What a liberal communist godless country! Isn't it a comfort that they will all be going to hell..?

Sigh.

hey, can someone find me a postable link of this clip, so i can embed this in my forum posts? you can't embed onegoodmove.org links (actually, you can't post them most times as the onegoodmove site forces a redirect.)

Norway is an extremely successful society, with a working capitalist system, a modern efficient welfare state and amazingly low levels of anti-social behavior. But it's strange that Michael Moore thinks that the low crime rate in Norway is a result of soft criminal justice system. It's much more sensible to think of is as the reason for or the cause of the soft penalties. When almost no one commits violent crime, the law is so well established that you don't need harsh penalties.

The vindictiveness of the American penal system is sometimes appalling, but we are a very criminal people. Criminality is widespread across the American population, from drug offenses to tax evasion and white collar crime to millions of violent crimes every year. We're not doing criminal justice correctly, but I don't think that there is a straightfowrad, short-term solution to American criminality. The challenge is to try to reduce crime as much as possible while protecting people's human rights, not to try to reduce crime to Norway levels

Guess what guys... I live in this Country. What Michael told you, is 98% truth. YES 98%..

The remaining 2% is: 1. Even with its massive finacing capability, the country educational rate is still number 33 PISA 06 US is nr 28

2. Norwegian Tech industry is going down, because the goverment is unwilling to invest, decrease tax, and research/invest in groundbreaking educational reforms.

3.Norway, have more "medical malpractice" per pers than most of other country.

4.To educate doctors, there is a pass or nonpass grade, ONLY

So.. Yes there is a down side of the upside. I think Norway can "still" do better!

When stupid hicks like Hannity bad-mouth European social democracies and insist that America is the greatest country on earth, it does our nation a great disservice. We need to observe other systems that seem to work better than our own and learn to adapt.

Nice job with this video, Norm.

Shocking, a prison that actually rehabilitates the inmates. The American system encourages criminals to continue to be criminals. What is probably good about Norway's system is that the prisoners actually leave a good society and go to a bad one while in America a lot of people prefer prison because it's the only place they can get food and health care.

I don't think Moore's piece there proves that Norway's system rehabilitates people. The people who committed murders (mostly crimes of passion, it seems), were not harded criminals who were living a long life of crime before entering prison and being "treated like human beings". They were, like many, many criminals everywhere, one-time violent offenders who were unlikely to re-offend if they were let free. When you have one of the lowest violent crime rates in the world, you can empty the prisons and still not see much of a bump in the crime rate. We have crime coming out our ears (relatively speaking, compared to other modern societies), so recidivism seems like a serious problem. But part of it is really just appearance--when you have millions of people in prison, and tens of millions of crimes, a lot of those crimes are going to be committed by former inmates. So we conclude that the problem is recidivism and letting free incorrigible convicts. In reality the phenomenon is created by the fact that many many Americans have been locked up and there is a lot of crime in general.

I think that rehabilitation has some demeaning aspects to it. Most criminals already have some kind of moral sensibility, which punishment can awaken. Others would regret their crime anyway (although admittedly still others are sociopaths or harded, violent people). But the idea that you can train people like you can train dogs by throwing them in an institution, seems demeaning to me. You can train and condition people, but that leaves unsatisfied their demand to be recognized as free individuals. I'm a retributivist in that I think that receiving a punishment which morally fits the crime is more like "being treated like a human being", than threats or rehab programs are.

When stupid hicks like Hannity bad-mouth European social democracies and insist that America is the greatest country on earth

It amazes me that people like you have so much venom and hatred towards anybody who dares to show any love or devotion to their country ... unless, of course, they're not from America. The ironic thing is that you'll immediately turn around and claim that you love America more than any of us because you're so willing to speak hatefully about it. Perhaps you could be rational and divorce his critique of some foreign policy from your own kneejerk, hateful reaction towards those of us who do love America.

Certainly it's useful to look to foreign countries for examples of differing systems. But direct 1:1 comparisons are impossible unless there is a foreign country which is exactly like America. And there isn't. Which, coincidentally, is why we're the greatest country on Earth.

And for all the crying about American journalists daring to claim that their land is the best, it's funny how so few in America know that Europe has been engaging an all-out media campaign against us for years now. Here's a very interesting video that documents the subject:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2GOHaXKv_hE

bblleeeechchhhhhh.

...nice footage from Frognerparken, though.

Certainly it's useful to look to foreign countries for examples of differing systems. But direct 1:1 comparisons are impossible unless there is a foreign country which is exactly like America. And there isn't. Which, coincidentally, is why we're the greatest country on Earth.

Um... so that entire cause and consequence thing - it's not really something you're all that keen on in America, then?

Someone earlier made the argument that because the US has to deal with extraordinary domestic conditions, and because it apparently deals with those conditions somewhat successfully (?), the US is therefore the greatest country in the world. This seems to me a rather silly argument. China has to deal with an overwelmingly larger population and with extraordinary condtions that arise from it. Does anybody really think China is the greatest country in the world? Greatness isn't exactly an objective measure. I love my children, therefore they are the greatest. It's a sentimental judgement that reflects personal attachment and preference. There are, however, standard that provide objective measures for civility, and standards of living that aren't entirely contingent on subjective appraisal. To me, it seems that Norway has a low crime rate because the general standards of living are very high. The low poverty rate and freedom of opportunities seem to be key. It's also important to remember that Norway didn't always have so little prisons and that there's a reason for its decline. One reason had to do with the way that certain methods of punishment played a role in creating more aggressive criminals and in maintaining criminal behaviour. The US also has more prisons because there is has a prison industry. By the way, my cat "Boogers" is the greatest cat in the world.

Which, coincidentally, is why we're the greatest country on Earth.

Tillerman, is that you?

Oh and by the way, thanks for the youtube clip of CBN (Christian Broadcasting Network). I needed a laugh.

Greatness isn't exactly an objective measure. I love my children, therefore they are the greatest. It's a sentimental judgement that reflects personal attachment and preference.

Exactly. And so is love. Does that mean love is 'stupid', or 'redneck' or 'hick' or 'neocon', or any of the other ridiculous epithets left-wingers apply to patriotism?

By the way, my cat "Boogers" is the greatest cat in the world.

Nah, my cat is the greatest in the world. See, we can both think that, and the world didn't spontaneously explode. In other news, when you go to a sporting event and buy one of those foam fingers that says "we're #1", this is not actually a contractual obligation. It's a rallying cry, something to stand for. It shows that you care.

It has been said by conservative pundits that the best way to piss off a liberal is to start talking positively about the US or show any sign of patriotism - wave a flag, sing the anthem - and I have seen that proven numerous times. You have to ask yourself why this is the case. Why does love for your country and respect for your fellow countrymen fill liberals with such anger?

The US also has more prisons because there is has a prison industry

Actually the US has more prisons because the US has more crime. As much as everyone would like to boil causation down to their pet political plank, what causes crime is actually a very complex issue.

This new approach of America-hatred - going around the world, getting a glib/superficial understanding of a nation and then cherry-picking only the favorable elements of their culture to deride the US - is pretty ridiculous when really examined. It's like cobbling a meal together from 100 different courses. Sure, the raspberries taste great on the chocolate mousse, but the raspberries from the mousse combined with the tartar sauce from the steak? Not that great. The point: if you only look at a country's strong points, and how it compares favorably to your home, you'll obviously always think your home is worse. It's called the "grass is greener" syndrome, and the only question that really needs to be answered is, if it's so great in Norway, why aren't you living there?

Oh and by the way, thanks for the youtube clip of CBN (Christian Broadcasting Network). I needed a laugh.

Thanks for the glib response to a factual and well-documented problem, which you dismiss solely because it's presented on a network with a religious affiliation. I needed confirmation of my beliefs about liberals.

