Name a Clinton senate accomplishment..

Ding..

There are no major accomplishments. We have had a Republican Majority and presidential override that has kept democrats from getting any big things done.

We can list the Clinton accomplishments and Obama accomplishments again as has been done a dozen times before and be impressed with ourselves, but none are memorable and if you stand outside a Clinton event, you would find the Clintonbots, just as clueless.

And you cut it off before he talked about DOMA and Bill Clinton bragging about it in his reelection campaign.

Ditto RedSeven. This strawman has been beaten to death.

Geez when did I move to Vatican City?

"He's infallible, He can't fuck up."

Welcome to the reign of Innocent XIV.

Since Rome is just around the corner, I think I will go out for a pizzetta by piazza.

Arrevederchi America! Tuoto Bene. Benevenuto al fascismo.

Carlo il radicale

Red is right on. When people are asked about what hillary has done. Its 1) Health care (which failed because she sucks are working with people) 2) Being in the white house. (which hasn't seemed to have given her any real leg up, and lead her into a world of poor choices such as Iraq and poor campaign management and vision.)

QNorm and Charles Lemos:

TAke a sec and read your own post: Pay Attention.

Then reread this post, and the two comments you've posted. How can you expect us to "criticize ideas, not people" when the only things you write are outright slurs at entire groups of people?

Talk about a double standard on a blog that will quickly lose loyal readers.

"Talk about a double standard on a blog that will quickly lose loyal readers."

I've been a silent evangelist for this site for a long time now. Posting links and sharing stories from this site, I've managed to get most of my close friends and family on board as regular readers. At first I tried to defend the site when they started asking me about all the anti-Obama posts lately, but I just can't do it any more. Many of them have stopped reading, and I'm pretty close to doing the same :(

here's a thought exercise.

can you imagine Dan going to a Hillary convention and asking the same questions?

i'm not asking that we compare answers.

i'm just saying - what do you think the reaction of the attendees would be to the same questions.

and then think of why Dan could only ask those questions at a Barack convention and not a Hillary convention.

Unlike republicans, I think democrats are generally uncomfortable with the cult of the personality, unless it's a dead personality like JFK or MLK or RFK or FDR.

Obama isn't the messiah, for sure, but anyone who thinks hillary has more "experience" because she slept in the White House needs to come off it. This election is not about experience, Bush proved that you can have experience and be surrounded by experience and still f*ck it up if your judgment is faulty.

With all her "experience" in the White House, Hillary still voted for the war. Why? Because she thought that she could never be elected president if she didnt show some balls. Well, she showed balls and now she's about to get them snipped.

Another note about experience. Please have a look at how much legislative experience Lincoln had before he became president. About the same as Obama. We don't know if Obama is another Lincoln or another dubya, but after 7 years of disaster, I think Americans are willing to try something completely different.

Obama isn't the messiah, for sure, but anyone who thinks hillary has more "experience" because she slept in the White House needs to come off it.

Indeed. An awful lot of people slept in the White House during that administration.

This country deserves Barack Obama.

I couldn't agree more. Stupid is as stupid does. To quote a great American of the celluloid variety. Kinda matches Barack, doesn't it?

Terry and ZDZP, you both make really solid points.

But--more generally, American voters are often misinformed, and it hardly seems distinctive of Obama. The recent 60 minutes episode, where a women claimed she would vote for Hillary, because Bill did well with the economy as president, and would be a good advisor, is typical. See here

http://www.redlasso.com/ClipPlayer.aspx?id=77afc2f0-f014-4577-8e49-8e45751c9c95

The claim that Hillary has more "experience" is typical of the kind of evidence-free blanket assertions that seems to convince people. Like her claim that she'd do better against McCain in the general, either no evidence is mentioned, or evidence that flatly contradicts it is ignored.

You want accomplishments, these are off the top of my head:

• Extended period of unemployment assistance to victims of 9/11.

• Paid for New York City projects in response to 9/11.

• Assisted land mine victims in other countries with health care, job training and financial assistance.

• Assisted family caregivers in accessing affordable respite care.

Four off the top of my head. I am sure that there is more.

But no let me repeat my conversations with Clinton supporters when I stop them on the street. I ain't shy. Wear a button, I'll approach you. Be forewarned.

Clinton supporters talk about things like SCHIP, her work as First Lady, has there ever been a better one? But mostly they all pretty much say one thing over and over again.

She is a DEMOCRAT.

Not one. Not a single fucking moron, because that is by and by what they are, has ever said to me because he is a Democrat. Look many of you hold thoughtful positions. JoAnn bless her soul argues policy. She is one in a million. That's why Norm and I adore her. She at least talks the way one should. Most of the rest of you just recite: He is going to change the country. Well tell me how. Problem is you can't. Await my next two posts. The one you have always wanted, the case for Hillary. The other one is the one I have always wanted to write.

