Michael Moore
Michael does takeout DVD
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Michael does takeout DVD
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What a liberal communist godless country! Isn't it a comfort that they will all be going to hell..?
Sigh.
hey, can someone find me a postable link of this clip, so i can embed this in my forum posts? you can't embed onegoodmove.org links (actually, you can't post them most times as the onegoodmove site forces a redirect.)
Norway is an extremely successful society, with a working capitalist system, a modern efficient welfare state and amazingly low levels of anti-social behavior. But it's strange that Michael Moore thinks that the low crime rate in Norway is a result of soft criminal justice system. It's much more sensible to think of is as the reason for or the cause of the soft penalties. When almost no one commits violent crime, the law is so well established that you don't need harsh penalties.
The vindictiveness of the American penal system is sometimes appalling, but we are a very criminal people. Criminality is widespread across the American population, from drug offenses to tax evasion and white collar crime to millions of violent crimes every year. We're not doing criminal justice correctly, but I don't think that there is a straightfowrad, short-term solution to American criminality. The challenge is to try to reduce crime as much as possible while protecting people's human rights, not to try to reduce crime to Norway levels
Guess what guys... I live in this Country. What Michael told you, is 98% truth. YES 98%..
The remaining 2% is: 1. Even with its massive finacing capability, the country educational rate is still number 33 PISA 06 US is nr 28
2. Norwegian Tech industry is going down, because the goverment is unwilling to invest, decrease tax, and research/invest in groundbreaking educational reforms.
3.Norway, have more "medical malpractice" per pers than most of other country.
4.To educate doctors, there is a pass or nonpass grade, ONLY
So.. Yes there is a down side of the upside. I think Norway can "still" do better!
When stupid hicks like Hannity bad-mouth European social democracies and insist that America is the greatest country on earth, it does our nation a great disservice. We need to observe other systems that seem to work better than our own and learn to adapt.
Nice job with this video, Norm.
Shocking, a prison that actually rehabilitates the inmates. The American system encourages criminals to continue to be criminals. What is probably good about Norway's system is that the prisoners actually leave a good society and go to a bad one while in America a lot of people prefer prison because it's the only place they can get food and health care.
I don't think Moore's piece there proves that Norway's system rehabilitates people. The people who committed murders (mostly crimes of passion, it seems), were not harded criminals who were living a long life of crime before entering prison and being "treated like human beings". They were, like many, many criminals everywhere, one-time violent offenders who were unlikely to re-offend if they were let free. When you have one of the lowest violent crime rates in the world, you can empty the prisons and still not see much of a bump in the crime rate. We have crime coming out our ears (relatively speaking, compared to other modern societies), so recidivism seems like a serious problem. But part of it is really just appearance--when you have millions of people in prison, and tens of millions of crimes, a lot of those crimes are going to be committed by former inmates. So we conclude that the problem is recidivism and letting free incorrigible convicts. In reality the phenomenon is created by the fact that many many Americans have been locked up and there is a lot of crime in general.
I think that rehabilitation has some demeaning aspects to it. Most criminals already have some kind of moral sensibility, which punishment can awaken. Others would regret their crime anyway (although admittedly still others are sociopaths or harded, violent people). But the idea that you can train people like you can train dogs by throwing them in an institution, seems demeaning to me. You can train and condition people, but that leaves unsatisfied their demand to be recognized as free individuals. I'm a retributivist in that I think that receiving a punishment which morally fits the crime is more like "being treated like a human being", than threats or rehab programs are.
It amazes me that people like you have so much venom and hatred towards anybody who dares to show any love or devotion to their country ... unless, of course, they're not from America. The ironic thing is that you'll immediately turn around and claim that you love America more than any of us because you're so willing to speak hatefully about it. Perhaps you could be rational and divorce his critique of some foreign policy from your own kneejerk, hateful reaction towards those of us who do love America.
Certainly it's useful to look to foreign countries for examples of differing systems. But direct 1:1 comparisons are impossible unless there is a foreign country which is exactly like America. And there isn't. Which, coincidentally, is why we're the greatest country on Earth.
