please note This post is mostly a response to the many direct questions addressed to Charles that didn't get covered in the comments. It will also be the last by him on this particular topic.
contributed by Charles Lemos
Benjamin Disraeli, the long serving British Tory Prime Minister from the Victorian Era, was asked that question, what the difference is between a disaster and a calamity. His response, using as a foil the leader of the Liberal opposition William Gladstone, is one of the greatest quips in political history. Disraeli, in a typical dry British wit, responded wryly that a disaster would be if Gladstone were to fall into the Thames and a calamity would be if someone were to pull him out. That is how I have to come to view the Democratic Primary. For the progressive left, it is now a question of a disaster versus a calamity.
My main complaint is that many of you are reading things that I did not say. Briefly though, I never compared Obama to Shi’ites. I suggested that you read Canetti for his description of the Shi’ites as it illuminates their behaviour. Nor am I accusing him of being a totalitarian ruler in waiting, rather that he has the potential for authoritarianism. I think both Nixon and Reagan were authoritarian for example. And I think Obama wants to be a Democratic Reagan. I am uncomfortable with tyranny from the left or the right. Blair made Britain a society under surveillance and that worries me because like Britain the United States is becoming a surveillance society. According to the London-based NGO Privacy International, the United States is already an “endemic” surveillance society. For more on Privacy International, please visit their website: http://www.privacyinternational.org/
Many of you also accused me a painting Obama as a Fascist. My comparisons actually ran across the political spectrum. They were from the right, the left and the political center. I do not want another Tony Blair who incidentally also shares with Obama, a late in life religious conversion. Nor is it fair to state that by arguing against Obama, I am arguing for Clinton. It is not a zero-sum game for me. I understand that for you it is a zero-sum game. I believe that there are other options.
I also recognize that Canetti is a difficult subject to cover in the limited time and space I have. There is also a socio-biological component to his argument that I did not cover. The baiting crowd arises from humanity’s long history of hunting in packs. To some extent it is in our genes (today is Charles Darwin’s birthday, so Happy Birthday Charles!). We are nothing more than a third species of chimpanzee. Along with our cousins, chimpanzees and bonobos, we have long hunted in groups or packs. Genocide is a human trait. We do it and chimpanzees do it. Bonobos do not but they have sex all the live long day so who has time for a killing, metaphorically or otherwise your own kind if you are a bonobo. Some of your reactions were emotions typical of a baiting crowd.
On to the responses:
To Jo Ann who asked: Have you contributed any money or campaigned for either one of them?
I gave to Edwards or PACs that support Edwards. I have also given modest amounts ($50 or less) to Dodd, Biden, Gravel and Green Party candidate Cynthia McKinney. I did volunteer for the Edwards campaign and he remains my choice for President. I will support Clinton with reservations and on Obama, probably not. But I do try to be objective on him. I see both good and bad though I primarily write about the bad because people refuse to even admit the possibility that he has any flaws. I wrote on his faith. I thought that would be a major issue for me but as I examined his faith, I found no serious objection to his faith. The only concern I still have is why as an adult he became a Christian since adult conversions are rare. George W. Bush had one though his was a response to his abuse of alcohol. And yes, I realize that Bush’s faith and Obama’s faith are far different. Still I cannot help but wonder if Obama’s faith was an act of political calculation. To have a political career in the United States as an atheist is perhaps impossible and Obama clearly has had long-standing political ambitions. His motives I question, his faith not so much though I find anyone with such a public faith to be clearly and utterly delusional. Private faiths, such as the Methodist faith of Mrs. Clinton, not so much. Read John Wellesley and you can understand that it is as much about good works as anything else.
And you also failed to read my posts accurately. I never compared Obama to Shi’ites. Nor did I suggest Obama supporters are global warming deniers. What I said that other examples of a lynching include what the right has done to Al Gore. The other example I gave is the lynching of John McCain by conservatives over their free speech arguments (McCain-Feingold). I also brought up the lynching of John Edwards over a haircut and the Lawrence O’Donnell and Guy Saperstein attacks on the Huffington Post. Please read with greater diligence.
I am basing my observations of cult-like behaviour of Obama supporters with empirical evidence. Throwing one’s panties at Obama is a sign of a cult follower. So was the comment that all Hispanics are evil. It’s the either your are with us or against us argument that is so prevalent in cults. To respond that Obama haters are a cult simply because we bring up flaws is a schoolyard taunt.
