On an unrelated note...Tom Sullivan of Fox News must have been reading onegoodmove lately....

http://mediamatters.org/items/200802130016?f=h_latest

why can't Hillary or Barack make a speech saying the same thing

Maybe because they would like to do the same thing too when they take office. If you take a stance against fear-mongering, you will have a harder time doing it yourself during your administration.

Neither Hillary nor Obama are in any way "The Opposite of What Bush Is." A lot of people have this delusion toward the Dems, that they are everything the Repulicans are not.

They will certainly make the speech...if they lose to the Republicans this fall you will see them giving this speech for sure...like the Democrates always do, too little too late. Think Al Gore, John Karrey.

terrorisms aim is to terrorize to achieve a political end. President Bush uses terror to scare (terrorize) the citizens of the United States and the Congress in order to gain a political end (pass a law) Therefore Bush is a terrorist.

BTW, I am now in violation of the Smith Act, still on the books, look it up.

Damn! these special comments seem to be polishing up a critical stance towards all the contradictions going on! Keith's smarts and intentions are well placed to strengthen the America's ability to start thinking, to start making things work properly and to keep a focused check on executive and legislative abuse. Thank you Keith!

Senate vote: "To strike the provisions providing immunity from civil liability to electronic communication service providers for certain assistance provided to the Government."

Result: Amendment Rejected

McCain (R-AZ), Nay
Obama (D-IL), Yea
Clinton (D-NY), Not Voting

Before the elections, nobody will say anything this strong. Obama's working too hard on both parties to be seen as weak on terra, and clinton apparently doesn't care if we become a fascist state, since she won't be bothered to even show up to defend privacy rights.

There is NO Damn excuse why hillary couldn't have been there to vote on this. It's her job. Sacrifice that one stump speech to protect our liberties please.

Bill Clinton:

"the caucuses aren't good for her. They disproportionately favor upper-income voters who, who, don't really need a president but feel like they need a change."

Good to know that anyone making above $100,000/yr doesn't need a president. Of course, this statement is not true, on either count. Bill's just trying to discount anyone who doesn't vote for his wife. Bill's mouth is outpacing his charisma lately.

Obama (D-IL), Yea Clinton (D-NY), Not Voting

This vote on the Dodd-Feingold Amendment to Strike Retroactive Immunity has given me the last bit of information I need to fully support Obama and reject Clinton.

So was Clinton essentially voting "present" or was she just not present?

And, Bill, wtf? The caucuses favor upper income voters so they aren't good for Hillary? Argh! True, I used to think that only upper middle class and up caucused, then I moved to a state where they caucus. Most of us in my precinct are midle class and lower. Plus, most of the Hillary Clinton supporters were in the higher income bracket. again - wtf?

A day late, but "I heart KO's special comment."

...now why can't Hillary or Barack make a speech saying the same thing.

Because, I would guess, that only a quarter of the country is as angry and cares.

Gypsy Sister, Hillary was campaigning in Texas while the vote was being held.

b.dewhirst. right. and obama managed to vote despite active campaigning as well. if the isssue mattered to hillary she could have voted on it.

And, for fairness sake, it should be mentioned that Obama was campainging in DC at the time, so it could have been lucky that he was there, so he voted. However, it should also be noted that no fewer than 6 hours before the vote, Hillary was in DC also (according to some reports), and left to texas before the vote was held

Bush/Cheney '08 - Third Reich's a Charm!

Norm,

Clinton voted for the Kyle-Lieberman bill (authorizing military force if necessary in Iraq). I'd rather have a no-show on that account than a "yea" vote.

It's not the ideal, but it's still another voting record which favors Obama over Clinton. In my opinion of course.

Agreed, and if the Kyl-Lieberman bill had mattered to Obama he could have been there to vote on it.

That is one of Obama's major weaknesses, his failure to show up for one too many votes.

Speaking of Olbermann, did anyone catch his "Worst person of the world"?

Feb. 14: Worst person: When a caller suggested to Tom Sullivan of Fox News Radio that Sen. Barack Obama’s speeches reminded him of Adolf Hitler, Sullivan took the time to alternate clips from Hitler and Obama speeches.

Hmmm... this reminded me of someone, but I couldn't quite put my finger on who.

link

"Oh, yeah, yeah ... I presume you're not saying he's Hitler, but I understand your point." Following the commercial break, Sullivan stated the caller "wasn't calling Barack Obama Hitler. He was just talking about how Hitler got the crowd all excited, and Barack Obama got the crowd all excited."

hmmm.. where have I heard that before?

