onegoodmove

I think Wolf pretty much summarizes why I ended up voting for Obama... I had a hard time choosing, to be fair, and wasn't able to find very many concrete, issue-based differences. And I wasn't sure that Clinton's health care plan wasn't a bit better. But fundamentally, I'm with Wolf that restoring the rule of law, and reversing our present course toward a straight up police state, really have to trump everything else, when these things are in conflict (I'll grant the premise that they are for the sake of argument).

Health care is very important. But the erosion of civil liberties is very hard to undo once it gets going, and as societal issues go, I can't think of anything with a more lasting impact.

Norm, I doubt you have anything to disagree about: I'm sure Jim's point is the same one I've made ad nauseam: if the bill of rights is dead, then there is no leverage for doing anything about health care, the Earth, the poor, or anything else. In Klein's formulation: as long as the MCA is enforceable, then so is silence.

I should clarify something since I'm an Aussie. "The Australian" newspaper is a Murdoch newspaper. So even in the Murdoch press down here in Australia, your country's perversion of civil liberties is widely reported.

We wouldn't go a week in Australia without a mainstream newspaper reporting on torture or Guantanemo bay or some other human rights abuse by the US government. As a result, the interest in the democratic primaries down here has been massive, because we hope you guys will come to your senses and pick a democrat next time (especially Obama).

Norm, I am curious for an answer to my previous query...

ie. how a solid progressive like you can defend Sen. Clinton, a woman who has a consistent record of selling out progressives for political expediency with no shame.

defend Sen. Clinton

I'm not sure what you mean. Pointing out flaws in Obama is not the same as defending Clinton, although there are many here who conflate the two.

I doubt you have anything to disagree about

It's the same sort of disagreement we have on healthcare the positions are close and they are also close on civil liberties. You're not saying Hillary Clinton is a George Bush when it comes to civil liberties are you.

Thanks for the info Lachlan

Let's let the courts decide the president again! Hillary '08!

I don't think it can be overstated how big of an endorsement Naomi is for BO. When you think of what she represents to Clinton's base of feminists - you have to wonder how many will now feel they can ride the Obama train while keeping feminist street cred intact.

"Pointing out flaws in Obama is not the same as defending Clinton, although there are many here who conflate the two."

That is because you have put up countless posts-- and guest-posts-- in the past two weeks lambasting Obama, but I haven't seen Clinton get the same treatment. I would have no problem with you being critical of Obama if you weren't giving his more conservative opponent in this primary a pass.

And I know that your big sticking point is health-care, but I cannot believe so many progressives as believing that Hillary's mandates-- a gift to her friends in the insurance lobby-- even remotely constitute "universal health care".

I'd appreciate some followup on this. Thanks!

3) A Choice of a Public Plan Option: In addition to the array of private insurance choices offered, the Health Choices Menu will also provide Americans with a choice of a public plan option, which could be modeled on the traditional Medicare program, but would cover the same benefits as guaranteed in private plan options in the Health Choices Menu without creating a new bureaucracy. The alternative will compete on a level playing field with traditional private insurance plans. It will provide a more affordable option, in part through greater administrative savings. It will not be funded through the Medicare trust fund.

with you being critical of Obama if you weren't giving his more conservative opponent in this primary a pass.

The problems with Hillary are well known there is little to argue about. Her vote for the authorization, been there done that. On most issues there is little difference so we have focused on only those issues where there are important differences and I find that her views are closer to mine than Barack's views on the issues most important to me and so I raise those issues. You don't criticize me for not giving John McCain's views equal time, why? I have a view and since it's my forum I express it. I don't just report the news I express opinions about it and often they won't match yours, but you are certainly able to express the reasons you disagree in the comments. If you thought Clinton was the better candidate I suspect I wouldn't being getting the same criticism from you. I really don't care for either candidate though they are both better than McCain, and I recommend that anyone in a state that matters should support the Democratic nominee.

http://www.thenation.com/docprint.mhtml?i=20080317&s=berman

Hey look, the Clinton campaign wants to drive the DNC to the right.

That is great.

A week later, Democratic strategist James Carville, another prominent Clintonite, labeled the DNC leadership "Rumsfeldian in its competence," and called on Dean to resign. He floated the name of Harold Ford Jr., now chair of the right-leaning Democratic Leadership Council, as a replacement. There was rampant speculation inside the Beltway that Carville wasn't offering an unsolicited opinion but rather carrying water for the presumptive Democratic presidential nominee, Hillary Clinton.

Speaking of language and grammar....Norm, can you please put question marks at the end of your questions?

quick reference to comments i made yesterday: "how many white men won't vote for a black man or a white woman" and "screw the polls, they've been wrong"

well interesting poll results just in: http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2008/02/democratssplittoo/

"A new Pew survey finds that, while John McCain has made some progress in building support among conservative Republicans, a significant number of white Democrats would not vote for Barack Obama"

not that that would apply to any 1GMers.

While we're talking about civil liberties, this might be of interest to some of you:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=IWxpQ87C4t4