Tell me - should the poor and starving refuse to eat food provided by the Salvation Army for the same reason? Or can you accept that sometimes help (and truth) might come from a source with whom you have a completely irrelevant and immaterial philosophical difference?

I swear to god I feel like I'm living more and more in a bad movie. If you tried to point any of this out on TV, any random idiot (conservatives I'm sure of, but liberals would probably do this too) would shout you down with the nationalistic bullshit about how we are the greatest country on Earth, and how somehow freedom of speech is so unique to us. Hey guys, it's not 1800... the world has changed. We suck ass at a lot of things. I just feel like there are such obvious solutions to so many problems but people debating on TV are about as intellectually honest as fucking advertisements. I don't understand why you can get far better discussions of issues on some free internet forums than you can on national TV where everyone is supposed to be educated. People just refuse to have an open mind and follow facts, they just push their stupid fucking agenda, truth be damned.

All of this and there's nothing I can do to change it, or even move it just a fucking millimeter. TV is just such a huge fucking joke. God damnit.

I swear, anytime they bring in 2 people to debate an issue THEY DON'T ACTUALLY DEBATE THE ISSUE.... FUCK they just talk about some random other shit that is totally fucking irrelevant. When Bill OReilly has people on to debate topics, he never (or at least I've never seen) actually debates the issue (ie the merits of having universal healthcare or the same thing on ANY ISSUE) he just picks some stupid shit to complain about. Usually it's something like 'one of your supporters had a sign that said something mean'. And then they fucking talk about that for the entire segment. And since both sides are fucking dishonest as hell, they will fucking dodge questions to no tomorrow and he will keep asking the fucking question. "Ok, so I understand you have a right to be out there protesting, but why do you have to bring personal attacks in to it?" "Well the real issue is how the other side did BLAHBLAH"

FUCK what is wrong with these people

Even if they somehow did debate an issue, people just fucking make stuff up and nobody even fucking cares. SOCIALIZED MEDICINE SUCKS WAAAAAAAH I CANT HEAR YOU STATISTICS WAAAAAAAAH, IM COVERING MY EARS.

Then you have fucking people like caligraph (who probably represents about 90%+ of Americans) who actually support this stupid bullshit of how we are the greatest fucking country on earth, and how it's apparently unpatriotic to criticize your country at all, because we're perfect and everything.

There is no real debate on anything. Nobody approaches issues with an open mind willing to look at statistics or moral or any type of arguments. It's just a huge fucking joke.

America blows I want to move.

Sorry for the rant... sigh. I hate people

Thanks for the glib response to a factual and well-documented problem

Well, I just returned from a two-week vacation in France. I was treated very well and I didn't notice any anti-Americanism on the news. In fact, when Americans were mentioned, it was in a rather flattering way. This CBS report was exagerating. And being critical about the current U.S. administration is not being "anti-American".

I was told many times that I had a cute accent and the French went out of their way to be very kind to me.

Eric, lol, yes I believe that Average Joe/T4t now has a new name.

Some Americans repeat over and over "We have the greatest country in the world". The rest of the world is sick and tired of hearing this. It's obnoxious.

I recommend reading George Orwell's Notes on Nationalism

CBS .. oops, that should have been CBN.

Yawn. AverageHick/Teabag/Callgirl I want the rest of my 5 mintues back. By the way welcome back JoAnn. I'm glad you're back so we can now get back to our usual rut of burning miniature American flags and drinking the blood of Christian babies. :)

Caligraph, aka T4T...

The real knee jerk reaction is that you jump whenever someone dares say that Amerikkka is not the most wonderfulest nation in the whole wide world. I love my country, Spain, but you better believe we are the first ones to speak up and critize when something can be done better. For that exact reason, because we want our country to genuinely be the best it can possible be. Not a soothing empty rallying chant.

As for CBN post, what a load of BS. A full-on media campaign against the US, you say? That is laughable, because so much more can be said inversely from the US. Remind me, what was every American tv-pundit and opinion writers say when Spain voted off Aznar's party and brought in Zapatero after the 3-11 bombings (and after 75% of the population=30 Million people marched on the streets to protest terrorism), I think the kindest comment was that we had caved in to the terrorist and were a bunch of wussies. Now, those responsible for our attack are dead or in prison, while those responsible for 9-11 have not even been charged (OBL!), the US legal systems resembles more each day a Taliban's wet dream with suspension of Habeas Corpus, secret prisons, extraordinary renditions, torture...

Really, the US would do itself a favor if for once, stopped looking at its own belly button and realized that other countries may have some possitive qualities you could learn from.

Sean Hannity: Michael Moore is a pathetic propagandist, he's not even any good at it...

It amazes me that people like you have so much venom and hatred towards anybody who dares to show any love or devotion to their country...

calligraph:

Sean Hannity is one of the most hateful venomous assholes on TV - spare us your paeans to his "love of country"... we didn't need any confirmation of our beliefs about conservatives.

The real knee jerk reaction is that you jump whenever someone dares say that Amerikkka is not the most wonderfulest nation in the whole wide world.

And the interesting thing is that although he hates us "America haters" he keeps coming back jumping the security hurdles with different aliases. It's almost like he's a masochist.

Thanks for the glib response to a factual and well-documented problem, which you dismiss solely because it's presented on a network with a religious affiliation.

Don't you know they have an "agenda"...you know...like them homosexuals? ;)

Don't you know they have an "agenda"...you know...like them homosexuals?

hee hee..

Or our agenda of hating America.

Thanks for the welcome back. One thing about Callgirl, he's good for a laugh.

if it's so great in Norway, why aren't you living there?

It's not that easy to move to a different country. The receptionist in the hotel that I was staying in was from Poland. One day she was sitting there crying because she had found out that she could no longer work in France and had to leave. Very sad.

One thing about Callgirl, he's good for a laugh.

What's great is the way you guys so quickly settle on a terrific monikers for him: teabagger, callgirl, ...

It's enough to drive a prissy wing-nut bonkers. :)

It's funny that to love your country you have to declare that it's "the greatest on earth." Who cares what position we're in? "We're No. 1, Hey!" (repeat, louder each time; forget that your team doesn't go to class/is on steroids/drinks more in one night than you do all month...).

You can love your country and still work to fix it just as you can love your cat and train it to poop in the litter box and not in your slippers.

Just as we can learn from our peers, our citizenry and administration could learn from the successes of others. Starting with education, yo, while we take care of those who are the least fortunate. 1 step at a time - even if there are a gajillion steps to take.

Psht - when I saw the opening of this clip, I thought the named country was going to be Sweden. Their health care and support for families is pretty sweeeeeet. Did anyone else hear the NPR story on European countries's support for maternity and parental leave? Some good info was in there.

The CBN video doesn't have any substance, only accusations. Starting off with 'Polls clearly show that Europeans have turned against America in increasing numbers.' Not Americans, but America. It could be because of George Bush or [George Bush's illegal invasion of] Iraq, but we must blame the horrible liberal media for poisoning those poor liberal Europeans' minds. 'One way media war...'

Also, the video has to make the point that hate us just because we are who we are, American. Never do they go into any reasons, just that they have all been listening to sinister propaganda fed to them by their media. The pro-US TV ad was put out by a conservative group, because conservatives like America, and they are not evil liberals.

These feelings have been around for a long time, but at the fringes, so now that they are mainstream, that means that everyone is an extremist. The 'long time' comment makes me think of religious conflicts, where the 'best' solution is to kill enough of the people who disagree with whatever dominant point of view is in effect.

"Fat children, fast food, death penalty, no culture, Guantanamo." While I contest the 'no culture' comment, nothing that man says that Europeans think is non-factual. Sure, blame the air and water.

Watch that video again, and see with an analytical eye the words that they chose to use.