Adam, you keep me up all night. For the life of me how someone as bright as you can fall for Obama is beyond me. I mean you get everything right, then you make the wrong choice at the end. Why? Where does the logic breakdown? You are aware of the problem, you walk through the role of corporations in American public life, you see the danger and then you dive right in. Obama is the corporate candidate. Perhaps that is not evident.

For the life of me how someone as bright as you can fall for Obama is beyond me.

I see Charlie hasn't caught upon his reading.

You want accomplishments, these are off the top of my head:

Honestly, you think people repeat these in line to here events?

She is a DEMOCRAT.

Maybe the fucking morons have heard that they are both democrats.

things like SCHIP

That makes one in 16 years in washington. What exactly did she do with that again?

her work as First Lady

That as specific as they get?

Obama is the corporate candidate. Perhaps that is not evident.

It's not clear how the DLC candidate is somehow less corporate then the non DLC candidate.

I hope you will enlighten us with your next 5,000 word diatribe.

Lawrence Lessig (who created the group Change Congress, who wants to change how campaigns are financed, and is a major proponent of copyright reform) Supports Obama because Obama's policies agree with his idea that copyright is a major impediment to free speech. Also, it's interesting that he doesn't have a problem with Obama's rejection of Public Financing, due to the way Obama's campaign is raising money, mostly from small donors.

JoAnn bless her soul argues policy. She is one in a million.

One in a million? I can see at least 20 commentors here who argue policy.

• Assisted land mine victims in other countries with health care, job training and financial assistance.

Correct me if i'm wrong, but didn't Obama vote to reduce the use of cluster bombs? Oh yes.. Here it is

Obama voted in favour of limiting use of the bombs, while Clinton and 69 other senators opposed the spending limits, defeating the proposal.

This country deserves Barack Obama. ... I couldn't agree more. Stupid is as stupid does.

WTH? I don't think that's helping.

I couldn't agree more. Stupid is as stupid does. To quote a great American of the celluloid variety. Kinda matches Barack, doesn't it?

What evidence is there that Obama is "stupid"?

Loving the policy discussion charles.

"Your heart tells you everything you need to know."

What was that about taking the strongest part of your opponent's argument and putting that forward, eh Norm?

"What evidence is there that Obama is "stupid"?

Loving the policy discussion charles."

lol this blog cracks me up

Lemos Redseven,

before this post turns into a she did this, he did that series of arguments (not that it wouldn't be helpful) the point of the clip (perhaps the humor of it - OK - maybe even the satirical part of it) was to demonstrate that, anecdotally, people Dan interviewed at the Barack convention do not know what Barack's accomplishments are. that's it - it's not an investigative report or journalistic fact check - it's what comes across as entertaining and maybe thought-provoking- which is why most people watch bill maher.

Adam- your point is well taken - i think it is easier for the media and comedy personalities to make fun of what is most easily accessible and that is why the Dan interview strikes more of a chord than a search to 60 minutes transcript (not that it is generally true or untrue, etc) - it is just funny to hear people say things you imagine they would not, at least not in front of camera;

most voters are lazy and as you say misinformed - this I agree with completely. they really shouldn't be looking to bill maher or jon stewart for news or political commentary but most people would rather be entertained than educated.

i think i proposed the thought experiment more of comment on people's attitudes and the reality that hillary supporters are a truly different mix from obama supporters and that is also how the media perceives them

Not one. Not a single fucking moron, because that is by and by what they are, has ever said to me because he is a Democrat.

Wow... I mean wow.

From Wikipedia:

Moron (psychology), a psychology-related term for a person with a mental age between 8 and 12

Moron (phage), an extra gene present in prophage genomes which do not have an explicit phage function

Moron, in Mormonism, a later Jaredite king

So, since you want to talk about it... how many people have you talked to about why they support Obama? What were their average age? What how long did you talk with them? What were your questions?

before this post turns into a she did this, he did that series of arguments (not that it wouldn't be helpful) the point of the clip (perhaps the humor of it - OK - maybe even the satirical part of it) was to demonstrate that, anecdotally, people Dan interviewed at the Barack convention do not know what Barack's accomplishments are.

That's exactly where I started.

I'm so offended. We all the the average person in the U.S. is smart.

Proof

The point of the clip (perhaps the humor of it - OK - maybe even the satirical part of it) was to demonstrate that, anecdotally, people Dan interviewed at the Barack convention do not know what Barack's accomplishments are.

The point of the clip was to be funny and sell soap. Norm's point may well have been something else.