And for all the crying about American journalists daring to claim that their land is the best, it's funny how so few in America know that Europe has been engaging an all-out media campaign against us for years now. Here's a very interesting video that documents the subject:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2GOHaXKv_hE
bblleeeechchhhhhh.
...nice footage from Frognerparken, though.
Um... so that entire cause and consequence thing - it's not really something you're all that keen on in America, then?
Someone earlier made the argument that because the US has to deal with extraordinary domestic conditions, and because it apparently deals with those conditions somewhat successfully (?), the US is therefore the greatest country in the world. This seems to me a rather silly argument. China has to deal with an overwelmingly larger population and with extraordinary condtions that arise from it. Does anybody really think China is the greatest country in the world? Greatness isn't exactly an objective measure. I love my children, therefore they are the greatest. It's a sentimental judgement that reflects personal attachment and preference. There are, however, standard that provide objective measures for civility, and standards of living that aren't entirely contingent on subjective appraisal. To me, it seems that Norway has a low crime rate because the general standards of living are very high. The low poverty rate and freedom of opportunities seem to be key. It's also important to remember that Norway didn't always have so little prisons and that there's a reason for its decline. One reason had to do with the way that certain methods of punishment played a role in creating more aggressive criminals and in maintaining criminal behaviour. The US also has more prisons because there is has a prison industry. By the way, my cat "Boogers" is the greatest cat in the world.
Tillerman, is that you?
Oh and by the way, thanks for the youtube clip of CBN (Christian Broadcasting Network). I needed a laugh.
Exactly. And so is love. Does that mean love is 'stupid', or 'redneck' or 'hick' or 'neocon', or any of the other ridiculous epithets left-wingers apply to patriotism?
Nah, my cat is the greatest in the world. See, we can both think that, and the world didn't spontaneously explode. In other news, when you go to a sporting event and buy one of those foam fingers that says "we're #1", this is not actually a contractual obligation. It's a rallying cry, something to stand for. It shows that you care.
It has been said by conservative pundits that the best way to piss off a liberal is to start talking positively about the US or show any sign of patriotism - wave a flag, sing the anthem - and I have seen that proven numerous times. You have to ask yourself why this is the case. Why does love for your country and respect for your fellow countrymen fill liberals with such anger?
Actually the US has more prisons because the US has more crime. As much as everyone would like to boil causation down to their pet political plank, what causes crime is actually a very complex issue.
This new approach of America-hatred - going around the world, getting a glib/superficial understanding of a nation and then cherry-picking only the favorable elements of their culture to deride the US - is pretty ridiculous when really examined. It's like cobbling a meal together from 100 different courses. Sure, the raspberries taste great on the chocolate mousse, but the raspberries from the mousse combined with the tartar sauce from the steak? Not that great. The point: if you only look at a country's strong points, and how it compares favorably to your home, you'll obviously always think your home is worse. It's called the "grass is greener" syndrome, and the only question that really needs to be answered is, if it's so great in Norway, why aren't you living there?
Thanks for the glib response to a factual and well-documented problem, which you dismiss solely because it's presented on a network with a religious affiliation. I needed confirmation of my beliefs about liberals.
Tell me - should the poor and starving refuse to eat food provided by the Salvation Army for the same reason? Or can you accept that sometimes help (and truth) might come from a source with whom you have a completely irrelevant and immaterial philosophical difference?
I swear to god I feel like I'm living more and more in a bad movie. If you tried to point any of this out on TV, any random idiot (conservatives I'm sure of, but liberals would probably do this too) would shout you down with the nationalistic bullshit about how we are the greatest country on Earth, and how somehow freedom of speech is so unique to us. Hey guys, it's not 1800... the world has changed. We suck ass at a lot of things. I just feel like there are such obvious solutions to so many problems but people debating on TV are about as intellectually honest as fucking advertisements. I don't understand why you can get far better discussions of issues on some free internet forums than you can on national TV where everyone is supposed to be educated. People just refuse to have an open mind and follow facts, they just push their stupid fucking agenda, truth be damned.
All of this and there's nothing I can do to change it, or even move it just a fucking millimeter. TV is just such a huge fucking joke. God damnit.
