This was very funny. I remember having a debate similar to this at my place of work. Of course, though, no violence was part of the debate.

But humor aside, why is it so awful to speak about Christ, when historically that is what Christmas is all about? Surely Christ was not born in our December but in the Jewish Calendar version of April. But why the desire to secularize it?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but historically Christmas is actually NOT Christian. It was originally the pagan winter solstice celebration (among other things that were celebrated around this time of year). After the Christian take over of, well, everything, the Christians simply labeled this day as the birthday of Jesus and incorporated pagan symbols (e.g. the Christmas tree) into the holiday. Thus making the transition easier from paganism to Christianity (possibly to prevent greater upheaval, I'm not really sure but it makes sense to me). They did the same thing with Ostara (spring fertility festival) and Easter (zombie Jesus day).

Very sly of them, no?

Now that Christmas is basically a commercial holiday I wouldn't be surprised if people wanted to "secularize" it even more. I mean, who doesn't like getting presents and hanging out with their friends and/or family gorging themselves on yummy holiday goodness? Also, vacation from work and school is nice too.

I am personally indifferent (except for the days off from work... I ain't given those up, not never!). The only charm it really holds for me is nostalgia. And I'm not particularly materialistic (at least not by western standards), but I do like me some turkey and apple pie:-)

I suppose people want to be able to keep all that fun stuff but also not be a hypocrite for being non religious yet still celebrating X-mas.

When there is someone with an inferiority complex, how do they behave?

I ask this when I read an atheist's response to anything.

When there is someone with an inferiority complex, how do they behave? I ask this when I read an atheist's response to anything.

Spot on. This militant atheism - much like when foreigners and liberals profess their 'hatred' for America - is a product of their own insecurity. Religion is bad because it's intolerant! Now let me go put on my Flying Spaghetti Monster shirt to let you know how stupid I think you are.

Happy Federally Required Day Off From Work Day! Ever notice how depersonalizing things makes them cold and impersonal? Funny how that works.

""When there is someone with an inferiority complex, how do they behave?

I ask this when I read an atheist's response to anything.""

i can answer that: they act like michael behe or other ID supporters.

the "athiest's" post is correct, christmas is an amalgam of pagan festivites and a celebration of the winter solstice. only someone with an inferiority complex would even try to suggest that pointing out the recognized historical traits is somehow a weakness of character.

jonathan, just answer me these 4 questions:

what is the meaning of the christmas tree in relation to jesus, and why is it pine?

given the complete lack of reference within the bible about food in relation to "baby jesus", what christian significance is there to the feast - and why turkey?

given that santa claus is clearly idolic, from a x-tian perspective, what religious or spiritual significance is the leaving of cookies and milk?

and finally, if the gift giving is related to the birth of jesus, then why does the bible imply, in several passages, that the wise men took as long as 2 years to visit him, and did so in a different town then he was born?

you guys sure do think you know everything.

I actually do say Merry Christmas to people. And nothing in my previous post has anything to do with atheism. I'm actually keeping my spiritual beliefs private.

I enjoy the tradition of Christmas, to a degree. What I don't enjoy is people's ignorance. Ignorance of the history and ignorance of what is really going on. I'm sorry, but I just don't see a war on Christmas ANYWHERE! And where oh WHERE did this imagined "America hating" even come into it? I think America is great. I also think it needs some work. I think I'm great. I also think I need some work. Finding faults and trying to fix them is usually considered an honorable trait in a person. Why would it be any different with a society?

If I want to make fun of you or your beliefs I have every right to do so (which I haven't). And you me (which you have). And I can think whatever I like about it and it shouldn't make any difference to you if your convictions are honorable and true.

And I can feel all righteous and superior too, if that is part of my personality, but it isn't. What difference does it really make? You don't even know me and you are making this personal. What does that say about you?

I'm not trying to depersonalize Christmas. How could I, even if I wanted to? I would never try to impose my beliefs on someone else. Of course, that is different that actually having a real and honest discussion about history and events and philosophy... something Calligraph doesn't seem to be interested in but continues to haunt the OGM message boards anyway.