Wow, i thought there was some agreement not to be personal, all in response to a humourous little video. Strangely I agree with Lemos, I am not supporting Obama because he is a "democrat" and frankly I am not supporting Obama based on policy, I am supporting Obama because:

1. In our current 2 party system, even with Nader, I believe he is more likely to win than Hillary. I would be interested in others opinions on this as if you could convince me Hillary is more likely to win, i would change my mind, as I think Hillary has done very well so far with her campaigning, just not as well as Obama. I "hope" (please no nausea) that his popularity will sweep progressive and good candidates into the senate and congress. The only real way that certain policies will change is with people in the senate and congress voting for them.

2. I support Obama because he is not a traditional democrat. I like him because he might consider having republicans in his cabinet. I like him because my conservative friends actually don't mind him, i like him because he talks about personal responsibility much more than the traditional democrat. I like him because he speaks much more strongly on civil liberty issues.

3. The reason that Obama may be doing better Charles (if i may i be so bold) is that

   She is a DEMOCRAT.,>

   yes a democrat, in bold face and capitals; much of America would prefer open discussion of issues and policies without large labels. I think one of the reasons the US is such a backwater on public policy issues is that so much of the political debate is framed in rhetoric from republicans and democrats. Why do you think that Obamas plan is different than Hillary's especially in the wordiing, he want to appeal to the people that hate the ideas of mandates, being forced into things, he is puposely appealing to the middle rather than the hard "democratic" left, and well i like him for that.

4. Finally, there is a case for Hillary, and I believe most of the posters here know it, they are not stupid they just have reached a different conclusion based on the evidence. But some of us, practical folk, can see someone that even if Hillary was more right on the issues, that having someone elected with enough support to do something is actually more important.

Signed, coolaid drinking moron,

Finally, there is a case for Hillary, and I believe most of the posters here know it, they are not stupid they just have reached a different conclusion based on the evidence

yeah, well, the official opinion of onegoodmove is that if you are an Obama supporter, you are an idiot. I can't take anymore of this divisiveness, and I it really hurts to say this because this has my favorite blog for many years. I don't have a problem with people disagreeing with me, but when the conversation becomes this angry, it's time to leave. So sad.

Hillary still voted for the war. Why? Because she thought that she could never be elected president if she didnt show some balls. Well, she showed balls and now she's about to get them snipped.

Snipped balls? Oh, ha ha, foolish one! You make Hillary laugh by underestimating the size of her arsenal of readily-accessible ball stockpiles.

She's got more spare balls than a bowling league in those pantsuits of hers.

Fear her. Seriously. She ain't gonna back down.

nice review below of their senate records, LA times Ends with

As their competition for the Democratic nomination has moved forward, both Clinton and Obama have pointed to their Senate experience -- for Clinton her claim of greater experience, for Obama his professed ability to effect change. There is one lesson of their Senate service that neither emphasizes, though: how hard changing things really is.

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-senatedems26feb26,0,4046334.story?page=2

yeah, well, the official opinion of onegoodmove is that if you are an Obama supporter, you are an idiot.

Seems so. Which is strange, considering that the pro-Hillary folks now find themselves fighting on the same side of the fence as Rush Limbaugh and Ann Coulter (and her adams apple of terror).

And really, come on, people, Rush and Ann Coulter?! That's not just a ringing endorsement for Obama - that's an ear-splitting cacaphony of bells, whistles, alarms, sirens......it's the nuclear reactor meltdown of endorsements for Obama is what it is.

If you are looking for an Obama accomplishment, how about this: He has kicked Hilary’s butt thus far and shows that he can probably win the presidency. Dan Savage mocking Obama supporters is too ironic for words. He should go back to giving advice on butt plugs and how to avoid eye injuries during an orgy, or does he still write the Savage Love column? His political opinions are nothing I care to hear.

After Bush I would gladly vote for a candidate who is highly intelligent and articulate. Obama more than fits that bill. Just what qualifications does a president need, exactly? And since when does what a candidate promise during the campaign go on to become policy? Quick, name one thing Bill Clinton promised as a candidate that he actually served up as policy?

Edwards was my first choice but he isn’t in it now, neither is Hilary for that matter. I support Obama because I think that he can win, and not only win but win by a landslide. The Dems need a landslide; no close calls, no almosts. And when Obama is president and he does something with which we disagree, we will let him know it. Because we put him there he will probably listen, unlike another Republican president.

Dear Charles,

Arrevederchi America! Tuoto Bene. Benevenuto al fascismo.

Or:

I couldn't agree more. Stupid is as stupid does. To quote a great American of the celluloid variety. Kinda matches Barack, doesn't it?

I'm a Hillary supporter myself. And I've defended this position here many times. But posts like this are enough to make me change my vote.

Which I won't, of course. Because I'm not that childish. (Although thankfully it'll all be over come tomorrow.) But posts like this make it hard to admit that I support and like Hillary Clinton. Because, you know, I never thought Obama supporters were stupid fascists..