I swear, anytime they bring in 2 people to debate an issue THEY DON'T ACTUALLY DEBATE THE ISSUE.... FUCK they just talk about some random other shit that is totally fucking irrelevant. When Bill OReilly has people on to debate topics, he never (or at least I've never seen) actually debates the issue (ie the merits of having universal healthcare or the same thing on ANY ISSUE) he just picks some stupid shit to complain about. Usually it's something like 'one of your supporters had a sign that said something mean'. And then they fucking talk about that for the entire segment. And since both sides are fucking dishonest as hell, they will fucking dodge questions to no tomorrow and he will keep asking the fucking question. "Ok, so I understand you have a right to be out there protesting, but why do you have to bring personal attacks in to it?" "Well the real issue is how the other side did BLAHBLAH"
FUCK what is wrong with these people
Even if they somehow did debate an issue, people just fucking make stuff up and nobody even fucking cares. SOCIALIZED MEDICINE SUCKS WAAAAAAAH I CANT HEAR YOU STATISTICS WAAAAAAAAH, IM COVERING MY EARS.
Then you have fucking people like caligraph (who probably represents about 90%+ of Americans) who actually support this stupid bullshit of how we are the greatest fucking country on earth, and how it's apparently unpatriotic to criticize your country at all, because we're perfect and everything.
There is no real debate on anything. Nobody approaches issues with an open mind willing to look at statistics or moral or any type of arguments. It's just a huge fucking joke.
America blows I want to move.
Sorry for the rant... sigh. I hate people
Thanks for the glib response to a factual and well-documented problem
Well, I just returned from a two-week vacation in France. I was treated very well and I didn't notice any anti-Americanism on the news. In fact, when Americans were mentioned, it was in a rather flattering way. This CBS report was exagerating. And being critical about the current U.S. administration is not being "anti-American".
I was told many times that I had a cute accent and the French went out of their way to be very kind to me.
Eric, lol, yes I believe that Average Joe/T4t now has a new name.
Some Americans repeat over and over "We have the greatest country in the world". The rest of the world is sick and tired of hearing this. It's obnoxious.
I recommend reading George Orwell's Notes on Nationalism
CBS .. oops, that should have been CBN.
Yawn. AverageHick/Teabag/Callgirl I want the rest of my 5 mintues back. By the way welcome back JoAnn. I'm glad you're back so we can now get back to our usual rut of burning miniature American flags and drinking the blood of Christian babies. :)
Caligraph, aka T4T...
The real knee jerk reaction is that you jump whenever someone dares say that Amerikkka is not the most wonderfulest nation in the whole wide world. I love my country, Spain, but you better believe we are the first ones to speak up and critize when something can be done better. For that exact reason, because we want our country to genuinely be the best it can possible be. Not a soothing empty rallying chant.
As for CBN post, what a load of BS. A full-on media campaign against the US, you say? That is laughable, because so much more can be said inversely from the US. Remind me, what was every American tv-pundit and opinion writers say when Spain voted off Aznar's party and brought in Zapatero after the 3-11 bombings (and after 75% of the population=30 Million people marched on the streets to protest terrorism), I think the kindest comment was that we had caved in to the terrorist and were a bunch of wussies. Now, those responsible for our attack are dead or in prison, while those responsible for 9-11 have not even been charged (OBL!), the US legal systems resembles more each day a Taliban's wet dream with suspension of Habeas Corpus, secret prisons, extraordinary renditions, torture...
Really, the US would do itself a favor if for once, stopped looking at its own belly button and realized that other countries may have some possitive qualities you could learn from.
Sean Hannity: Michael Moore is a pathetic propagandist, he's not even any good at it...
calligraph:
Sean Hannity is one of the most hateful venomous assholes on TV - spare us your paeans to his "love of country"... we didn't need any confirmation of our beliefs about conservatives.
And the interesting thing is that although he hates us "America haters" he keeps coming back jumping the security hurdles with different aliases. It's almost like he's a masochist.
Don't you know they have an "agenda"...you know...like them homosexuals? ;)
Don't you know they have an "agenda"...you know...like them homosexuals?
hee hee..
Or our agenda of hating America.
Thanks for the welcome back. One thing about Callgirl, he's good for a laugh.