"It's the speaking style, that's all, and the speaking style is kind of similar"

~Sullivan

"So you're not comparing Obama to Hitler, but!, you are comparing Obama's speaking style to Hitler's speaking style. So you're insisting you're not comparing them in any way, except when you are comparing them in that way."

~Olbermann

Nor am I accusing him of being a totalitarian ruler in waiting, rather that he has the potential for authoritarianism.

~Lemos

Nor is it fair to state that by arguing against Obama, I am arguing for Clinton. It is not a zero-sum game for me. I understand that for you it is a zero-sum game. I believe that there are other options.

~Lemos

Oh, so you're just comparing them in that way?

What are the other "options"? McCain?!

I have thought a lot about Lemos' response to me. Yes, I'm a "prolific poster" on this topic. Why? Because although I welcome different ideas, and I am not a die-hard Obama supporter, the kind of arguments that Lemos has been making smells too much like the kind of arguments that I hear from Faux News. Call that a cheap shot if you want, but that's how it comes across to me.

As Norm brought up, I have only been critical of Hillary Clinton and not critical of Barack Obama. True. However, I am critical of how Hillary Clinton has voted. I have never, and would never, compare her style to any dictator. There's a big difference.

Theowne:

On an unrelated note...Tom Sullivan of Fox News must have been reading onegoodmove lately....

Ah, I just saw this while looking for the language to do a Google search on this and I note that no one resonded... hmm...

Agreed, and if the Kyl-Lieberman bill had mattered to Obama he could have been there to vote on it.

Now wait a second there Norm. You've been lecturing us on tu quoque defense.

So which is worse not voting on it or voting for it? kyl - lieberman bill that is.

On an unrelated note...Tom Sullivan of Fox News must have been reading onegoodmove lately....

Oberman did a whole segment on how offensive "lynch Mob" analogies were in any circumstances. First quoting bush in condemning the rhetoric and then some republican that made such a comparison.

Twice in a week I was woken from a nap, half expecting Oberman was talking about 1GM. Both times it was republicans.

Twice in a week I was woken from a nap, half expecting Oberman was talking about 1GM. Both times it was republicans

Well, I would say that "Twice in a week I was woken from a nap, half expecting Oberman was talking about Lemos. Both times it was republicans

JoAnn,

I am avoiding naming Lemos and Norm by name so as Norm doesn't boot me from the site, as I think he was almost there today.

It would be a shame if I couldn't post with you anymore.

RedSeven,

I too have enjoyed exchanging ideas with you and Adam. I think that Norm is annoyed with some other poster (I forget his name... d. hweirst... something or other... )

"So which is worse not voting on it or voting for it? kyl - lieberman bill that is."

The thing of it is is - Obama likes to tout how he's anti-Iraq war and Bush admin's policy in the Mid East. So, if he'd like to make that for the record, he should've come off the campaign trail to vote against declaring the Iranian Nat. Guard a terrorist organization. In terms of buttressing his position, both were equally bad. It is something that I've counted in my strikes against Obama, although I'm moer on board with him than with Clinton (who voted for the classification in question, so at least we know where she stands).

I will end the war in Iraq... I will close Guantanamo. I will restore habeas corpus.   -- Barack Obama, Des Moines, Iowa, Nov 10, 2007

Yeah, that really sounds like Hitler.

Also, I'd like it if anyone could find a reference to Sen. Clinton making those exact promises...

I will end the war in Iraq... I will close Guantanamo. I will restore habeas corpus. -- Barack Obama, Des Moines, Iowa, Nov 10, 2007

I will stay in Iraq for 100 years - John McCain

I will double Guantanamo - Mitt Romney

Habeas Schmabeus - George Bush ;)

Hey, maybe Hitler gave lots of speeches about "hope" and "change".

It was all in German.

Hey, maybe Hitler gave lots of speeches about "hope" and "change".

Hey, maybe he did. Thanks for the cautionary tale. I'll pay more attention now to reason and less to flowery speech.

Also, I'd like it if anyone could find a reference to Sen. Clinton making those exact promises...

So far sound of crickets...

Okay, so no more sound of crickets... ;)

The discussion and vetting these two candidates has now become more substantial. Yes! :)

A little more on Barack's voting. While initially he did vote against the expansion of wiretapping, and worked on a more restrictive amendment, in the end he also did not vote on the bill:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/13/us/13fisa.html?th=&adxnnl=1&emc=th&adxnnlx=1203198733-m/ULI7QmnCmQqzhFN44wZQ

Here's an op-ed from the NYT explaining the strategy of "present" voting in the Illinois legislature: http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/16/opinion/16mikva.html?_r=1&th&emc=th&oref=slogin

So Obama is a moderate and knows how to strategize. Not all bad. He's still left of Clinton from what I've seen.