Wow, those are some pretty bad worst people in the world. Bill Maher's description of Americans as being selfish litttle children who are more than happy to do bad stuff and condemn others for doing the exact same thing is pretty fitting here.

After years of reading "WatchingAmerica.com" it really feels like our perception in the world is gaining velocity at exponential rates toward the bottom of a long and dark pit.

Look out for Medved's follow up piece on how the genocide of Native Americans wasn't so bad since they're "in a better place now."

Really, we just did them a favor is all.

Carlito: I read his piece on the native Americans, and nowhere does he say anything like that.

not only is this brilliantly offensive, it's also (#5) completely wrong. further, if he acknowledges that slavery wasn't helpful economically, then why is it necessary to defend it?

for the record, William Wilberforce got his legislation for the abolition of slavery passed in 1807.

Referenced article

Right on Zach. I was going to just comment on #5. Why is it the US thinks it's special when it does something or experiences something years after everyone else. 9/11, for example changed everything...uhuh. Israel, France, Italy and the UK were getting attacked by terrorists for decades, but it was a whole other matter when the US experienced it. I cant wait for the US to have universal healthcare. We won't stop hearing how wonderfully superior the US is for having it... 70 years after everyone else.

Oh man... I don't want to defend Medved (whoever he is), but I think we'd all benefit from understanding the more complex nuances involved here, rather than just having a simplistic, Disney-like good/bad view of this.

Yes, slavery is bad, obviously. That's one simplistic, good/bad opinion I'm perfectly happy to endorse. And yes, this man's motivation for saying these things seems to be a very bad one indeed.

But having said that, you need to realize that the greatest, and most dangerous lies are often built around a grain of truth -- or at least the illusion of it. That makes it easier for those who are predisposed to racism to embrace them. And it makes it important for us to understand these statements better than merely saying that they are bad and evil.

Thus:

1) Slavery HAS always existed. It existed in Africa, and Africans contributed to the trade. This is no excuse, of course.

2) This argument makes no sense to me; it's a horrible excuse. Except to note that the vast majority of white Americans today arrived long after the abolishment of slavery, and their families obviously had nothing to do with it. Not that a slave owner's great-great-great grandson has anything to do with it either...

3) Again, no excuse. But yes, it wasn't genocidal. I read of a slave owner who balked at the idea of sending his slaves into a dangerous semi-collapsed mine, saying his slaves were expensive -- send the Irish instead. This doesn't mean slaves were treated better than the Irish, or that it is better to be considered someone's property, than being considered worthless. But it means the word genocide is inaccurate.

4) This, I completely disagree with. It is meaningless. Slave owners did become wealthy through their monstrous actions. The northern states became industrialized, and that's what made them wealthy -- eventually, wealthier than the south.

5) America does hold a special position in the history of slavery. Many nations used slaves; they just kept it in their colonies -- including America. As such, America was left with an inheritance of slavery. Again, no excuse -- but if you lived in those days, would you have had the guts to be an abolitionist? But at least part of the reason why it took so long to be abolished, was that America was an outpost. Obviously, the fact that the South had built their economy around it played a greater role.

6) This is absolutely true, but it is completely misleading, since it in no way makes slavery any less horrible. Or else, we would be justified in in heading off to the most impoverished nations of Africa, rounding people up and take them home to live as slaves for a few hundred years -- provided their countries remained impoverished, their ancestors would indeed be better off. But obviously -- this is a ridiculous idea. It's an absurd and misleading point.

Medved is fucking amazing on several levels! The guy such an utter asshole that he actually thinks he's somehow scoring points against awful people who "hate America" by writing this shit.

It seems probabalistically likely that #2 is wrong too. (Of course, since most of black Americans are descended from slaves and some 35 million people in the US are nominally black, I'd say their descendents were "involved". Medved makes a telling slip in this heading - he meant only white ancestors.) But even among whites, if one looks at one's family tree and goes back, say, eight generations on every branch, there will be 256 ancestors. Even after allowing for imperfect population mixing (and intermarriage of descendents of slave holders with descendents of later immigrants), I wouldn't be surprised if a majority of white Americans have at least one slave-holding ancestor. If it isn't a majority, it has to be tens of millions at least.