It's not that easy to move to a different country. The receptionist in the hotel that I was staying in was from Poland. One day she was sitting there crying because she had found out that she could no longer work in France and had to leave. Very sad.
What's great is the way you guys so quickly settle on a terrific monikers for him: teabagger, callgirl, ...
It's enough to drive a prissy wing-nut bonkers. :)
It's funny that to love your country you have to declare that it's "the greatest on earth." Who cares what position we're in? "We're No. 1, Hey!" (repeat, louder each time; forget that your team doesn't go to class/is on steroids/drinks more in one night than you do all month...).
You can love your country and still work to fix it just as you can love your cat and train it to poop in the litter box and not in your slippers.
Just as we can learn from our peers, our citizenry and administration could learn from the successes of others. Starting with education, yo, while we take care of those who are the least fortunate. 1 step at a time - even if there are a gajillion steps to take.
Psht - when I saw the opening of this clip, I thought the named country was going to be Sweden. Their health care and support for families is pretty sweeeeeet. Did anyone else hear the NPR story on European countries's support for maternity and parental leave? Some good info was in there.
The CBN video doesn't have any substance, only accusations. Starting off with 'Polls clearly show that Europeans have turned against America in increasing numbers.' Not Americans, but America. It could be because of George Bush or [George Bush's illegal invasion of] Iraq, but we must blame the horrible liberal media for poisoning those poor liberal Europeans' minds. 'One way media war...'
Also, the video has to make the point that hate us just because we are who we are, American. Never do they go into any reasons, just that they have all been listening to sinister propaganda fed to them by their media. The pro-US TV ad was put out by a conservative group, because conservatives like America, and they are not evil liberals.
These feelings have been around for a long time, but at the fringes, so now that they are mainstream, that means that everyone is an extremist. The 'long time' comment makes me think of religious conflicts, where the 'best' solution is to kill enough of the people who disagree with whatever dominant point of view is in effect.
"Fat children, fast food, death penalty, no culture, Guantanamo." While I contest the 'no culture' comment, nothing that man says that Europeans think is non-factual. Sure, blame the air and water.
Watch that video again, and see with an analytical eye the words that they chose to use.
Repeat a falsehood long enough and it appears to be truth. You can say that again.
USA Rankings
Adult Literacy Scale #9 #1 Sweden #2 Norway - OECD Healthcare Quality Index #37 #1 France #2 Italy - WHO 2003
Student Reading Ability #12 #1 Finland #2 South Korea - OECD PISA 2003
Student Problem Solving Ability #26 #1 South Korea #2 Finland - OECD PISA 2003
Student Mathematics Ability #24 #1 Hong Kong #2 Finland - OECD PISA 2003
Student Science Ability #19 #1 Finland #2 Japan - OECD PISA 2003
Women's Rights Scale #17 #1 Sweden #2 Norway - World Economic Forum Report
Life Expectancy #29 #1 Japan #2 Hong Kong - UN Human Development Report 2005
Journalistic Press Freedom Index #53 #1 Finland, Iceland, Ireland and the Netherlands tied - Reporters Without Borders 2006
Political Corruption Index #17 #1 Iceland #2 Finland - Transparency International 2005
Quality of Life Survey #13 #1 Ireland #2 Switzerland - Economist Magazine Environmental Sustainability Index #45 #1 Finland #2 Norway - Yale University ESI 2005
Overall Currency Strength #3 #1 UK pound Sterling #2 Euro - FTSE 2006 Infant Mortality Rate #33 #1 Iceland #2 Singapore - UN World Population Prospects report 2006 (and this predated the collapse of the dollar)
Human Development Index #10 #1 Norway #2 Iceland - UN Human Development Report 2005
The US is the only G-8 country that allows 47 million people (15.8% of the total population) to go without any form of health insurance.
You know what? You're right! It is a complex issue, and we've taken the initiative to fix this complex issue by taking simplistic measures to handling the problem: fill up the prisons. Because after all, it's easier to keep locking people up even if the crime rates are increasing than to actually get to the root causes of the problems.
PS: Here's some balanced news to help alleviate the tension.