Repeat a falsehood long enough and it appears to be truth. You can say that again.

USA Rankings

Adult Literacy Scale #9 #1 Sweden #2 Norway - OECD 
 Healthcare Quality Index #37 #1 France #2 Italy - WHO 2003


Student Reading Ability #12
 #1 Finland #2 South Korea - OECD PISA 2003


Student Problem Solving Ability #26
 #1 South Korea #2 Finland - OECD PISA 2003


Student Mathematics Ability #24
 #1 Hong Kong #2 Finland - OECD PISA 2003


Student Science Ability #19
 #1 Finland #2 Japan - OECD PISA 2003


Women's Rights Scale #17
 #1 Sweden #2 Norway - World Economic Forum Report


Life Expectancy #29
 #1 Japan #2 Hong Kong - UN Human Development Report 2005


Journalistic Press Freedom Index #53
 #1 Finland, Iceland, Ireland and the Netherlands tied - Reporters Without Borders 2006


Political Corruption Index #17
 #1 Iceland #2 Finland - Transparency International 2005


Quality of Life Survey #13
 #1 Ireland #2 Switzerland - Economist Magazine Environmental Sustainability Index #45
 #1 Finland #2 Norway - Yale University ESI 2005


Overall Currency Strength #3 #1 UK pound Sterling #2 Euro - FTSE 2006 Infant Mortality Rate #33
 #1 Iceland #2 Singapore - UN World Population Prospects report 2006
 (and this predated the collapse of the dollar)

Human Development Index #10
 #1 Norway #2 Iceland - UN Human Development Report 2005

The US is the only G-8 country that allows 47 million people (15.8% of the total population) to go without any form of health insurance.

Actually the US has more prisons because the US has more crime. As much as everyone would like to boil causation down to their pet political plank, what causes crime is actually a very complex issue.

You know what? You're right! It is a complex issue, and we've taken the initiative to fix this complex issue by taking simplistic measures to handling the problem: fill up the prisons. Because after all, it's easier to keep locking people up even if the crime rates are increasing than to actually get to the root causes of the problems.

PS: Here's some balanced news to help alleviate the tension.

PPS: Oh and you just gotta love how the CBN story started by saying, "...Europeans have been fed a steady diet of media distortions..." and then talking about how people bring up Gitmo a lot(02:29). LOL! It just doesn't get any better.

if it's so great in Norway, why aren't you living there?

Oh! I knew I've seen you from somewhere.

It amazes me that people like you have so much venom and hatred towards anybody who dares to show any love or devotion to their country ... unless, of course, they're not from America. The ironic thing is that you'll immediately turn around and claim that you love America more than any of us because you're so willing to speak hatefully about it.

Do you even read the comments others post here or do you immediately fly into a fit of apoplexy just thinking about Michael Moore? There wasn’t anything hateful in what I wrote except a bit of malice directed at a half-wit, proto-phalangist, know-nothing TV tool (Hannity). I’m a veteran of the U.S. military. What have you done to prove your allegiance?

it's funny how so few in America know that Europe has been engaging an all-out media campaign against us for years now.

What are you talking about? I see lots of anti-European rhetoric on American TV but I haven’t witnessed the opposite. I have never experienced a single episode of anything you could call anti-American in all of my travels. I watch television news from France and Spain almost daily and I have not seen this alleged America-bashing your video talks about. On the contrary, I have found that almost everyone, everywhere has a fairly high opinion of America and Americans, in spite of all of the Europe bashing being carried out by people of your ilk. This is just my own experience, which brings me to my next point.

I asked you back when your name was Teabagger where you went for your news. I guess this is your answer; CBN, the biggest piece of crap outside of Fox News. The video wasn’t interesting; it was a joke. You need to understand the difference between news and opinion-editorial. Find a real news source.

American is the greatest honest. I have been to quite a few countries and one this i have noticed, America is the only one that feels the need to chant/shout/mention that they are the greatest in the world!! Who cares.

Callgirl, the facts speak for themselves you are not the "greatest" country in the world as you rank terribly. As for no other country out there to compare the US to, yes you would compare the US to that country not the other way around, given most western countries are older than the US. The simple fact you are "uncomparable" does not make you the default "greatest country".

Also that CBN post, as someone who lives over here in the Europe, there is very little "american bashing". What there is, is unbiased objective observation of the actions of the US. Mainly because what you do effects us. When you remove human rights and create secret prisons, we speak out.

I personally look forward to a new president, hopefully the next one will start to undo the damage Bush has done.

Hey, Tim, I have a great followup question for you - what team ever rallied from behind by constantly shouting "We suck!"

The idea of patriotism isn't just about loving your country when it's up. It's about loving it when it's down, too. It boils down to cliche, because cliches are true. That's how they become cliches.

It's funny that to love your country you have to declare that it's "the greatest on earth."

The hilarious thing about this statement is how people like you repeat it, over and over, as if it's true. Yet the only time I ever hear or say anything patriotic is when we do something right, or in defense after some smartass liberal starts bagging on us. Tell me where you see a surfeit of people boosting the US anywhere right now. I'd love to go there. Get a few days away from the constant whinging and 'ironic commentary'.

You're creating a paper tiger to knock down. There is no grand mythical patriotism in this land, particularly not where any of us live. You aren't patriotic, and you want to make sure everybody hears about it. It's not about the country, it's about you.

What are you talking about? I see lots of anti-European rhetoric on American TV but I haven’t witnessed the opposite.

Undoubtedly because you are either not paying attention, and/or because the biased tend not to recognize bias. You're overly critical of your country - why would someone overly critical of your country set your radar off?

And if you're watching American cable 'foreign' news, guess what, you're watching news sanitized for your consumption. BBC America is nothing like the BBC.

I have found that almost everyone, everywhere has a fairly high opinion of America and Americans

This has been my contention on numerous occasions. Interestingly, many people here have been quick to chime in with anecdotes about how unpopular we are, about sewing Canadian flags on their backpacks, etc. In any case, that wasn't my argument. People vary - it's human nature. Their media is biased against us.

In spite of all of the Europe bashing being carried out by people of your ilk

Really? What 'European bashing' did I commit? Saying my country's better than his? America is better than Norway. Know why? Because I'm fucking American. I'm sure Norway is fine, I mean Knut Hamsun was from there. He was a great writer and a hell of a Nazi. And I bet the fish is always fresh. It's great for Mr. Norwegian Guy up there. But to me it's at least second. I'm sure he feels the same. And I don't even want to bomb him!

I guess this is your answer; CBN, the biggest piece of crap outside of Fox News.

Surely you can comprehend the effectiveness of a montage. It's the favorite method of Mr. Moore. The citations are certainly capable of being evaluated on their own merit.

Der Spiegel. Le Figaro. The BBC. Panorama (Germany). The Times Online UK. The list of examples goes on - even a nod from Tony Blair himself. Seriously, what am I thinking posting this? A Christian touched it! Thank God none of your choice sources of information are ... oh, wait.

A spirited discussion is great but how did Turrets Syndrome become the toast of the Left?

The best solution is to try and forgive Daddy and live in a more matriarchal society, which America is a long way from being with its awful, nasty cowboy firebrand manifest destiny heritage. We really should take it all down and put it back the way it was before the Colonies. What were we thinking?!!!

I'm stunned at how people fall for the concept that the government is here to give us things and it's all FREE. It's so seductive and a wonderful way for a guy like Hugo Chavez to become "benevolent" dictator in a motherland style milkmaid to the masses wet dream.

But, on the other hand, maybe things are great in Norway. I'm sure it's true. It's a small country, which is fairly homogenous in its profile. Guess what? That's NOT the US. So, Moore rides it for all it's worth with his smarmy intonated 'up yours' to middle America V.O.. I wish him well; I hope it makes him feel good. OK, whatever.