I just put these comments in the website hosting Medved's article.

Wow… I don't know what is worst, Medved's article or the comments supporting what he is saying. Slavery was slavery. It was not justifiable then and it is definitely not justifiable now. To try to minimize the impact of slavery so that you can feel good about the history of this country is abominable.

To the people who keep writing very enthusiastically about how right Medved is and how well researched the article was please go back and do your own honest study of US history. Oh, and by the way, you are a racist. No, don't think for a minute that you are not because you are and please don't think, "oh, but I have black friends." There is no excuse for anybody who feels that this article is a great historical text. If you agree with this article than you probably agree with the "curse" of Ham. You also probably still believe that Jesus was white, blue eyes, blond hair, etc.

You know, as a Christian I feel discourage by the views of some people here. While we should be opening our hearts to those who are needy we rather put more barriers between us.

1. Slavery was an ancient and universal institution, not a distinctively American innovation.

Misleading arguement. Nobody said that America invented slavery. Also, why does it matter who invented it? I'm fairly sure America didn't invent "rendition" either, but we certainly use it.

2. Slavery existed only briefly, and in limited locales, in the history of the republic - involving only a tiny percentage of the ancestors of today’s Americans.

Red Herring. "see, only a few people benifitted from the selling of jewish art and valuables, so the holocaust wasn't so bad"...

3. Though brutal, slavery wasn’t genocidal: live slaves were valuable but dead captives brought no profit.

This arguement is untrue. Does genocide have to be intentional? I heard that on some of those slave ships, when they started laying the slaves on top of each other, in 9" spaces, packed like sardines, about half of the slaves would die on the trip over, due to disease from the bile and excrement that settled to the bottom of the boat, where people would sufficate in the excriment, or die of disease. It was worth doing it this way, because the other half would still be more slaves than standing them up. Slave owners wouldn't beat their slaves to death on purpose, but it happened, and it doesn't change the fact that these people were treated as property, and were beaten accordingly to stay property....

4. It’s not true that the U.S. became a wealthy nation through the abuse of slave labor: the most prosperous states in the country were those that first freed their slaves.

Ah, so slave owners didn't make money, they were only given a small pittance to make it week to week, and having dominion over another person as property was something they did just for fun.

5. While America deserves no unique blame for the existence of slavery, the United States merits special credit for its rapid abolition.

Dumbest. Statement. Ever.

6. There is no reason to believe that today’s African Americans would be better off if their ancestors had remained behind in Africa.

"Boy, we sure edumacated those savages! Theys so much happier now they are christian americans! USA! USA!

Willey, well done, well done my friend.

Willey said:

1. While America deserves no unique blame for the existence of slavery, the United States merits special credit for its rapid abolition.

Dumbest. Statement. Ever.

Yep, incredibly ignorant statement. Special credit? Ouf!

All of Europe and Canada abolised slavery before the United States did.

And slavery was abolished 1813 in Argentina, 1821 Columbia, Venzuela and Ecuador, 1823 Chile, 1829 Mexico, 1851 Peru.

Some very good points here -- the bits about slavery being abolished in other American countries is particularly poignant.

But I really HATE the point about how "most white Americans" have a slave owner as an ancestor. First off, EVERY American (regardless of ethnicity) has a slave owner -- and a murderer, and a rapist -- as an ancestor. It's just a matter of how far back you go. Is 8 generations the limit, as to how guilty you should feel about it? Secondly -- why the hell should you feel guilty about it at all? It was not of your doing.

We should all be aware of the shameful past that this country has had -- but we need also to be aware that every country has a shameful past.

Dzwonka, I agree with you. I can tell you that I go as far back as my great-grandmother. Beyond that I have no clue. I'm always amused when people say that they are half-this half-that and one tenth indian. Listen, you are who you are and that is it. If you consider yourself Italian but do not speak Italian, have never been to Italy (maybe just once), don't know anybody in the old country, guess what? YOU ARE NOT ITALIAN. You can substitute Italian for anything and it is the same. My point is that you have control only going forward. You can't dismiss the past but you can definitely improve the future.