PPS: Oh and you just gotta love how the CBN story started by saying, "...Europeans have been fed a steady diet of media distortions..." and then talking about how people bring up Gitmo a lot(02:29). LOL! It just doesn't get any better.
Oh! I knew I've seen you from somewhere.
It amazes me that people like you have so much venom and hatred towards anybody who dares to show any love or devotion to their country ... unless, of course, they're not from America. The ironic thing is that you'll immediately turn around and claim that you love America more than any of us because you're so willing to speak hatefully about it.
Do you even read the comments others post here or do you immediately fly into a fit of apoplexy just thinking about Michael Moore? There wasn’t anything hateful in what I wrote except a bit of malice directed at a half-wit, proto-phalangist, know-nothing TV tool (Hannity). I’m a veteran of the U.S. military. What have you done to prove your allegiance?
it's funny how so few in America know that Europe has been engaging an all-out media campaign against us for years now.
What are you talking about? I see lots of anti-European rhetoric on American TV but I haven’t witnessed the opposite. I have never experienced a single episode of anything you could call anti-American in all of my travels. I watch television news from France and Spain almost daily and I have not seen this alleged America-bashing your video talks about. On the contrary, I have found that almost everyone, everywhere has a fairly high opinion of America and Americans, in spite of all of the Europe bashing being carried out by people of your ilk. This is just my own experience, which brings me to my next point.
I asked you back when your name was Teabagger where you went for your news. I guess this is your answer; CBN, the biggest piece of crap outside of Fox News. The video wasn’t interesting; it was a joke. You need to understand the difference between news and opinion-editorial. Find a real news source.
American is the greatest honest. I have been to quite a few countries and one this i have noticed, America is the only one that feels the need to chant/shout/mention that they are the greatest in the world!! Who cares.
Callgirl, the facts speak for themselves you are not the "greatest" country in the world as you rank terribly. As for no other country out there to compare the US to, yes you would compare the US to that country not the other way around, given most western countries are older than the US. The simple fact you are "uncomparable" does not make you the default "greatest country".
Also that CBN post, as someone who lives over here in the Europe, there is very little "american bashing". What there is, is unbiased objective observation of the actions of the US. Mainly because what you do effects us. When you remove human rights and create secret prisons, we speak out.
I personally look forward to a new president, hopefully the next one will start to undo the damage Bush has done.
Hey, Tim, I have a great followup question for you - what team ever rallied from behind by constantly shouting "We suck!"
The idea of patriotism isn't just about loving your country when it's up. It's about loving it when it's down, too. It boils down to cliche, because cliches are true. That's how they become cliches.
The hilarious thing about this statement is how people like you repeat it, over and over, as if it's true. Yet the only time I ever hear or say anything patriotic is when we do something right, or in defense after some smartass liberal starts bagging on us. Tell me where you see a surfeit of people boosting the US anywhere right now. I'd love to go there. Get a few days away from the constant whinging and 'ironic commentary'.
You're creating a paper tiger to knock down. There is no grand mythical patriotism in this land, particularly not where any of us live. You aren't patriotic, and you want to make sure everybody hears about it. It's not about the country, it's about you.
Undoubtedly because you are either not paying attention, and/or because the biased tend not to recognize bias. You're overly critical of your country - why would someone overly critical of your country set your radar off?
And if you're watching American cable 'foreign' news, guess what, you're watching news sanitized for your consumption. BBC America is nothing like the BBC.
This has been my contention on numerous occasions. Interestingly, many people here have been quick to chime in with anecdotes about how unpopular we are, about sewing Canadian flags on their backpacks, etc. In any case, that wasn't my argument. People vary - it's human nature. Their media is biased against us.
Really? What 'European bashing' did I commit? Saying my country's better than his? America is better than Norway. Know why? Because I'm fucking American. I'm sure Norway is fine, I mean Knut Hamsun was from there. He was a great writer and a hell of a Nazi. And I bet the fish is always fresh. It's great for Mr. Norwegian Guy up there. But to me it's at least second. I'm sure he feels the same. And I don't even want to bomb him!
Surely you can comprehend the effectiveness of a montage. It's the favorite method of Mr. Moore. The citations are certainly capable of being evaluated on their own merit.