Meanwhile, go test the illegal immigration standards of Norway and report back. It could be interesting. I won't say America is better than anywhere else, because it's just a stupid premise for an ugly argument, but America is certainly unique in ways that I cherish. I'm just such the jingoist.

"America is better than Norway. Know why? Because I'm fucking American." What if you are a non-fucking american? If that is why you think american is better then you have some fucked up values.

As for the backing the team that sames "we suck" if you lose no biggie if you win that is more impressive.

"I mean Knut Hamsun was from there. He was a great writer and a hell of a Nazi." So you are saying that because Nazi came from Norway it is suddenly less than America? Do you know how many Americans went to Germany to answer the call? You have the KKK, one of the slowest to allowed blacks to serve.

Again as someone who lives outside of the US, i know that your media is heavily censored and biased. British news groups as not unbiased, as no news group can truly be, but they try to be fair. And lets be fair you guys get up to stupid stuff.

All this CBN crap about anti-americanism in Europe is total bull. It's not anti-americanism but anti-Bushism and anti-Republicanism - which to CBN, of course, is the same thing, but that's another topic.

Only eight years ago, when a certain B. Clinton was president, Europeans registered constantly high esteem for the US. Sure, they tend to criticize the death penalty, the jingoism, the evangelicalism, the huge portions at McDonald's.

But most Europeans like Americans as a people. They love to travel through this country. They dream about Route 66 and about the nights in New York and about the beaches of Miami and St.Barbara. And Hollywood movies top the charts. They also admire America's, yes, racial tolerance (higher than in most European countries, believe it or not), almost non-existant antisemitism and the genuine and naive patriotism here. Europeans haven't forgotten Vietnam or Chile or Grenada. But they also remember WWII and the Marshall plan.

So, to cut things short: All it takes for the US is to elect another prez. And to pull out of Iraq. And to sign the Kyoto protocol. It's that simple, really. Clinton was and still is hugely popular over there. Bush is despised and ridiculed. But I asure you: A president Obama or Edwards or even someone as lackluster as Hillary - and the mood will turn In. An. Instant.

CBN hasn't got a clue.

Both Norwegians and Americans are arrogant, but the problem is that Americans are also quite ignorant.

Instead of parading around with this self-proclaimed entitlement ("the world greatest country", "global problem fixers"), realize that America got as many problems as any other country (you might even beat Russia...).

Norway is far from perfect, but at least we learn from our mistakes. We got alot of problems in healthcare, law and ESPECIALLY education, contrary to what Moore says.

"But most Europeans like Americans as a people. They love to travel through this country. They dream about Route 66 and about the nights in New York and about the beaches of Miami and St.Barbara. And Hollywood movies top the charts. [...]"

This is a tough one. In a sense you're completely right, but when you think about how the American culture has been imposed onto countries worldwide, the rest of the world's "love" for Coke, the entertainment business, cars, TV and so on is more a curse than anything else. We might love you for it, but the world would be a better place without it.

(sorry if this post turns up multiple times, I got an error the first time I treid to post)

Hey, Tim, I have a great followup question for you - what team ever rallied from behind by constantly shouting "We suck!"

What team ever rallied from behind by saying "We're ahead!" when they're behind? What team ever rebuilt with the same incompetent coach who mismanaged them into mediocrity? And what team ever paid attention to the idiot cheerleaders when the talented players are dispirited. Frenchfries hit the nail on the head - your CBN clip is utter horseshit. Opinions about the United States have plummeted virtually everywhere - not just Europe - since Bush's protofascist government took office.

It’s both creepy and comical that hicks like Call-boy want to believe that Europeans hate Americans. CBN isn’t Christian and it isn’t news; it’s a propaganda tool used to scare American Christians into believing that the Republican party is working on their behalf.. Someone tells someone to do a story on how much Europeans hate Americans so they manufacture a weak-as-hell expose. Imagine how easy it would be for a French network to do a story about how much Americans hate the French.

The citations are certainly capable of being evaluated on their own merit.

And all of the citations were mainly vague or stupid. “Oh my god, British author Margaret What’s-her-face has anti-American feelings? Run for your lives!” A bunch of German school kids think that Abu Gharib was disgraceful. So do I and so should any decent human being. They said that if you repeat a distortion enough times it becomes true. This is bullshit but they never said what the distortions are. Abu Gharib is not a distortion, the disastrous outcome to the war in Iraq is not a distortion, Blackwater's crimes are not a distortion.

I suggest you subscribe to The New Yorker, The Atlantic, Harper’s, and the NYT, for starters. Turn off the TV and especially the trash you are poisoning yourself with on CBN and Fox. Or you can just be a stupid hick for the rest of your life.

I hope that Michael Moore is getting through to Americans that we could be doing things a lot better for everyone in this country. He is a great American.

Type in "America is the greatest country in the world" on Google and you get 12,700 results.

calligraph: Really? What 'European bashing' did I commit? Saying my country's better than his? America is better than Norway. Know why? Because I'm fucking American. I'm sure Norway is fine, I mean Knut Hamsun was from there. He was a great writer and a hell of a Nazi. And I bet the fish is always fresh. It's great for Mr. Norwegian Guy up there. But to me it's at least second. I'm sure he feels the same. And I don't even want to bomb him!

You know, I have to admit I like statements like these a lot. The sarcasm, the overt blanket disdain and otherwise indifference for another country's history and culture - I use it as a driver myself very often.

But. I do it to my own country. I deride people who do not know their own history. Who think the nazi- party never was popular in Norway before and during the war. To people who are unable to pick up "Sult"(english: Hunger) by Hamsun because he stood on principle rather than cave in when membership in the nazi- party became illegal.

To people who do not remember how nurses sent to the east- front, to care for soliders of various nationalities fighting with the germans against Russia, were sentenced for high treason. In the same courts that excused our local "terrorists" fighting against the nazis, even though they killed their countrymen, civillians and soliders.

To people who do not know how the military was left defenseless and unprepared due to conscious decisions by the labour government before the war.

Who glorify how the war was won through nationalism and pride alone. And so on.

But I do not think it's appropriate to spend time gloating over other countries' lack of Norwegianness (even if I of course know they all suck donkeyballs).

Because to do so would be to arrogantly assume that I can judge another country and it's people on the basis of a few anecdotes, and seriously expect to have a full picture. And the fact of the matter is that by not doing this, by instead respecting my own history and that of other countries - I can establish certain limits on what ways another country should be able to influence my own, and vice versa.

So do understand that when most, the vast majority, of foreigners criticise the US, it is usually based on universal things like the justice system, conduct when it comes to foreign policy, trade- agreements, and so on. Because these are the things that other countries have similar experience in. These are not solely internal issues.

The rest of us might have a problem with loud, inconsiderate american stereotypes, of course - but that's not a criticism of the nation as a whole, or it's conduct.

Still, it's not possible to escape from the fact that many americans are of the opinion that they, through the power of their bestness, should dictate how the world should work.

And of course, criticising that for being arrogant and myopic, is being anti- american. It's difficult to get past that, when criticism of abhorrent behaviour on the international level is met with baffled, petulant anger. As one republican I know said - it's obscene how I cannot trust the US to be an honest broker in the middle east: it was just selfishness that prevented me from seeing the truth about how the US knew best.

Because - it is the case that foreign policy is to a certain extent a product of national politics and national interests. So at one point, the national character will be involved. This is the case for other countries as well, of course, no matter how much they proclaim it is not.

But it is particularly obvious when people cut the legs off any usual standard of conduct, like this latest US administration has. To - unfortunately - a wide yawn, or even worse, a loud cheer, from the general population.

And I don't know what you would like criticism of that to sound like..? We all know it's got something to do with the national character, with how distant the "ruling class" and the beltway is from the rest of the people. The exclusivity of foreign affairs, the unaccountable and strong executive, etc.