I have had numerous conversations with Obama supporters and not one has been able to give me a concrete substantive reason why they like Obama. Their reasons of support run like this: “He’s going to change the country by ending the partisan divide,” or “He stands for change.” They never cite policy positions. Not one Obama supporter has suggested to me why his health care policy is better than Hillary’s. On this blog, the positions are more erudite but out there the positions are more emotive than reasoned.
You were rather prolific in your responses. You also brought up immigration reform. I do not deny that Obama will work for comprehensive immigration reform. I noted that he has the order wrong. For Hispanics, and I am a Hispanic, the preferred order is green card first then licenses.
To Little Mickey who wrote: And this is Obama's fault how, exactly?
Because he doesn't dial his power to inspire down to imperceptable levels?
Because he manages to rouse and stir the unwashed masses into actually wanting to take part in the democratic process?
Your posts don't read like someone who is a rational, free-thinking, skeptic. Your posts sound like they are written by someone who is afraid of something. And I wish you'd just come out and say what it is already.
Obama is using language that others have used before and those who use that language have in the past posed anti-democratic threats. You may think that the argument is supercilious but I do not. Words matter. Obama strikes me potentially as another Richard Nixon and I am not alone in that assessment. Paul Krugman seems to agree.
And I have noted what I am afraid of. Mob rule is a bit of a stretch but I have asked twice that the readership look at Hamilton Nine and Madison Ten from the Federalist Papers and not one response seems to indicate that that part of my argument was been heeded. This is your country, not mine. I have three passports. I can live anywhere. You most likely cannot and your Founding Fathers are both brilliant observers and insightful prognosticators. You should heed their warnings. Tyranny has many cloaks.
thaddeusphoenix got it right when he noted: So... all that to say he's a rabble rouser. He's appealing to emotion more than intellect. And people who appeal to emotion to rouse the rabble (using the 'baiting' method), turn out to be bad people who do bad things. BTW I will always vote on issues, issue priority, electable, ability to perform in office, and my gut.
I appreciate your post because you make me question my gut, which is really the only thing that is separating the two candidates for me right now.
Thanks! If I have a complaint about Americans and the way they make political choices is that they have for too long made important decisions on style rather than substance. My litany of losers, that is candidates that I have supported in the past, include Paul Simon, Paul Tsongas, Bill Bradley and now John Edwards. The Democratic Party went for the more charismatic Michael Dukakis (okay this one I really don’t get), Bill Clinton, Al Gore (I was torn admittedly) and now Barack Obama. Charisma is how we got Reagan though it was also how we got Kennedy. Still I am not that big a fan of JFK (I don’t dislike him either) because his Presidency was cut short by an assassin’s bullet so his accomplishments were relatively few and his failures more than one. It is fair to say that had Kennedy lived longer, his Presidency might have had more long-lasting impact. But it was LBJ who brought forth both the Civil Rights Act of 1964 and the Voting Rights Act of 1965 knowing full-well that by doing so, he was surrendering the South to the GOP for quite some time to come. Would have Kennedy struck the same bargain? We will never know. LBJ also enacted the Great Society and yet he was undone by following a policy that JFK had already embarked upon: Vietnam. JFK’s role in Vietnam is overlooked by many, including the Kennedys.
Isabella Clark thinks that Frankly, this kind of argument is impossible to respond to. It is as if Lemos is trying out some form of rhetorical mental gymnastics to see where it ends up. I think he is playing a lethal game where his pleasure is to create fear and identify "bad" things. The reward is in solidifying a sense of himself that is insightful and heroic.
Why are we even trying to have a dialogue with this foolishness? It is sloppy reasoning, topped with a big schmear of self importance. It is as if Lemos walked into the middle of a fervent discussion of some subject of which he was unfamiliar. Instead of joining the discussion he remains, like many pundits, outside the circle, criticizing the people in fervent activity, rather than admitting that he feels left out.
Impossible for you perhaps, but not for others. Here is what someone else thought on another blog where my posts were cited.
*and “latent”? are you sure you understand Lemos’ post? 0r are you just a shill for the faux-one? please understand, its very sad when you can’t ever get a straight response from these robots — it would behoove y’all to come up with just 1 (one) positive actual thing barry o has actually accomplished (voting “present” doesn’t count) in his career or at all (getting into and graduating law school doesn’t count — we’ve all done that — and actually practiced law to boot!). maybe if you did, those of us who distrust the faux one and his followers might not distrust y’all so much.
the Lemos post was pretty brilliant. but still, lambert, your post “Obama Stump Speech Strategy Of Conciliation Considered Harmful” in late dec is still the gold standard explaining what’s wrong with the picture*
Or this one from Susan on our own thread:
Thanks to Norm for posting this, and Charles for writing it. You've addressed many of the aspects of this Obama-adoration that have bothered me, in an interesting way. I'll peruse your links as well. I supported Edwards and haven't been real excited about either of the other two since he dropped out-- but Obama's Super Tuesday speech bugged me in a way I wasn't able to quite identify, and this has helped a lot. Thanks!