Der Spiegel. Le Figaro. The BBC. Panorama (Germany). The Times Online UK. The list of examples goes on - even a nod from Tony Blair himself. Seriously, what am I thinking posting this? A Christian touched it! Thank God none of your choice sources of information are ... oh, wait.
A spirited discussion is great but how did Turrets Syndrome become the toast of the Left?
The best solution is to try and forgive Daddy and live in a more matriarchal society, which America is a long way from being with its awful, nasty cowboy firebrand manifest destiny heritage. We really should take it all down and put it back the way it was before the Colonies. What were we thinking?!!!
I'm stunned at how people fall for the concept that the government is here to give us things and it's all FREE. It's so seductive and a wonderful way for a guy like Hugo Chavez to become "benevolent" dictator in a motherland style milkmaid to the masses wet dream.
But, on the other hand, maybe things are great in Norway. I'm sure it's true. It's a small country, which is fairly homogenous in its profile. Guess what? That's NOT the US. So, Moore rides it for all it's worth with his smarmy intonated 'up yours' to middle America V.O.. I wish him well; I hope it makes him feel good. OK, whatever.
Meanwhile, go test the illegal immigration standards of Norway and report back. It could be interesting. I won't say America is better than anywhere else, because it's just a stupid premise for an ugly argument, but America is certainly unique in ways that I cherish. I'm just such the jingoist.
"America is better than Norway. Know why? Because I'm fucking American." What if you are a non-fucking american? If that is why you think american is better then you have some fucked up values.
As for the backing the team that sames "we suck" if you lose no biggie if you win that is more impressive.
"I mean Knut Hamsun was from there. He was a great writer and a hell of a Nazi." So you are saying that because Nazi came from Norway it is suddenly less than America? Do you know how many Americans went to Germany to answer the call? You have the KKK, one of the slowest to allowed blacks to serve.
Again as someone who lives outside of the US, i know that your media is heavily censored and biased. British news groups as not unbiased, as no news group can truly be, but they try to be fair. And lets be fair you guys get up to stupid stuff.
All this CBN crap about anti-americanism in Europe is total bull. It's not anti-americanism but anti-Bushism and anti-Republicanism - which to CBN, of course, is the same thing, but that's another topic.
Only eight years ago, when a certain B. Clinton was president, Europeans registered constantly high esteem for the US. Sure, they tend to criticize the death penalty, the jingoism, the evangelicalism, the huge portions at McDonald's.
But most Europeans like Americans as a people. They love to travel through this country. They dream about Route 66 and about the nights in New York and about the beaches of Miami and St.Barbara. And Hollywood movies top the charts. They also admire America's, yes, racial tolerance (higher than in most European countries, believe it or not), almost non-existant antisemitism and the genuine and naive patriotism here. Europeans haven't forgotten Vietnam or Chile or Grenada. But they also remember WWII and the Marshall plan.
So, to cut things short: All it takes for the US is to elect another prez. And to pull out of Iraq. And to sign the Kyoto protocol. It's that simple, really. Clinton was and still is hugely popular over there. Bush is despised and ridiculed. But I asure you: A president Obama or Edwards or even someone as lackluster as Hillary - and the mood will turn In. An. Instant.
CBN hasn't got a clue.
Both Norwegians and Americans are arrogant, but the problem is that Americans are also quite ignorant.
Instead of parading around with this self-proclaimed entitlement ("the world greatest country", "global problem fixers"), realize that America got as many problems as any other country (you might even beat Russia...).
Norway is far from perfect, but at least we learn from our mistakes. We got alot of problems in healthcare, law and ESPECIALLY education, contrary to what Moore says.
"But most Europeans like Americans as a people. They love to travel through this country. They dream about Route 66 and about the nights in New York and about the beaches of Miami and St.Barbara. And Hollywood movies top the charts. [...]"
This is a tough one. In a sense you're completely right, but when you think about how the American culture has been imposed onto countries worldwide, the rest of the world's "love" for Coke, the entertainment business, cars, TV and so on is more a curse than anything else. We might love you for it, but the world would be a better place without it.