Still, it wouldn't suprise me if criticism, even if it was constructive, on that point - wouldn't be welcomed. No matter how unofficial it was, and how cushioned in concern it would appear to be.

And I have to admit - I worry that the US just isn't capable of really changing for the better on these things. And will, as usual, elect to ignore all the issues in favour of yet another uncritically nationalistic narrative. When important issues are, through the usual political process, reduced to a rallying cry that glosses over all possible subtlety and critical thought.

(btw, ...did I mention the nazis? I think I mentioned the nazis.)

Calligraph, are you Tillerman or not?

I agree with Styx, I am looking forward to a new president. I love my country, but I believe there a lot of changes that need to happen. The fact that so many people have to question America's greatness (or non-greatness) troubles me. Yes, there are a lot of people here that overly boast their love for America and look down on other countries, but we could learn a lot from other countires if the people in charge would fully acknowledge our problems.

Calligraph, are you Tillerman or not?

Honestly. What do you think he's going to say!

I may be wrong, but I don't remember posting links as being part of Tillerman's MO.

It’s both creepy and comical that hicks like Call-boy want to believe that Europeans hate Americans. CBN isn’t Christian and it isn’t news; it’s a propaganda tool used to scare American Christians into believing that the Republican party is working on their behalf.. Someone tells someone to do a story on how much Europeans hate Americans so they manufacture a weak-as-hell expose. Imagine how easy it would be for a French network to do a story about how much Americans hate the French.

Perhaps calligraph/T4T has been to Europe and learned for himself how much Europeans hate Americans, so the CBN propaganda clip matched his experience. He just failed to recognize that it was just him they couldn't stand.

He just failed to recognize that it was just him they couldn't stand.

Precisely. Amen,.

Calligraph, are you Tillerman or not?

Oh, come on. A little smart ass such as yourself couldn't be that fucking naive.

What's wrong with asking Jo Ann? A lot of you guys thought Tillerman was me a while back. So yeah, I guess I am that fucking naive. Welcome back!

A great film about America and old Europe is Nick Park's "Chicken Run". The American (voiced perfectly by Mel Gibson) has no solidarity with other chickens, and thinks his country is the greatest ("a little place I call the land of the free, the home of the brave"..."Scotland?!?"... "No! America!"). But all the oppressed "English chicks" want what he has (the gift of flight)--"teach us to fly!". Problem is, he can't really fly, it's sort of a con. And yet his indominable American enthusiasm is good for something, if not quite as good as actual flight. The myth is better than the reality, but the reality isn't all too bad.

There are a lot of things that other countries have figured out, which we haven't yet. In standard-of-living terms, Finland and Norway are better. But there is a lot about "Americanism" that is pretty good, and would possibly be lost if we started aping Norway in everything. Michael Moore told Oprah that the solution to the health care problem is getting over our "every man for himself" mentality. I like that idea in general, but it's a very tall order, a questionable project. Why not characterize universal health care as an extension of liberty, a boon to American businesses groaning under the weight of health care costs, or an act of justice for all? There is something about Moore's argument in which it seems he doesn't just want America to adopt certain policies, but he wants it to be radically different from the country that it is. I don't think that that's possible or good.

A spirited discussion is great but how did Turrets Syndrome become the toast of the Left?

The best solution is to try and forgive Daddy and live in a more matriarchal society, which America is a long way from being with its awful, nasty cowboy firebrand manifest destiny heritage. We really should take it all down and put it back the way it was before the Colonies. What were we thinking?!!!

I'm stunned at how people fall for the concept that the government is here to give us things and it's all FREE. It's so seductive and a wonderful way for a guy like Hugo Chavez to become "benevolent" dictator in a motherland style milkmaid to the masses wet dream.

But, on the other hand, maybe things are great in Norway. I'm sure it's true. It's a small country, which is fairly homogenous in its profile. Guess what? That's NOT the US. So, Moore rides it for all it's worth with his smarmy intonated 'up yours' to middle America V.O.. I wish him well; I hope it makes him feel good. OK, whatever.

Meanwhile, go test the illegal immigration standards of Norway and report back. It could be interesting. I won't say America is better than anywhere else, because it's just a stupid premise for an ugly argument, but America is certainly unique in ways that I cherish.

ps. how do know that the person linking the CBN vid. didn't just have the most sublime sense of humor and nobody recognizes it?

@dende blogger: You know - americans don't have a monopoly on ridiculous mythical solutions.

And no, arguing that "right to life" and how health- care is an extension of liberty, is just more of the same subversive idiocy, and will not work. And even if it did at first, how do you imagine people can be tricked into making conscious and well- informed decisions as a result? Magic? Because of belief in the allmighty power of the government to somehow produce excellent solutions on your behalf?

Of course - it's quite possible to make yourselves stupid enough to buy a pitch like that, without having any real grasp of what you're agitating for.

Which is when we get room to play things like "bring it on!", and "nation- building", supported from left to right - only to be rudely interrupted by an unfortunate war that somehow cannot be won, and therefore, years into it, becomes a political liability (instead of an asset).

But it's too late to do anything about what actually happened, yeah? To stop the way sheer mythology controls policy- decisions on everything from social security to wars and torture?

I don’t think that Moore wants America to be radically different; he just wants not to lose sight of how we were once a more egalitarian society. Now we are a nation of elitists with absurd notions about consumption wherein every single consumer item is made in luxury varieties intended to separate individuals based on their incomes. This movement is paralleled by the constant drumbeat against government.

I suggest you read John Ralston Saul to better understand these malicious developments of the past 25 year summarized here.

I'm stunned at how people fall for the concept that the government is here to give us things and it's all FREE. It's so seductive and a wonderful way for a guy like Hugo Chavez to become "benevolent" dictator in a motherland style milkmaid to the masses wet dream.

First of all, only a fool would say that services carried out by the government are free. Of course we pay for them. It amuses me that the Right is fond of saying that you can’t fix a problem by throwing money at it then they turn around and bury the defense industry in our tax dollars with zero accountability. You certainly can’t fix a problem by ignoring it. America was well on the way to becoming the most egalitarian, prosperous, and fair-minded nation on earth until the anti-government folks, beginning with Reagan, began dismantling the safety nets we fought most of the 20th century to construct.

As far as Chavez, he’s certainly a bit of a kook but if ever a region in the world needed a heavy dose of socialism, it’s Latin America. What is so horrible about Chavez trying to spread around the wealth Venezuela generates from petroleum?

American culture has been imposed onto countries worldwide, the rest of the world's "love" for Coke, the entertainment business, cars, TV and so on is more a curse than anything else.

I hate it when people say this. Most Europeans seem to have this view, except for the ones who realize the people are doing this of their own free will. No one is forcing your countrymen to eat at Mc Donald's.

I've seen it here in Austria. All of a sudden people spontaneously started celebrating Halloween and now even Santa Claus is popular! What's wrong with their Christkind?! I don't know.

What I really want to know is why Europeans tend to imitate the worst things American?

"What is so horrible about Chavez trying to spread around the wealth Venezuela generates from petroleum?"

That oil money gives literal meaning to "greasing the wheels" with an eye on consolidation of power. Chavez may soon be empowered to run Venezuela for the rest of his life. Is that model of a Patriarchal egomaniac really some kind of hopeful thing in the eyes of Progressives? Anyway, that'll be the "heavy dose" you're hoping for. As for me, I'm just not a big fan of dictatorships. Call me crazy.

What I really want to know is why Europeans tend to imitate the worst things American?

;) Just like Bollywood. It's affection for the idea, the mythical freedom some associate with the US, and probably always will. Same thing as most americans do, I guess (except some of them maybe should know better, since they actually live there..).