I think if I knew you I'd think you were an asshole. Not because of what you believe. It's just a personality thing.

People that think they are being attacked on all sides are generally delusional and paranoid. One of the symptoms of an inferiority complex.

This post, on the other hand, was a symptom of boredom.

Yeeeeeaaaaaah.

The church is completely open to public debate and scrutiny of their beliefs. Totally confident. And Bill O' seems like a Pillar of self confidence to you? Whining and Crying because one high school teacher expresses a different opinion?

Many Atheists may express some condescension and some believe that religious people are stupid, but religious people condemn Atheists to hell and accuse them of being Evil and Immoral.

Jon, Cali, I think you need to practice a little introspection before you psychoanalyze too many minority groups.

Spot on. This militant atheism - much like when foreigners and liberals profess their 'hatred' for America - is a product of their own insecurity.

You managed to put both militant atheism and America hater all in one sentence. Props!

Also, if the most 'militant' you can get as an atheist is to write books and mock religion I'll take that over religious fundamentalism any day of the week.

PS: You need new soundbites.

Also, if the most 'militant' you can get as an atheist is to write books and mock religion I'll take that over religious fundamentalism any day of the week.

The fact that you only think in such absolutes reveals the flaw in your mindset.

PS: You need new soundbites.

PS: You need to actually learn to debate, rather than label-and-run. Tell me: why do you think so many modern atheists have such open hostility towards people who are religious? Do you not think this is indicative of a character flaw?

"why do you think so many modern atheists have such open hostility towards people who are religious? Do you not think this is indicative of a character flaw?"

Is it a character flaw for blacks to resent members of the KKK? Most religions have a point of policy, that non-believers are inferior and immoral and need to be either saved or punished. Perhaps it is not fair to paint all religious people with the brush of violent extremists or even those that use religion as a reason to hate, but history does have allot of great examples of religious moderates following the extremists down the path of war and hatred and ignorance.

Preaching atheism is no more hostile then preaching religion and calling people stupid is a lot less hostile then calling people evil and believing they deserve to be tortured in hell for all eternity.

The "hostility" of athiests is somewhat overstates, but where it exists is the result of discrimination and censorship and the attempts of religious extremists (IE Christian right) to dominate American politics in a manner that has had catastrophic effects in the last 7 years.

Many Atheists may express some condescension and some believe that religious people are stupid, but religious people condemn Atheists to hell and accuse them of being Evil and Immoral

True, but what do two wrongs make?

I'm not saying that assholeishness is endemic to atheism, it's just that this happens to be an example of it. And although the atheist nation cries all the time about the supposed 'fundamentalist oppression' in this society, all I ever see are giggling, smug assholes putting on FSM t-shirts and yelling from pulpits how stupid everyone is for believing in something non-scientific.

The worst is when people go out of their way to find out someone's belief, then ridicule them for it - like the national poll about who believes in ghosts that was really only done to mock belief in ghosts. Who cares if someone believes in ghosts? Who cares if someone believes a guy died for their sins? If you're against preaching and dogmatism it seems rather ridiculous to preach and be dogmatic about it.

One has to wonder where all the self-righteous anger comes from. I've been an atheist for as long as I can remember, and unlike many I don't see the new wave of atheism as a product of some sweeping increase in rationality. It's the result of growing cynicism and narcissism, which are both facets of immaturity.

Do you know how the FSM was created and why?

I was raised an atheist.

I would disagree that the new atheism is about narcissism. Atheism has increased slowly over the years, in line with the advancement of science and an the development of an open society where we can see that homosexuality and premarital sex are not the end of the world. Perhaps some self importance fuels the belief that we can question everything, but I think Narcissism also fuels the religious leaders that want to control and manipulate people with their faith.

Perhaps the Immaturity you see comes from the fact that most new atheist are indeed immature (less then 30). Talk to a 22 year old about anything any you may see that.