(sorry if this post turns up multiple times, I got an error the first time I treid to post)
What team ever rallied from behind by saying "We're ahead!" when they're behind? What team ever rebuilt with the same incompetent coach who mismanaged them into mediocrity? And what team ever paid attention to the idiot cheerleaders when the talented players are dispirited. Frenchfries hit the nail on the head - your CBN clip is utter horseshit. Opinions about the United States have plummeted virtually everywhere - not just Europe - since Bush's protofascist government took office.
It’s both creepy and comical that hicks like Call-boy want to believe that Europeans hate Americans. CBN isn’t Christian and it isn’t news; it’s a propaganda tool used to scare American Christians into believing that the Republican party is working on their behalf.. Someone tells someone to do a story on how much Europeans hate Americans so they manufacture a weak-as-hell expose. Imagine how easy it would be for a French network to do a story about how much Americans hate the French.
And all of the citations were mainly vague or stupid. “Oh my god, British author Margaret What’s-her-face has anti-American feelings? Run for your lives!” A bunch of German school kids think that Abu Gharib was disgraceful. So do I and so should any decent human being. They said that if you repeat a distortion enough times it becomes true. This is bullshit but they never said what the distortions are. Abu Gharib is not a distortion, the disastrous outcome to the war in Iraq is not a distortion, Blackwater's crimes are not a distortion.
I suggest you subscribe to The New Yorker, The Atlantic, Harper’s, and the NYT, for starters. Turn off the TV and especially the trash you are poisoning yourself with on CBN and Fox. Or you can just be a stupid hick for the rest of your life.
I hope that Michael Moore is getting through to Americans that we could be doing things a lot better for everyone in this country. He is a great American.
Type in "America is the greatest country in the world" on Google and you get 12,700 results.
You know, I have to admit I like statements like these a lot. The sarcasm, the overt blanket disdain and otherwise indifference for another country's history and culture - I use it as a driver myself very often.
But. I do it to my own country. I deride people who do not know their own history. Who think the nazi- party never was popular in Norway before and during the war. To people who are unable to pick up "Sult"(english: Hunger) by Hamsun because he stood on principle rather than cave in when membership in the nazi- party became illegal.
To people who do not remember how nurses sent to the east- front, to care for soliders of various nationalities fighting with the germans against Russia, were sentenced for high treason. In the same courts that excused our local "terrorists" fighting against the nazis, even though they killed their countrymen, civillians and soliders.
To people who do not know how the military was left defenseless and unprepared due to conscious decisions by the labour government before the war.
Who glorify how the war was won through nationalism and pride alone. And so on.
But I do not think it's appropriate to spend time gloating over other countries' lack of Norwegianness (even if I of course know they all suck donkeyballs).
Because to do so would be to arrogantly assume that I can judge another country and it's people on the basis of a few anecdotes, and seriously expect to have a full picture. And the fact of the matter is that by not doing this, by instead respecting my own history and that of other countries - I can establish certain limits on what ways another country should be able to influence my own, and vice versa.
So do understand that when most, the vast majority, of foreigners criticise the US, it is usually based on universal things like the justice system, conduct when it comes to foreign policy, trade- agreements, and so on. Because these are the things that other countries have similar experience in. These are not solely internal issues.
The rest of us might have a problem with loud, inconsiderate american stereotypes, of course - but that's not a criticism of the nation as a whole, or it's conduct.
Still, it's not possible to escape from the fact that many americans are of the opinion that they, through the power of their bestness, should dictate how the world should work.
And of course, criticising that for being arrogant and myopic, is being anti- american. It's difficult to get past that, when criticism of abhorrent behaviour on the international level is met with baffled, petulant anger. As one republican I know said - it's obscene how I cannot trust the US to be an honest broker in the middle east: it was just selfishness that prevented me from seeing the truth about how the US knew best.
Because - it is the case that foreign policy is to a certain extent a product of national politics and national interests. So at one point, the national character will be involved. This is the case for other countries as well, of course, no matter how much they proclaim it is not.
But it is particularly obvious when people cut the legs off any usual standard of conduct, like this latest US administration has. To - unfortunately - a wide yawn, or even worse, a loud cheer, from the general population.