3. Though brutal, slavery wasn’t genocidal: live slaves were valuable but dead captives brought no profit.

Don't you just love those 'it could have been worse' arguments?

We should all be aware of the shameful past that this country has had -- but we need also to be aware that every country has a shameful past.

One of the most important lessons a human being can learn, is that there is no true good vs. evil in this world.

"Look out for Medved's follow up piece on how the genocide of Native Americans wasn't so bad since they're "in a better place now."

Ironically, especially in the Caribbean, Africans were the temp workers brought in as replacements (for the Caribs, etc.). But also in the South. Now mostly mestizos/Indios are being brought in from Latin America as temp workers to replace Blacks with their "bad" (inobsequious) attitudes.

Medved is (mostly) right, but irrelevant. I almost think the White "color" is a Red Herring here. Could it be that Capitalists are the real villains, their Albinity being a mere incidental? It was the System, of treating an Empty Continent like a disposable roll of toilet paper. And,"proving" my point, treating Irish (Catholics? In the South) as less valuable than slaves 'cause they were worthless, i.e., worth less on the Open Market.

Worth less. Free (i.e., Slave) market. Supply and demand. Control your numbers, your value goes...up. Up to zero (from negative) if you stay out in the desert (Kalihari, Namib, Australian, Sonoran, Mojave, whereever).

Maybe?

Hey, the Desert is spreading. Yippy!

Then again the Spanish ("Spaniard" is a derogative formed from Spanish+Bastard. There are no Italiards, Russiards, etc, who had an Armada) were more looters that capitalists. Gentilhombres/hidalgos. But U.S.A. didn't start out Spanish. Manifest Destiny Development Globalization = Disaster Ecologically.

Am I going nuts, or is one evil emo making more and more sense every day...

I actually agree with Dzwonka here.

I think this argument can be taken both ways. It could be used in a snake-ish way to make excuses why slave OWNERS and SUPPORTERS (not the U.S. in general) weren't doing such a bad thing after all. Which I'm sure Medved IS trying to do.

But also, for example, #4 is something to learn from because it shows that real, hard teamwork prevailed over slavery. #1 and, more so #2, show the blaintly obvious fact that we should learn from this and move on. AMERICA is not responsible for this. African Americans were Americans too, I'm pretty sure they were against slavery. Abraham Lincoln was an American. Despite me being a white American, I had nothing to do with what those bastards did more than a hundred years ago, and no one today deserves credit either.

Whether you're an American, or you're white, no one needs to apologize for what their ancestors did over a hundred years ago. Live and let live.

And stop dividing people with lines on a map, and start dividing them by their individuality .

one evil axis made less sense than one evo emo. ;)

If only I could go back and tie in what 'one evo emo' said two posts up. But yeah, well said.

Summary, slavery is just gross inequality. Made official.

A crazy thought about the Color Spectrum (a main obsession, Pyth Allgemeine, inverted spectrum, wrapping octave):

Leaving aside Greek Exceptionalism (Athenian Democracy, Spartan Communism, The Greeks didn't "do" engineering, much less robots/automation), it could be that slavery is just one end of a continuum, like the (rainbow) color spectrum. It is the (leave out the color wheel-circularity for this analogy) extreme at the inequality end of the equal/unequal spectrum. At the other end, we have all been told, is Maoism. But the good Chairman had a harem. An inequality even money can't buy. Or Stalinism. Well, the East-block Party-Big-Wigs had (owned or not) Mansions, Datshas,with servants, 2nd, 3rd, 12th homes. "Ciao"-cescu being the type-specimen. This was "equality"?

No, Franklin "traitor-to-his-class" Roosevelt was closer. But then again, ugly (and lucky) Americans were way better off than the-rest-of-the-world at that time. Not equal, except amongst (most of) themselves.

Back but to un-greek engineering. The grasshopper culture of America is Southern. The Ant culture is Northern. Mechanization is a response to labor shortage. Slaves came too easy to the Greek/South. Damn Yankee ingenuity. MIT ain't WASP. Hans Moravec has said we could all (each) own our own robot. Or army of Dionysian nano-bots (controlled or not from a center or centripetally emergent collective). Or we could pay-royalties-to/rent-from Bill Gates/Keepers, who could then threaten to "send 'em out on strike" (his robots) if we demand/expect too much. What an ironic reversal that would be:

Only no reversal at all, if we don't act. [Glory Glory H(I) A(B) L(M)-a-lujah! Microhard Ass, whoever.]