So some beg to differ. And as for being left out. I don’t join cults. I am willing to die for my principles. I will be making my third trip to the Sudan and Tchad within the month, so I do take risks. And certainly I am willing to risk damage to my reputation in the near-term because I know that I am right in how I am assessing Elias Canetti. Read Canetti if you got a month or two. Or again, read something more accessible like the Federalist Papers. I offer food for thought but I will not spoon feed you either. You need to do your own work. It that sounds like an admonishment, it is.
Reed77’s response to me “the Dear Bigot letter” is now circulating elsewhere on how I hit a nerve. If am hitting nerves, then I am doing something right. And when others like Paul Krugman, Martin Lewis, and James Jarvis are picking up on the same trends, then I think Isabella you got a problem, a metaphorical one. I am not a lone dissenter but rather just one of many disparate voices arguing the same thing.
As for the Alice Palmer case. You asked me why the petitions that were struck were the signatures were those of the homeless and the poor. It is self-evident because that is who lives in that district on the South Side of Chicago. I have made the case that the homeless are disenfranchised in the United States because they cannot abide the laws since they lack a permanent address. It is a problem. The solution is a national voter identity card but in the United States it is the left, ironically, that is largely opposed to the idea. I am not. I have one in Colombia. I already knew the answer to my query when I posed it yet no one responded with that idea.
* Adam raised this point: I have no earthy clue why you want to hold against someone that he inspires people. I frankly find it sick that when there is finally someone who inspires people with something other than cynicism, it strikes our political culture "vague" and "flowery".*
It is not that he inspires people, it is how he is inspiring people and how much. It is style over substance. And the language he is using mirrors that of many from the past. Ronald Reagan in 1980 stated that the United States had “a rendez-vous with destiny.” In 2008, Obama offers us “a date with destiny.” Thanks, I am already married or domestic partnered because that is what the system will allow me. Funny, how gay marriage in my native Colombia is now working its way through the Colombian Congress. That Colombia will have gay marriage before the United States will speaks volumes. Hell, Spain and Uruguay already have gay marriage. Accomplishments inspire me, flowery rhetoric not so much. Policy dictates my choices, not emotion. But I am weird in that respect, I care to read to policy pronouncements.
Murdock brought up some interesting points that perhaps need further clarification:
Point One: But I respectfully disagree with their conclusions. Some of the readership also think that by questioning Obama’s credentials, I am arguing for Clinton." - Charles you have enough degrees to understand this: There are 2 candidates. If you argue against one and favor the other, your are..
I covered this already but I will elaborate some more. It is not a zero-sum game for me. Both candidates can lose in my mind. I can vote for John McCain if I vote my own narrow economic self-interest, something that I have never done nor am I likely to do. I can also go Green Party and support Cynthia McKinney or I can write-in John Edwards (probably what I will do). For you this election is a zero-sum game. For me, it ain’t. There are more choices than Clinton or Obama. You chose to buy into the two party system and fail to consider other options. As long as you continue to do that, you will, in effect, have no choice at all. I might argue that both parties are now effectively polarized and that is probably in the short-term not good but in the long-term not bad. We need more voices expressed than these two not so grand coalitions. There is a game theory component as to why this is but it is beyond the scope of this post.
Point Two: Charles estimation of the size of the baiting crowd is also highly suggestive (in a negative way). Why doesn't he want to size the group
I noted that Obama has elements of both a reversal crowd and a baiting crowd. I would think and hope that most Obama supporters are reversalists but some are clearly baiters. I am afraid I have no idea how large the baiting crowd is other than it is large. Your guess is as good as mine. Yours may even be better because I now largely avoid Obama supporters. Reasoning with them is beyond the possible. Another trait of a baiting crowd.
Red Seven writes: Questions that Charles and those that see Obama's followers as "Cult-Like". Do you see there being such a thing as a valid and rational "movement"? Isn't some emotional group dynamic of all movements? Are they by definition Cults?
True, all group dynamics involve some element of emotion. I noted it is that it is not that Obama makes emotive appeals because all politicians do as much as that he does so much of it. It is the level and the intensity that makes the distinction. Again there is a reversal element in Obama but there is also a very pronounced baiting element that is largely absent from other campaigns. The reversal emotion is throw the bums out; the baiting one is it is now or never and it is only us. That makes Obama more of a mass movement than a political campaign. And his movement has some millenarian overtones. That worries me. Again read the Federalist Papers.