And I don't know what you would like criticism of that to sound like..? We all know it's got something to do with the national character, with how distant the "ruling class" and the beltway is from the rest of the people. The exclusivity of foreign affairs, the unaccountable and strong executive, etc.
Still, it wouldn't suprise me if criticism, even if it was constructive, on that point - wouldn't be welcomed. No matter how unofficial it was, and how cushioned in concern it would appear to be.
And I have to admit - I worry that the US just isn't capable of really changing for the better on these things. And will, as usual, elect to ignore all the issues in favour of yet another uncritically nationalistic narrative. When important issues are, through the usual political process, reduced to a rallying cry that glosses over all possible subtlety and critical thought.
(btw, ...did I mention the nazis? I think I mentioned the nazis.)
Calligraph, are you Tillerman or not?
I agree with Styx, I am looking forward to a new president. I love my country, but I believe there a lot of changes that need to happen. The fact that so many people have to question America's greatness (or non-greatness) troubles me. Yes, there are a lot of people here that overly boast their love for America and look down on other countries, but we could learn a lot from other countires if the people in charge would fully acknowledge our problems.
Honestly. What do you think he's going to say!
I may be wrong, but I don't remember posting links as being part of Tillerman's MO.
Perhaps calligraph/T4T has been to Europe and learned for himself how much Europeans hate Americans, so the CBN propaganda clip matched his experience. He just failed to recognize that it was just him they couldn't stand.
He just failed to recognize that it was just him they couldn't stand.
Precisely. Amen,.
Calligraph, are you Tillerman or not?
Oh, come on. A little smart ass such as yourself couldn't be that fucking naive.
What's wrong with asking Jo Ann? A lot of you guys thought Tillerman was me a while back. So yeah, I guess I am that fucking naive. Welcome back!
A great film about America and old Europe is Nick Park's "Chicken Run". The American (voiced perfectly by Mel Gibson) has no solidarity with other chickens, and thinks his country is the greatest ("a little place I call the land of the free, the home of the brave"..."Scotland?!?"... "No! America!"). But all the oppressed "English chicks" want what he has (the gift of flight)--"teach us to fly!". Problem is, he can't really fly, it's sort of a con. And yet his indominable American enthusiasm is good for something, if not quite as good as actual flight. The myth is better than the reality, but the reality isn't all too bad.
There are a lot of things that other countries have figured out, which we haven't yet. In standard-of-living terms, Finland and Norway are better. But there is a lot about "Americanism" that is pretty good, and would possibly be lost if we started aping Norway in everything. Michael Moore told Oprah that the solution to the health care problem is getting over our "every man for himself" mentality. I like that idea in general, but it's a very tall order, a questionable project. Why not characterize universal health care as an extension of liberty, a boon to American businesses groaning under the weight of health care costs, or an act of justice for all? There is something about Moore's argument in which it seems he doesn't just want America to adopt certain policies, but he wants it to be radically different from the country that it is. I don't think that that's possible or good.
A spirited discussion is great but how did Turrets Syndrome become the toast of the Left?
The best solution is to try and forgive Daddy and live in a more matriarchal society, which America is a long way from being with its awful, nasty cowboy firebrand manifest destiny heritage. We really should take it all down and put it back the way it was before the Colonies. What were we thinking?!!!
I'm stunned at how people fall for the concept that the government is here to give us things and it's all FREE. It's so seductive and a wonderful way for a guy like Hugo Chavez to become "benevolent" dictator in a motherland style milkmaid to the masses wet dream.
But, on the other hand, maybe things are great in Norway. I'm sure it's true. It's a small country, which is fairly homogenous in its profile. Guess what? That's NOT the US. So, Moore rides it for all it's worth with his smarmy intonated 'up yours' to middle America V.O.. I wish him well; I hope it makes him feel good. OK, whatever.
Meanwhile, go test the illegal immigration standards of Norway and report back. It could be interesting. I won't say America is better than anywhere else, because it's just a stupid premise for an ugly argument, but America is certainly unique in ways that I cherish.
ps. how do know that the person linking the CBN vid. didn't just have the most sublime sense of humor and nobody recognizes it?
@dende blogger: You know - americans don't have a