But I mean - if you live in a suburbs somewhere in the US, have money, private guards and a palace of a house and so on - then you don't have any worries (except for poor people shooting you, and terrorists). So it's no wonder you get a lot of skewed views sometimes. What suprises me, though, is the way it's almost illegal to point out that not everyone can have that "reality". That.. doesn't make sense to me. It's as if admitting there are people stuck in virtual slavery, or that some people just didn't work their way up with their two empty hands - is something similar to treason..

Same goes for the health- insurance stick. "It's a choice"? I mean, really, how moronic do you have to be to say something like that? We all know the health- risks from having an unhealthy population, and the problems you get when people avoid going to the doctor until they keel over. So how is it that the Congress (left and right) subsidises a system that eventually becomes so corrupt and dysfunctional that it just doesn't bear saving?

You know, it's tempting to draw some parallels between the politics here and the politics controlling foreign policy, and point out how it seems there is some sort of balance between myths and political games that always ends up controlling what is actually done. And that facts turn up, at best, afterwards, in order to justify which side of the slider you ended up choosing.

What I really want to know is why Europeans tend to imitate the worst things American?

Believe it or not: Because some American things are just good. Coke IS good (if too sweet). Starbucks IS good coffee (could be cheaper, but at least you get a lot of it). McDonald's - well, let's not stretch the point.. Burgerking is better. But a diet with lots of sugar, carbohydrate and meat is universally attractive, that's a biological fact. Nobody has ever been whipped into a McDonald's.

But apart from (debatable) culinary accomplishments there are some more objective cultural ones: Hollywood makes some of the best movies in the world - no, please don't kill me..! It makes loads and loads of crap, too, of course. But even blockbuster flicks like, say, Transformers or Pirates of the Carribean are unmatched in production value and just general entertainment value. Hollywood cartoons are really good if you've seen some German or French ones, believe me. And so on.

And when it comes to TV series: They are not only good entertainment. From House to Galactica, from Six Feet Under to Dexter, from 30Rock to Lost - they are simply GOOD. Believe me: Smart Europeans have stopped watching TV - and buy TV series DVDs instead.

Again, it's the advantage of being able to produce on such a large scale, of course. But I hate the notion that these movies, hamburgers, series, jeans and sodas are somehow shoved down the world's throats. People are opting for them. Finland makes better cell phones, Germany makes better cars, the UK makes better comedies - and that's when the US can shove as much as they want.

By the way, I live over there, I know what I'm talking about.

Chavez may soon be empowered to run Venezuela for the rest of his life.

Kind of like the right-wing parties that have ruled all of Latin America for most of history? If you have ever traveled there you would know that the “trickle down” theory doesn’t work. Say what you want about Chavez but he has already done more for Venezuela’s poor than the people you would choose to run things there. Show me a right-wing Latin American government that has worked for all of its citizens before you criticize Chavez, or is your idea of democracy when 1% of the population controls 80% of the wealth?

USA Recidivism:

Of the 272,111 persons released from prisons in 15 States in 1994, an estimated 67.5% were rearrested for a felony or serious misdemeanor within 3 years, 46.9% were reconvicted, and 25.4% resentenced to prison for a new crime. The 272,111 offenders discharged in 1994 accounted for nearly 4,877,000 arrest charges over their recorded careers. Within 3 years of release, 2.5% of released rapists were rearrested for another rape, and 1.2% of those who had served time for homicide were arrested for a new homicide. Sex offenders were less likely than non-sex offenders to be rearrested for any offense –– 43 percent of sex offenders versus 68 percent of non-sex offenders. Sex offenders were about four times more likely than non-sex offenders to be arrested for another sex crime after their discharge from prison –– 5.3 percent of sex offenders versus 1.3 percent of non-sex offenders.

In 2004, Recidivism rate of norway total (arrested) was 43.4% over a 5 year period, 23.3% of which was either economic crimes or traffic crimes. The recidivism of criminals in US (arrested) was 67.5% over a 3 year period.

The numbers are hard to compare because of the different length of time, and the US is very vague on it's statistics that I found. The US stats also only study 15 states, which could have been selected carefully to skew the numbers. Interesting, but I thought it was important to bring into the discussion

One more thing... Percentagewise, US has 2.3% of it's total population incarcerated. That's 7 Million americans in jail. Norway, is .062% incarcerated, or 3,100 people.

Syngas said:

What's wrong with asking Jo Ann? A lot of you guys thought Tillerman was me a while back. So yeah, I guess I am that fucking naive. Welcome back!

Nothing wrong with asking, of course. I never thought that you were Tillerman. I could see that while "Syngas" has a sense of humor, "Average Joe/Tillerman/CallGirl does not.

And if you're astute, which I think that you are, it is perfectly clear vis-à-vis the writing style and mentality that our banned friend has returned to grace us with his profound analysis of current events.

Thanks for the welcome back. ;)

One more thing... Percentagewise, US has 2.3% of it's total population incarcerated. That's 7 Million americans in jail. Norway, is .062% incarcerated, or 3,100 people.

Well, of course, as others have pointed out, the U.S. consists of fifty states and could never be compared to a small country. The difficulty is how to apply certain concepts on a small scale and translate them to a large, diversified scale?

"Kind of like the right-wing parties that have ruled all of Latin America for most of history?"

Point taken but making that kind of argument, while falling into the tradition of pitting right against left with all the attendant point leveling, doesn't really address the issue which is corruption. Bouncing from extremes keeps the cycle going.

It's funny that to love your country you have to declare that it's "the greatest on earth."

"The hilarious thing about this statement is how people like you repeat it, over and over, as if it's true. Yet the only time I ever hear or say anything patriotic is when we do something right, or in defense after some smartass liberal starts bagging on us. Tell me where you see a surfeit of people boosting the US anywhere right now. I'd love to go there. Get a few days away from the constant whinging and 'ironic commentary'.

You're creating a paper tiger to knock down. There is no grand mythical patriotism in this land, particularly not where any of us live. You aren't patriotic, and you want to make sure everybody hears about it. It's not about the country, it's about you."

My paper tiger is yawning, and is ready to cover and consume your rock. Sorry, you ain't no scissors.

My comment has to do with the general tone that many - such as yourself - think that to love our country we have to declare that it's the greatest.

There are great things about this country: a large percentage of us eat at least 1 meal a day (way better than refugee status), we still manage to have some green space for outdoor living, we have a voice in government (sadly, the percentage of those who take advantage of that voice is pathetically near 50%).

There are also problems. Perhaps a look-see at those countries with less of the same problems could be instructional.

Just as with a winning team that you would cheer, if the leader/coach/government doesn't seriously consider the pitfalls of the organization, the days of being a winning team are numbered. The Bush administration will be leaving behind a country with more drug abuse, more national debt (and more and more), wider gaps between the lower and middle class as well as the middle and upper class, fruitless military destruction than when it came to power. Science? fuggedaboudit! I speak to the father every night. Gawd, I'm so sorry that anyone bothers to bring up these issues. Perhaps if we just sweep them under the rug, they'll go away. Bill O'Relliy's a big patriot (just ask him) and he can come up with facts that noone else has access to, so he can always prove the Bush admin is right and the tree-huggers are way out there. Hip hip hooray!

To paraphrase George Bernard Shaw:

"Patriotism is a pernicious, psychopathic form of idiocy ... it is the conviction that your country is superior to all others because you were born in it."

"Well, of course, as others have pointed out, the U.S. consists of fifty states and could never be compared to a small country. The difficulty is how to apply certain concepts on a small scale and translate them to a large, diversified scale?"

It may be difficult, but not in this case. Since Magnolia cited percentages, I'm not sure what your point is. Doesn't it mean something that a far greater percentage of Americans are in prison than in any other developed democracy (and even more than dictatorships like China)?