I suppose he is doing good work against malaria. I don't want to depend on his ilk though. So?

           .

Moravec for President (Oprah for vice-).

Medved for Southern Sheriff, a role acting in an old movie (I love the censor evading obscenities in those old movies, westerns, only about a quarter million understand).

           .

By the way, Africa is hardly pristine, totally free of colonial screwing around, Belgium's being only the saliently egregiousest example of generally f__ing things up. Bill Gates's pet parasite actually has saved a great portion of Africa from even worse using-up-like-a-disposable-roll-of-toilet-paper, but only temporarily, and at big human cost.

Summarizing, slavery is just gross inequality. Made official.

           .

[And my Varna, color soul (a very alto tenor), vibrates at the blue in the immediately infra-red octave, C clef. The Seen (E, red) starts only on the bottom line of the treble staff. Chiaroscuro? Pyth A.G., or Ass.]

While it's understood that current day Americans should not be held responsible for atrocities of previous generations, we do have an obligation to act against the atrocities that are happening NOW, and boy do we have a packed schedule!

There's plenty of slavery in America today, you may not know it, but you may be eating oranges picked up by an enslaved field worker...

We are all so busy passing the buck, nobody is paying attention to that which we'll have to respond to our children one day.

Canaria, I just heard a segment on NPR the other day about that. Farmers promising Mexicans visas and then enslaving them. Something should be done about it to say the least.

I was just talking to a friend the other day about how using humans for factory and field work is such a waste of an incredibly valuable resource. If I was the head of GM, it would seem so much more beneficial to me to educate my workers, using my company's money, to become skilled engineers and technicians, and getting rid of the factory work completely . . . maybe by replacing them with robots designed by the engineers I trained. That way you get flawless engineering, and flawless design. And you benefit both ends of the workforce.

I read that BMW and Mercedes were both going down those roads. Too bad the U.S. tries to distance itself from Europe as much as possible.

Uh Dan, I'm pretty sure the UAW would shut down US auto producers if they tried that. How many engineers does it take to build a car anyway?

. . . the UAW would shut down auto producers if they gave you a free education for engineering and other high paying jobs in the automotive industry? . . . . Either you're implying that the UAW are idiots, or factory workers love their jobs.

My dad has been a factory worker for Tower Automotive his entire life. The conditions are horrible inside factories. The EPA won't let the factory let any of the chemicals into the outside air, so they keep them in the building. While right next to the factory are trained engineers in air conditioned offices that work for the company.

GM is so primitive that they employ people, who if trained could do much more for their company, instead of getting robots to do the same job. If the UAW is as retarded as you think they are than more power to you. But today we have so much technology to get rid of these horrible factory jobs and benefit humanity altogether if we put our minds to it.

Medved and his ilk need such an argument since the USA was spawned PERFECTLY formed as a "Christian" nation straight from the butthole of Jesus and our Consitution was a God-inspired dingleberry we just happened to be lucky enough to find.

the USA was spawned PERFECTLY formed as a "Christian" nation straight from the butthole of Jesus and our Consitution was a God-inspired dingleberry we just happened to be lucky enough to find.

1. Slavery was an ancient and universal institution, not a distinctively American innovation. Misleading arguement. Nobody said that America invented slavery. Also, why does it matter who invented it? I'm fairly sure America didn't invent "rendition" either, but we certainly use it.

Inaccurate response. He's clearly making a point about the fact that when people talk about slavery, they make a special case of talking about it in America. Thus, this is a valid point.

2. Slavery existed only briefly, and in limited locales, in the history of the republic - involving only a tiny percentage of the ancestors of today’s Americans. Red Herring.

Not in the slightest, and it's really tiresome when people who think they're intelligent debaters label anything they don't want to address as a 'red herring'. This is, again, a valid and separate argument. The fact that you cannot refute it doesn't make it a 'red herring'. It makes it true.