Although I certainly do my best to respect everyones beliefs I think that "the movement" is done allot of good by those with no fear of insulting religion and no reluctance to react to those that want to teach faith based science and limit medical research with biblical references rather then ethical standards.

PS: Merry Atheist Christmas everyone.

I was raised Catholic

But honestly, it didn't last much longer past communion. It all seemed folly and shallow, and for an inquiring mind, not much of an answer to my questions, really.

Nowadays, hearing religious folks complain about being under assault, seems absurd beyond the pale. All this time I felt it was those of us who didn't belive, that were under assault, constantly labeled as souless, lacking spirituality and immoral.

And yet, I consider myself as a very soulfull, spiritual and clearly moral individual.

Christmas, for a celebration that claims to be the pinnacle of Christian values, seems totally lost, the defining characteristics read like the listing of the so-called 7 deadly sins: Luxuria (extravagance, later lust), Gula (gluttony), Avaritia (greed), Acedia (sloth), Ira (wrath), Invidia (envy), and Superbia (pride).

Honestly, as someone who refuses to fall into this trappings, I consider my atheist existence freer to seek genuine spirituality, soulful understanding and a rational sense of morality.

Go buy yourself some faith, it's currently on sale.

The readers of this site would probably like this video. The Elves Guild of America Strike against a greedy Santa. Very Funny.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_adKQFnG-eU

Happy Vacation Days.

-FoodMinusaur

Perhaps everyone should see religion for what it is (other than dogma and false and stupid and so forth): a business. It's the worst kind of business, too, the kind that's basically untouchable by law, but it makes people rich, so I doubt it's going anywhere anytime soon.

I see little difference between, say, Microsoft and Catholicism.

Microsoft: makes a lot of money, has a leader, has a ton of devoted fans, has a ton of dissenters, wants to take over the [computing] world and crush its competition, and so forth...

Catholicism: makes a lot of money (enough to establish its own small country), has a leader, has a ton of devoted fans, has a ton of dissenters, wants to take over the world and crush its competition, and so forth...

We might as well put "Inc." after the major religions.

I see little difference between, say, Microsoft and Catholicism.

Now, c'mon. What Microsoft is selling mostly works. I'm not a fan of their OS, but MS Office is a pretty good product and more or less delivers what I expect of it. My communion - forget about it. And my exorcism - what a total waste of time!

The sad thing is the cartoon relates to an actual event that happened recently. On a subway some kids said "Merry Christmas" to a Jewish guy. He responded with, "Happy Hannakah". So they got up and beat his ass senseless until some Muslim guy came in and broke up the mauling.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/7149916.stm

And I see posters whining about "militant Atheism". At least the Atheists aren't going around beating people up because of some fictional war on Christmas the fundies have dreamed in their head and carried out.

Sorry, here's a better link to the Christian assault against non-Christians.

http://www.allheadlinenews.com/articles/7009443567

And that's exactly what religion needs: ridicule!

I think we should not underestimate the power of embarrassment. The book Freakonomics briefly discusses the way the Ku Klux Klan lost its subscribers, and the example is instructive. A man named Stetson Kennedy, almost single-handedly it seems, eroded the prestige of the Ku Klux Klan in the 1940s by joining them and then leaking all of their secret passwords and goofy lingo to the people who were writing “The Adventures of Superman” radio show. Week after week, there were episodes of Superman fighting the Klan, and the real Klan’s mumbo jumbo was put out all over the airwaves for people to laugh at. Kids were playing Superman vs. the Klan on their front lawns. The Klan was humiliated by this, and was made to look foolish; and we went from a world in which the Klan was a legitimate organization with tens of millions of members—many of whom were senators, and even one president—to a world in which there are now something like 5,000 Klansmen. It’s basically a defunct organization. So public embarrassment is one principle. Once you lift the taboo around criticizing faith and demand that people start talking sense, then the capacity for making religious certitude look stupid will be exploited, and we’ll start laughing at people who believe the things that the Tom DeLays, the Pat Robertsons of the world believe. We’ll laugh at them in a way that will be synonymous with excluding them from our halls of power. --Sam Harris