I guess even an atheist like me could have a favorite Bible verse:

...I tell you the truth, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God. Matthew 19:24

or

"Beware of practicing your piety before men in order to be seen by them; for then you will have no reward from your Father who is in heaven."
Matthew 6:1

Biden gets a a gold star, for his: Christ's warning of the Pharisees.

Number 10 should be right up there along side the number one (scary stuff). That one was pure gold. The reason Mitt had a tough time saying that he takes every word of the bible as literal truth....cause when a smart/logical person really sits down and thinks about it....you know deep down many of the verses are just complete BS. Really reads as a story a bunch of old men created a couple thousand years ago. But if he wanted any chance of winning the nomination, especially in America, he had no choice I suppose. Anyways some of those were very disturbing.

Excellent synchronicity Norm: I was just writing about that evil lefty despot that Pastor Pat wants to ice in the name of Jesus -- he liberated another 4 FARC hostages yesterday. And I couldn't help but wonder: with a devil like that, who needs Jesus?

This atheist's favorite Bible verse:

"For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all [is] vanity. All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again." —Ecclesiastes 3:19

Even an atheist like me knows that St Francis did not appear in the Bible.

What sort of Christians are these?

Sorry - me being pedantic again

Of course, Obama's "kingdom on Earth" frightens me but I am guessing that he is just pandering because that is what he does best.

Huckabee credits his rise in the polls and his success to the same forces that allowed a "boy" to feed thousands from a few fish and loaves. I am not a Baptist preacher like he is but wasn't Jesus Christ more like 30 years old when he accomplished that feat?

I do love Biden's wit. I could have lived with Biden. Metaphorically of course.

On Edwards, I wish he would have her, that's none of your damn business. Just once I'd like to hear that answer in a debate or interview. Especially to any Tim Russert question.

I'll throw Obama a bone. He's right about the Sermon on the Mount but that's actually a Buddhist text that predates Christianity by 400 years. I guess they don't teach that at Occidental or Columbia. They did at Stanford. But I am just being ornery. I do like to put those Ivy Leaguers in their place. Michelle Obama did go to Princeton. I am impressed by her. Her husband not so much.

Charles

I suppose this will trickle down to the world of t.v. commercials:

"Blessed art thou, o Ford my car....."

http://boskolives.wordpress.com/

A quick comment... insofar as I know, the Constitution does not (as the video suggests) guarantee a Democracy.

But I'm just being pedantic, since we now refer to the kind of government that the Constitution puts forward as a Democracy.

I have to admit that I am really irked by the Huckabee comments. I mean Jesus did work up to that miracle on the shores of Lake Galilee. His career did start as one who could water into wine. Jesus kinda of paced himself. His closing acts were rising from the dead and then ascending into heaven. Impressive. Where does Huckabee get off touting Jesus the little boy? Okay at 12 Jesus did hit Jerusalem and impressed the scholars with his knowledge of the Torah. But Mozart was writing whole symphonies at age 7. That's a prodigy. What was Jesus doing at age 7? Building benches.

Living God? If he is so alive, why can't we ever just sit down and chat? And doesn't anyone find it odd that for 3,000 years God kept on sending these prophets and now apparently when we need them most he stops sending them? What kind of sick God is that?

And Obama grows up an atheist. I would have killed for that privilege. Instead I got shipped off to a Catholic boarding school where I was tortured. Thankfully I found Darwin early on. So what kind of intellect converts to Christianity at age 30? How stupid can one be?

Obama's Power of Prayer. What a fucking joke. Here's a little story. After the Spanish-American War, William McKinley had a dilemma. His US Navy had sailed into Manila Bay and now he had a little decision to make and a rather big rebellion to quell. He didn't know what to do. And so McKinley prayed. And God told him in his prayers to annex the Philippines because it was his duty to Christianize those savages. Christianize! Well dear Bill McKinley the Spanish having been there since 1580s had already done that. That's why the Philippines is the only Catholic nation in Asia. So much for the "power of prayer."

TR called Thomas Paine a "filthy little atheist." Geez, what the fuck is wrong with atheism? Why do allow these religious idiots to rule over us?

Charles

bring up religion and everybody goes ballistic around here

I am wondering if anyone reading this is familiar with the work of Don Beck and what he has dubbed 'Spiral Dynamics'?

Here's a very brief intro:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spiral_dynamics

If Obama doesn't already understand this intellectually, he knows it by instinct. It is well known that Bill Clinton has great respect for Beck's work and this way of looking at the development of consciousness and world views.

What you, Charles, call Obama's pandering is an absolutely necessary part of going for the presidency at this time in history. As much as many of the readers here hate this, them's the parameters of the game.

Nevermind his religious affiliation -- think about whether he himself would also fight for your right to be an atheist?

So what kind of intellect converts to Christianity at age 30? How stupid can one be?

2007: Obama the athiest announces his candidacy for president.

Feb 5, 2008: Hillary sweeps the primaries, and it becomes a hillary/mccain race.

Charles, you need to go back to the Faith/Obama discussion from a couple weeks back and read all the quotes from obama (that Joann so kindly supplied) about how we need to be reason based, and if religious people think their ideas are better, they can't use the bible to prove it. Science must be used, proof must be used. I don't have a problem with faith in itself, but when faith overrides reason or evidence, red flags are raised.

He sure does sound stupid.

As a Canadian there are many opportunities to gloat when discussing American politics/government. Separation of c&s was once an example of this. Regretfully with the new imported brand of Canadian conservatism we are slowly loosing this high ground. Our current PM is a homo-hating, environment killing, anti-science creationist (sound familiar?).

You get Alex Keating and Barbed Wire while we get Adam and Eve...nice trading partners.

Just venting I guess, thanks.

It is so difficult for me to understand why religion remains such a central component of politics in this country.