3. Though brutal, slavery wasn’t genocidal: live slaves were valuable but dead captives brought no profit. This arguement is untrue. Does genocide have to be intentional?

Again, your argumentation is seriously flawed. Medved argues that there was no organized, concerted effort to eradicate a race, which is the definition of genocide. And, again, he is correct.

4. It’s not true that the U.S. became a wealthy nation through the abuse of slave labor: the most prosperous states in the country were those that first freed their slaves. Ah, so slave owners didn't make money, they were only given a small pittance to make it week to week, and having dominion over another person as property was something they did just for fun.

Since I have not done the research I cannot confirm or deny Medved's argument here; however it is pretty well known that the North was only able to abolish slavery because they made money off of the labor of the South, so it seems a reasonable argument (it's also well-documented that racism was more violent in the North than the South, but that's a separate issue). It is important to note that you didn't even attempt to refute his point, you just mock it.

5. While America deserves no unique blame for the existence of slavery, the United States merits special credit for its rapid abolition. Dumbest. Statement. Ever.

Again, no attempt to refute. Just mockery of a valid point: the US abolished slavery very quickly - our War of Independence started in 1775; the Emancipation Proclamation was in 1863. That's a little over 100 years of slavery in 'America'.

6. There is no reason to believe that today’s African Americans would be better off if their ancestors had remained behind in Africa. "Boy, we sure edumacated those savages! Theys so much happier now they are christian americans! USA! USA!

And again no refutation of a valid point. Just mockery. The fact that you got a "well done" for your childish responses is yet another indicator of the low level of intelligence on this site.

Slavery is over and done with, and our country was no more evil or pernicious in its employ than any other country in the world. Coincidentally, the same statement applies to the whole 'Native American' issue, too. The only reason you make it a big issue is it gives you another reason to talk crap about the USA.

A quick point:

Not only was the USA one of the last "modern" nations to outlaw slavery, we were the only major industrialized nation to fight a civil war over it- at a cost of 500,000 lives.

Growing up in Chicago, I have only recently discovered that everything I learned about "the Civil War" was nothing more than pro-Federalism propaganda.

A wonderful book for those interested in challenging their own prejudices:

"Lincoln Takes Command" by Tilley.

http://www.amazon.com/Lincoln-Takes-Command-John-Tilley/dp/0931709032/ref=sr11/104-6356369-5270356?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1191444058&sr=8-1

Michael Medved could be the poster child for retroactive abortions.

This guys 15 minutes are way gone, it's time for people to stop quoting or writing about his crap until the memories are gone.

Kristenz: I'm not sure if you didn't catch my sarcasm or I'm not catching yours.

Since T4T Is too dumb to see that my mockery is based in what I thought was widely known facts, lets spell this out in no uncertain terms....

He's clearly making a point about the fact that when people talk about slavery, they make a special case of talking about it in America. Thus, this is a valid point.

All of Europe and Canada abolised slavery before the United States did. And slavery was abolished 1813 in Argentina, 1821 Columbia, Venzuela and Ecuador, 1823 Chile, 1829 Mexico, 1851 Peru.

That's why it's the Dumbest. Statement. Ever.

I respect the intelligence of the people on the site to know history and facts, that's why I don't have to point out specifics to prove why this arguement is so misleading and retarded. You are a troll and I shouldn't have wasted my time in responding to this.

Coming up... T4T says "holocaust WASN'T that bad, in reality..." to be a contrarian asshole.

Grr. Proofread...

what I thought WERE widely known facts

LOL

Since T4T Is too dumb

There is way too much of this type of personal attack going on. Here is how you say the above and not run afoul of the rules.

Since TFT's arugment is too dumb, a fine point perhaps but one I'd like to see adopted.

Since TFT's arugment is too dumb, a fine point perhaps but one I'd like to see adopted.

I originally had "since T4T has not been educated on the subject", but changed it to "dumb", because T4T is known for his trolling comments, and it frustrates me sometimes, I apologize.

An interesting Satire piece I heard of today that pertains to the arguement, written in 1792.

http://www.purr.demon.co.uk/jack/Politics/sharks.html

I'll be sure to avoid personal attacks in the future, sorry again norm.