* Tim brought up a lot of points in his comments but it is too long to reprint in full so I will cut and paste the main charge: You worry about Obama's heavy-on-inspirational tenor and you hear Peron, Franco, and Trujillo! But without identifying other characteristics that go into the kind of leader who constructs a cult of personality, your comparisons say more about you than Obama. Has Obama distorted facts (any more than usual in a political campaign) to vilify his opponents? No - amazingly, to my knowledge neither Clinton nor Obama has aired a single negative advertisement directed towards their opponents (or so claimed Paul Begala, a Clintonite, on Super Tuesday.) Is there any sense that Obama's election would signal some kind of extra-legal activities that accompany the establishment of a cult of personality? Only in your mind, I'm afraid.*
Obama had Carville and Begala removed from CNN in January. Silencing critics is in my mind though perhaps not yours a red flag. If now before he is entrusted with the Presidency, he takes to silencing critics how then how might he respond when he is President? That is what Krugman was referring to with his comments on Nixonland. Obama is behaving a lot like Richard Nixon. I have made that point already. Indeed, I raise that point in the Crossing the Mara:
http://onegoodmove.org/1gm/1gmarchive/2008/02/crossing_the_ma.html#more
Here are some links that cover the CNN dispute:
http://cadillactight.wordpress.com/2008/01/25/carville-and-begala-banned-from-cnn-due-to-obama-campaign-complaints/
http://www.thecarpetbaggerreport.com/archives/14355.html
Krugman also noted that the attacks, while emanating from both camps, have primarily come from the Obama camp. Especially the more vicious ones. I don’t disagree. I think Paul Krugman is right. And of course, Paul Krugman is being lynched today here and elsewhere.
Canetti is right when he notes that blind men are at the blindest when they think they can suddenly see. You see what you want to see. Bring up flaws of Mrs. Clinton and you will get responses arguing points. Bring up flaws of Obama and you are called a bigot.
I would dearly love to respond to more comments but the above pretty much cover the main criticisms of my argument as to why Canetti is right about the nature of crowds. Today is Charles Darwin’s birthday, the 199th anniversary of his birth, and I would have loved to have written a post about one of the most influential thinkers in the history of mankind, but alas I do not have the time because these posts do take time and while I think the ideas that I am expressing do matter because I clearly see a danger, I am forlorn in not being able to address other topics of relevant discussion because my time has been spent on discussing the social phenomenon that is Obama. I cannot devote this much time to Obama any longer. I have made my warnings clear. I have asked you to read Canetti if possible or at least to read the Federalist Papers. Another suggestion is to look at the work of Thomas Paine, perhaps the greatest American (though British born) thinker of his time. I urge this because you will find that both the right and the left and everyone in between claim Paine as one of theirs. Ronald Reagan was fond of quoting Paine. How Paine is quoted in this campaign is something to which you should pay attention.
My boyfriend is wont of telling me that I know the United States well but I do not know Americans at all. I think he is right. I have constantly misjudged the American propensity to vote for style over substance. You are doing it again.
Celebrate Darwin by looking at his work:
http://darwin-online.org.uk/
http://www.public.coe.edu/departments/Biology/darwin_bio.html
For more on human traits as they compared to our close cousins, I suggest Jared Diamond’s work, The Third Chimpanzee. It can be read in an afternoon. But here are some links that cover the work:
http://www.powells.com/cgi-bin/biblio?inkey=7-9780060984038-7
http://www.booktalk.org/the-third-chimpanzee.php
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Third_Chimpanzee
I also want to lament the passing of a dear friend, Tom Lantos. Tom and I worked together over the years on many human rights and global poverty issues. On both Rwanda and Darfur, Tom Lantos was a powerful voice for those who do not have a voice. My work continues because it is the also the work of Tom Lantos. I hope you make his work yours as well.
Let me also inform the readership that I contribute to this blog exclusively at the discretion of Norm. I email him the pieces and he reads them. He has made suggestions and based on that I have made one major edit. I will not suggest that Norm agrees with me entirely but at a minimum I think he finds them thought-provoking and I hope well-reasoned. He posts them, not I. We also speak frequently by phone to go over possible contributions that I can make. I would like to cover other topics but unfortunately right now the Obama issue is the only issue I have tackled for lack of time. Global poverty is my main issue. And unlike Obama, I do not silence my critics, so the turn is now yours.