoint of video craftsmanship, it completely sucks. embarrassingly so. not just because it's content is so jumbled and non-sequitur as to render it's message any one's guess. but more to the point, it's completely lame. like youtube-at-its-worst lame. which is saying something. and what's up with the last half of it feeling like some sort of poorly made video for someone's 50th birthday party. ick. i can't believe no one else has posted about how outright shitty this video is. retch.

@zaphod: "If Ayn Rand were running, or a disciple of Ayn Rand, I would be their strongest advocate..."

Um, wow. This is one of a very few things you could have said to make me never, ever take anything you say seriously again. She's a bad writer, a bad fake philosopher, and an advocate of loathsome pseudo-ethics. What is there to like?

username2:

You're just attacking Rand because she's a woman. Whatzamma, got a small dick?

See how lame that argument is?

Thanks for the help.

Zap

@zaphod: I have no idea what you're trying to say.

Thomas Nagel and Martha Nussbaum are philosophers. Cormac McCarthy and Sandra Cisneros are novelists. Ayn Rand is... neither.

But if you want to compare stretched penile length, just let me know, and I'll find a yardstick.

Wow - lots of people here really don't like Hillary (to put it mildly.) I guess I was one of the only ones that was glad to see this video (as "lame" as it was). I watch Hillary with interest. This is the first time in the history of America a woman has gotten this far in the process and everything she does is being scrutinized and is breaking new ground. I've wondered - what kind of woman would America ALLOW to be a President? And, being Hillary how incredibly tough does she have to be to withstand the absolute hatred people feel toward her - I believe in a way they would not feel it if she were a man. Reminds me of how hated Martha Stewart was over things that a man could've easily gotten a pass for. (And, BTW, I do NOT believe she is where she is because of her husband. I think she earned it and has the added benefit of her husband being an asset.)

From what I know, Hillary is a pretty brilliant woman who I don't always agree but that's about par for the course for me. I don't know about her vote for the Iraq War Resolution - I'd prefer she hadn't but I remember that time pretty clearly and the next step was not supposed to be war. But I don't think that's the reason she is hated....

But, because of the right wing nuts still having a pretty loud voice, I am going to vote for Obama. As someone else pointed out, racism has to be presented more subtly so I think they won't go right after Obama the way they would Hillary. And, I also believe the nation is tired of all the browbeating and will want to give Obama a chance because he is new to the picture.

I wanted Edwards - he's gone. I think Hillary is sharper than Obama but I am voting for Obama. The compromises we make in order to help prevent McBush from getting in.

(And I think a third party vote is a waste at this time when we need to prevent the right wing from appointing any more Supreme Court justices and making the ostentatious consumption class's tax cuts permanent.)

"Please stop demonizing everyone who has a slight difference of opinion from yours."

That was the best post I have seen on a hilary/obama discussion in a while.

Not liking Hilary doesn't make you sexist, I dont think that is at all what the video is showing. There has been a huge ammount of sexism thrown at her though. Just as there has been racism thrown at obama, however veiled it may be. Even if you do not like either candidate I think you should be disgusted by it all.

I don't think you should vote for Hilary just because you are a woman. If you can take a step back and look at them objectively, that is great. I know if I was black or a woman I probably wouldn't be so objective. However, what I think this election has highlited is a huge ammount of sexism in the media. I think even as a female Obama supporter, that should be clear. I saw a piece by a female Obama supporter saying she fealt fine voting for a man because women had won the battle. They where getting in to all industries and scoring higher in tests and generally being better acedemics. And yet they are still paid less. Hilary may be a bad person and a horrible candidate, I dont think she is, but even so - she does not deserve what she has received.

Oh and if this comes across as me discounting what has been thrown at Obama, I find that just as unacceptable. It will get worse too if he wins. The racism is going to get even uglier.

OK i am an Obama supporter and to look at some of the posts there really is some kind of crazy hatred towards Hillary? Come on guys, she would be a good candidate. Look at the bigger picture. I too prefer Obama and he will likely get the nod, but all these personal attacks at Hillary and McCain are an embarassment to Americans. There are issues to discuss, there are significant difference between Mc Cain and the democrats and frankly very small differences between the democrats. Sure there is a lot of symbolism in both Hillary and Obamas candidacy, but they are both good candidates, i am not sure they are the best candidates but they are both fine, so stop acting like children, there is no evidence Hillary is evil, nor is there evidence that Obama is a psychopath as suggested by some posters here, both have dedicated their lives to public service. As stated stop demonizing folks with a a different opinion, this includes by the way McCain.

This video is crap.

There are no doubt many people that have said some very sexist and offensive things around the Clinton candidacy, but to lump the criticisms with the hate is what most everyone here has agreed should not happen. Don't try to silence people with claims of discrimination.

Putting Kieth Olbermann and some of the more reasoned critics in with fox news and every other misogynists they could find is BS.

Lets put everyone that has ever called Obama inexperienced and put them next to a KKK member and see how that elevates the discussion.

He muddles critics from the right and the left into one big group of "haters"

Some people hate strong women. Some people hate Clinton's Policies. Some people just don't like her personality and style.

The conspiracy seems to get more vast by the minute.

Durandal: and if this comes across as me discounting what has been thrown at Obama, I find that just as unacceptable. It will get worse too if he wins.

I keep semi-close tabs on Limbaugh and Hannity's radio shows, and they are struggling (particularly Limbaugh) to find a way to fight Obama. I remain unconvinced that they will be any more successful than Hillary has been.

The Republicans, having had almost sole power (and thus, the brunt of responsibility) for the last 8 years, come into this race with a huge vulnerability. And let's not forget McCain also has a pastor problem.

Yet look at how handily Obama has dealt with a candidate who entered the race without any vulnerabilities (save for, maybe, the candidate herself and her shitty managerial skills)!

If/when Hillary is out, I think the small-minded, trifling stuff (Sexism VS Racism...ho hum yawn) will be replaced by more meatier, substantive matters. Then we will see what Obama is really made of. Right now, he's like a brand new sleek sports car sitting in the driveway, idling tantalizingly. And Hillary is like waiting in line at the DMV to get the tabs and license plates.

(McCain is this)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ZVpPGxuafA&feature=related

Zaphod,

I have no doubt that you respect women, especially with your other descriptions of Hillary. I don't know if you realize the nod nod wink wink comment about her vagina was base/locker room talk that doesn't fit the rest of your M.O. - family relations and the like Btw, I don't really care about the size of your genitals, but wanted to throw it back at you so you'd get the same nod nod wink wink base comment from the other side.

Sadly, women can do the exact same things to other women - writing poison pen missives that may be taken more seriously, because it's a woman writing about a woman after all, hence my reference to Dowd. Where is Susan Faludi when we need her? Hell, as young tomboy, I used to pull some of the same crap. "Why not?" I thought; it got me more attention from the boys. Even as a young adult it would serve to get me dates. Now I know better, and relationships are better too.

In any case, I don't think that referring to a candidate as a "scumbag" rates much higher. This kind of criticism gets us what we deserve,to be sure.

In any case, I don't think that referring to a candidate as a "scumbag" rates much higher. This kind of criticism gets us what we deserve,to be sure

I think that Zaphod feels the same way that I feel. Anyone who got us into this war is worthy of scorn, including John Edwards.

I think that Zaphod feels the same way that I feel. Anyone who got us into this war is worthy of scorn, including John Edwards.

I agree with you there. Edwards vote to give Bush authority, yadda yadda, was the biggest strike against him, although in the end I did end up caucusing for him for policy reasons.

Zap, I meant to add that I loved the pink sneaks bit.

chuss