The diversity of America is often cited by my students when I ask them why there are so many people in American prisons. But why does diversity cause more crime, or more incarcerations? I don't see the argument. Of course for some students it's coded language for race. Like Trent Lott said, we wouldn't have "all these problems" if we had only stuck with segregation. But I'm puzzled as to why you think we can't compare a diverse country with a non-diverse country when it comes to crime statistics. If it's a relevant difference, it must be because we have some good reasons to believe that diversity has some effect on crime. The statisitics clearly show that we're more likely to committ crimes and more likely to be locked up.

Dende, You have taken off in an entirely different direction of that which I was thinking about.

The point I was making was that it is easier to pass laws and implement plans in a small country where the majority of the people are more likely to agree. We are such a large country composed of different states with differing values and this results in a lot of complications and leaves us being a rather divided country. If we are to solve our crime problem here, it's not going to be as simple as looking to another small country. We would have to determine how to apply what they did and translate it to the Untied States.

JoAnn. First, hi again. :)

Second - What you're saying is true, in the means of what Norway once was like. Etnically very similiar and with a very distinct class system, so it was easy for the working class to join together. But Norway and any other of the Scandinavian countries of today are, I would say, very diverse, with a number of different ethnicities and class belongings. I don't know what my point was exactly, just wantedto give you some facts.

Hi Pix!

Yes, thank you. I'll chew on what you said and allow it to sink in for awhile.

The point I was making was that it is easier to pass laws and implement plans in a small country where the majority of the people are more likely to agree.

Actually, what happens is that everyone thinks their opinion matters more than everyone elses. So it's typically more difficult to push through measures in the parliament (whether everyone thinks it's a good idea or not).

..Question: why is it that people seem to think a more homogeneous population causes less friction? God knows I despair over how docile people are sometimes - but you know.. you don't magically achieve calm and quiet from just closing your eyes and hoping for the best.

Fleinn,

I will give just one example. In France, most people are pro choice and therefore this is not an issue which ia discussed over and over during the elections, which results in more important issues being discussed.

Overall, most European countries are more progressive. The U.S. is divided between the European-style progressives and the conservative/fundamentalistreligious types.

Pix: When I speak of diversity, I'm not speaking of cultural diversity, so much as politically diverse.

I realize that what I said is somehow automatically interpreted to mean that I'm discussing different ethnicities. But I don't see the world that way. My grandmother is Tewa, my grandfather is hispanic, and my other side of the family is more anglo, and I suppose that growing up with different cultures has resulted in understanding that one's ethnicity is not an indication of one's political views.

JoAnn: I see your point about the size of our country and the diverse political views, but our policy of lock em up without any rehabilitation certainly is a factor in why our prison population is so high.

One thing that I wish there were more studies on is the recidivisim rate of certain types of crimes, both with and without rehabilitation. Why, as one of the world powers we don't know more about crime, is itself a question.

Yes, I agree with you Magnolia. And we have about 500,000 people incarcerated for drug-related charges and mandatory minimum sentences compounds the problem.

@JoAnn: I suppose you're right. ..Still, our last christian- democratic government had a very serious suggestion on changing the abortion law, for example - but they couldn't get it through parliament. They did try, through a sneaky change of the constitution, but they failed.

So in a sense, you're right. It is the case that some of these issues are not going to change, so it gives us some breathing room. We can trust that there will be no radical change, so it's possible to field issues without this necessarily creating a constitutional crisis.

But it was the same with their view on how alcohol should only be sold on the weekdays, or with the scrap over the headscarves, or gay adoption, or the role of the state church: the important thing is that the rule of law and representative government is not going to be quickly overturned by some zealots, and so making government a tool for enforcing a moral ideal on what people should wear, how people should act, and so on.

And that's one of the things we will keep, no matter how much we'll disagree on certain things. But.. it's still crucial that these issues are debated, which they are, and must be. Even, or maybe specially, if it's about the foundation of what government is and should be. For example, it's what allowed us to have a christian and a priest as a prime minister, without this making anyone worry that we were going to wake up one day and find ourselves with a theocracy.

..And to me, that's the key here. To consciously confront these issues, and make sure the process results in something that can be understood and dealt with.

..I just mean to say that this is not the easy way - and we cannot chose it, even with the best of intentions. Or we will lose something irreplaceable.

...

I mean - I have had a front- row seat to what's going on in the US for at least some time, and I understand the frustration some have. It is horrendous and disenchanting, no doubt about that. But it's still a worry that fanaticism and compartmentalised beliefs exist so easily on all sides. And that there are issues that will not be discussed - not because they are easily decided and agreed upon, but because they're off limits. Or deliberately forced into popular, but not very descriptive narratives. Or in the worst case, left up to the leader to decide without any real restraints.

And this happens on both sides. Sometimes by design, but often because it's necessary - the process just doesn't allow the issues to be dealt with differently.

Take the opposition to the Iraq war, for example. I've had people confess to me that they chose an approach they thought was functional, and what had a possibility of gaining majority support. That was the only concern. A catchy narrative and a set of talking points. What the substance of the arguments were, now that might not be so easy to put the finger on after a while. And so the results were as they were - with narratives ending up being pitted against each other, without any real discussion hiding behind them.

And you just can't blame that on fundamentalists on the one side. It's too easy.

Ah, Fleinn, about the war in Iraq and opposition to it and the discussion surrounding it. Discussing that is a whole new ballgame. I can say, though, that there was a fair amount of detailed discussion. It's just that none of it was to be found on the main-stream media. However, The New York Review of Books and Harpers Magazine had some very good articles which countered what was being said by the war supporters.

Phil Donahue had a good show which voiced opposition, but his show was canceled.

Did you ever read what Ruhttp://www.antiwar.com/orig/feingold1.htmlss Feingold had to say?

Oops... that should have been, "Did you ever read what Russ Feingold had to say?"

http://www.antiwar.com/orig/feingold1.html

Yeah.. I did. But notice how he doesn't dispute that the US should have a huge presemce in the area - that's not included in the debate. In fact, he goes out of his way to make sure no one will accuse him of being soft on terrorism.

Here's another example (Kenneth Roth of HRW): http://hrw.org/wr2k4/3.htm

And that's over a year into the mess.

I don't mean to categorically dismiss all opposition to the war as just being a mirror- image of the pro- war side. Or that there are no good arguments from the opposition when it comes to social security, or health- insurance, and so on.

But you have to admit - it's bloody easy for people to go "they're mad, and therefore we are right, no matter what we actually say"? And then insist that "probably better than the other guy, who is a moron" is a good platform to be elected on?

Or optionally go out of their way to not be the "shrill" extremists, and blunt their conclusions to fit with whatever it is that's currently accepted as wise&responsible (..observe Feingold above. Who, of course, still is one of the few with any amount of integrity left in Congress..).

See, the sad truth is that what for example Byrd harped on before the war started - why the urgency, about the reasons, about the constitutional issue, about how the war could be declared, the way the Bush- administration pined to go to war on the flimsiest of actionable intelligence - that just wasn't popular. People just didn't want to hear it, and accepted as necessary that these views were not heard.

And the opposition, by not mounting an actual defence, offered invaluable assistance for that to happen.

And I mean - what's proudly american about any of that? I thought americans respected and at least voted /more/ for people who had real opinions about actual issues, instead of being wishy- washy populists.

Fleinn,

All I can do is agree with what you said. Because we are such a divided country with such a large percentage of the population holding very conservative views, the left has to pander to the right somewhat in order to win elections for senator or president.

Anyone who voices an opinion which would be considered moderate in European countries, risks being labeled a latté-drinking, Prius-driving, tree-hugging hippie extremist here in the U.S.