Look at a fucking Spain (Norm is having an influence on me with the expletives), a dark Catholic nation for centuries and yet it is more progressive than the United States.

Only in Ireland and Poland does a higher percentage of the population attend weekly services.

I admit what set me and why I asked Norm to post this clip were Huckabee, a Baptist preacher, attributing a miracle to Christ as "a little boy" when the Gospels seem to indicate that it occurred when Christ was about 30. And no one fucking called him on his little slip of the tongue. He's a preacher. He shouldn't make a mistake like that. And his calls to amend the Constitution to reflect God's Law should attract universal condemnation.

And people should be outraged about Obama's comments especially if you are atheist. The McKinley story clearly shows what a crock the power of pray is. God would have known that the Philippines was already Christian. McKinley's ignorance was led to a 48 year tenure over the Philippines.

And those comments about "a kingdom on Earth." If John Edwards had made comments like that, I would not support no matter if I agreed with everything else he stated and if offered me the chance to be in the Cabinet. Where are your principles? When someone talks like we should go "ballistic"? We are atheists and religion is evil. If you are secular humanist how are you not offended by all this?

Even in my native Colombia religion doesn't have this sort of sway over politics. It is unreal.

well I for one never said I was a secular humanist and also didn't say I wasn't offended by all this.

I wouldn't say religion right across the board is evil either, and it's great to have the discussion about it

my point was that there are other ways to view this issue and I believe Obama, and surely the Clintons understand why they have to make these pronouncements, given who the electorate is.

not saying it's right; just saying it's a smart move in this game.

charles, did you bother to look at the link to Beck's work? the field of history and political science is a far cry from consciousness studies, but what Beck has done is to use the later to take a very much larger view of the former two. You're a smart guy. Take a look.

I had read a review of the book a long time ago and an article on South Africa's changes between 1990 and 2000.

I'll try and pick up the book.

Thanks.

I can accept private faiths. Clinton I think has one. And she is a Methodist, the good works people. But there is a line that cannot or should not be crossed. Huckabee is so far over the line that he can't see the line to quote to Joey Tribianni. Obama, I believe, is just pandering. I actually don't think he is religious at all. It is an act of cold political calculation. I see a very different Obama than most.

Realize that I do exaggerate for effect at times. My style is to provoke. I know that it does not always serve me well. I know that.

I tend to be serious yet I get exasperated easily. I am also pretty good at recognizing my mistakes.

Where are your principles? When someone talks like we should go "ballistic"? We are atheists and religion is evil. If you are secular humanist how are you not offended by all this?

I can accept private faiths. Clinton I think has one. And she is a Methodist, the good works people. ... Obama, I believe, is just pandering.

I'm offended by this, but if I make a commitment to shun those who wear religion for the purpose of political expediency, I have few choices. I think Hillary is just as phony as Obama when it comes to religion, but perhaps I'm wrong. I think McCain is a religious phony too. Nader's quixotic candidacy doesn't interest me in the slightest – I think it's a wasted vote in spite of the unconvincing arguments to the contrary.

Pragmatically speaking, atheists and genuine believers simply have to make their disgust with religious pandering clear to candidates: I'm voting for candidate X despite his/her sanctimonious slobbering, not because of it.

Tim,

You can run for office. I am not quite sure why you feel Hillary is just as phony. She does not wear her religion on her sleeve. I agree with you on McCain.

There is no such thing as a wasted vote. A spoiled vote yes. But wasted no. That is an American mentality and I am not quite sure where it comes from. No one else on the planet thinks like that (to my knowledge anyway).

Charles

Charles and Tim: I disagree with you both on HRC.

I think Clinton is sincere in her religious beliefs, and during her time as first lady held some good ol' Bible study in the White House and gave a rather racy speech that was supposed to be about health care, but turned out to be about religion and the "spiritual role" that government needs to play in the lives of das Volk. (I quoted portions of this speak from a sympathetic biography on her on the Faith/Obama thread early and am too lazy to search for it now: feel free to go look).

Although the pandering bothers me, like everyone else, more generally I can't tell whether Obama's religious belief is sincere, and actually, I don't give a shit: his position on the separation of church and state is crystal clear--let me here voice gratitude, along with some others, to Joann for setting this out in wonderful detail--and that, to me, is all that matters.

Except on gay marriage. Clinton and Obama both fail hugely on that in my score book--legal 'civil union' without the special label that grants social acknowledgment--and this is a place where their pandering to religious sensibilities has real world consequences I find abhorrent.

As an aside: I know religious people that find this pandering just as repulsive. And they should--and collusion of government with religion, tacit or otherwise, is a threat, minor or serious, to religious freedom.

I do believe that Huckabee may be the candidate that annoys me the most, but in the interest of accuracy, let me offer this. Charles writes: "Huckabee, a Baptist preacher, attributing a miracle to Christ as "a little boy" when the Gospels seem to indicate that it occurred when Christ was about 30." When he referenced the "little boy" I'm pretty sure Huckabee was basing it on this verse, and not referring to Christ by that part of the remark -- (John 6:5-11) (Verse 9) "9 'Here is a small boy with five barley loaves and two fish; but what is that among so many?'"

I tried posting this earlier, Norm. Please disregard if my other post came through. I do believe that Huckabee may be the candidate that annoys me the most, but in the interest of accuracy, let me offer this. Charles writes: "Huckabee, a Baptist preacher, attributing a miracle to Christ as "a little boy" when the Gospels seem to indicate that it occurred when Christ was about 30." When he referenced the "little boy" I'm pretty sure Huckabee was basing it on this verse, and not referring to Christ by that part of the remark -- (John 6:5-11) (Verse 9) "9 'Here is a small boy with five barley loaves and two fish; but what is that among so many?'"