In Europe, you just don't have such a large contingent of opinions to the far right. And that was the point that I was making from the very beginning, i.e. that we have more divergent political views in the U.S. You zeroed in on my mention of fundamentalists, but ignored my mention of conservatives.

Oh. No, no, no, no. Don't even try it. What you have is a compartmentalised set of issues that are allowed to be discussed in a particular way. And within that context, you celebrate the "diversity", as well as "freedom" which is quickly ending up being in name only.

Maybe the "thunderdome" that everyone sees is a cover for more complex underlying issues. It could well be that this is what's happening. It usually is. It's even usually the case that these issues fester because of the acrimonious character of the discussion that would take place otherwise.

But to claim that the US has more of these complex underlying issues than other countries, and that this is the reason they are so difficult to address - I don't buy it.

I think that the actual problem is that the right just is better at playing the game of making the political process into a useless shouting match. Obviously, they are. They respect authority, they can be perfectly happy with having flatly contradictory views, and they are able to change them on the spot if the leader says so.

But you can't fight that? The 20% who allegedly are so bad they cannot be reasoned with, are just too strong?

I just don't buy it. In fact, I think a suprisingly large amount of people just don't want to fight them too hard. I think they admire that kind of uncompromising certainty, and the way they proclaim they are making history every time they take a shit. Not to mention the way "unity" stands as the great last bastion against the world's destruction (allegedly).

And I think thoughts like that are revered to such an extent that the opposition is easily shouted down, with even the most ridiculously childish attacks - even when it's obvious that the arguments do not make sense. Such as to promote and defend democracy with secret courts, indefinite imprisonment and torture.

I heard the same before the 2000 elections, you know, just not about this kind of critical issues. Pro- abortion people voting for Bush because he was a paternal figure that radiated certainty and security, for example.

But - you cannot overcome that, or do better? And are telling me that this is how far as it's possible to go - for the US of A?

...

You know - to quote Doctor Who: then there's only one option left - the option of genocide. ;)

Fleinn,

I'm not bragging about the diversity. I'm just stating the fact that the conservative views are more powerful in the U.S. And 20%? Oh, no. About half of the population is very conservative. There are very few progressives in this country.

You are quick to decide what it is that you think I"m saying.

But - you cannot overcome that, or do better?

Actually, I have very little hope for much change. I am very disappointed in the presidential candidates. The only one who I kind of had hope for was Kucinich, but he has very little support. And then he suggested that he might have Ron Paul as a running mate.

I think it's hopeless really.

I do think that attempting to communicate on a blog is too difficult. I bring up diversity and automatically some people think I'm talking about racial diversity. And then you think I'm all proud about this and immediately get defensive. It's frustrating to attempt to have a rational discussion on line as so many people have so many pre-conceived notions about what they think that they understand about other people.

sigh..

Sorry about that.

I think I understand what you were saying now - I say conservative, in the sense of republicans and the right- wing in the US at the moment. And you say conservative, as opposed to progressive and liberal in terms of social responsibility, and so on, in the US?

And, then you're completely right that the US is a very conservative society, compared to what is perfectly main- stream for instance here.

But that is not the reason some of the issues can't be dealt with. True, most conservatives have some sort of mental disorder - but the vast majority are engaged in a battle over what the shape the debate should be like. How the issues are brought up. What questions the politicians should answer, etc. How many seconds the TV ads should be.

And that's the shape people actively participate in at the moment - and have for some time.

But, you know, I don't think the vast majority of the population, conservative or not, cannot be engaged in real debate, if that was an option, and enough people were willing to engage themselves just a little bit on the actual issues.

I mean, there are explanations for why it's difficult to get real suggestions on healthcare up for debate with the democrats. Or have a serious discussion about immigration with the republicans - such as that the elites cannot afford to accept issues like that into the "public square", since there's just one solution that can ultimately be acceptable - the pro- business one.

But.. I just refuse to believe the lot of you are not capable of doing something about the form of the debate that enables all of this.

What you say, Fleinn, sounds fine. How, exactly, would you implement your excellent ideas?

What I believe, I guess, is that there's a lot of honest effort being lost from people engaging themselves willingly in campaigns that they themselves perceive to be somewhat like a slightly more serious consumer brand competition. With blind- tests, with telephone campaigns, and so on.

And I think people shouldn't accept it. That this is how the country should be run. And spend their effort on promoting issues instead. But that needs some more nuanced thinking, and willingness to see that there are more involved than just the standard stick.

I mean, I've seen it first hand - how campaigners believe that they haven't got a clue about what sort of voodoo is planned at the campaign- quarters, or by the "intelligent people" who "know what they're talking about", and that the general population is stupid - so their only task is to mindlessly pump their campaign with as much noise as possible. And force people to vote for the candidate's smile, instead of their positions on "american power in the world", or "economic vs. military intervention", or the WTO and it's role in the world, or global warming, etc.

To take an example: the immigration "problem". Here the republican candidates suddenly realised that they were unable to carry the "strong on defense, strong on support for Bush" message to silence their detractors. And why is that? Because those who voted for the candidates said they would not if all the immigrants weren't rounded up and put in a cattle- range.

So the result was that the campaigns had to craft a more palatable view that struck a balance between outright kicking everyone without "american blood" out of the country, or putting them in concentration camps, and between keeping mexicans hard at work in low- paying jobs without legal papers.

But in the end it didn't change much, because the suggestions offered to fix it veered off into the realm of the impossible, as well as had no backing among either progressives or conservatives. In the end those who demonstrated were mexicans, for the prospect of being allowed to work legally. Which, somehow was seen as courageous, but didn't amount to any real change.

And so the issue disappeared, in favour of.. I don't know.. Khalid Sheik Mohammed's endless magical terror plot stories.

And that kind of thing is not necessary. And it requires effort from many people that how the issue disappears is accepted as perfectly fine; it doesn't get boiled away all by itself.

And if the conservatives can do it on even one issue like this - to even change their representatives' fundamental desire to be lickspittles for Bush - then how come the democrats or the various actual progressives can't do the same. On healthcare, or terrorism, or american power and influence in the world (is it possible to ask whether that only can be justified if the methods are acceptable, and documented?), on social equality - hell, even on the rule of law?

To force their representatives to take actual stands on issues, and penalise them if they cannot find a real position, with some help, than can be debated?

I mean, this is how it's supposed to work, no? That people come up with serious issues at the town square, which their representatives should be carrying to Washington?

An Indian gift?

"if all the immigrants weren't rounded up and put in a cattle- range." Terret rotam fortunae?

Turnabout as fair play? Wow! But aren't the cubicle-filled towers, "engineered environments" already, even worse?

Turn out the Barbarians, send the Vikings on their way (again). And the surprise will be how many problems just end up solvent by (the new) common sense.

The question is, do we shrink gradually? Or suddenly, catastrophically?

If Huckabee can diet, why can't Moore? And, America/a miracle die-t cast-e?

Lean and extreme. That's the ticket. Just don't wait around for the "scalpers". Calligraph's cacography will not be needed to imagine the catastrophe.

.

.

;.......................Posted by: one eco ego / December 11, 2007 12:57 PM

Now that this has been bumped I'll address it.

While I agree that America's healthcare system is poor, we also have to recognize that Michael Moore is a massive propagandist.

Norway great for renewable huh? They love the environtment so much that they wouldn't privatise their oil companies? Well why is it that despite ratifying kyoto it's emissions grew 80% from 1990 to 2004 rather than being lowered.

http://www.aftenposten.no/english/local/article2157059.ece

Norway did not "discover" geothermal power, it was an italian in 1904. http://www.answers.com/topic/geothermal-power?cat=technology

As far as I know, yes it is extremely liberal, and values human rights. I don't know how the government will react to the massive CO2 increase, but hopefully they are so loving of the environment they'll make some radical changes.