Links With Your Coffee - Monday
- On Torture and American Values - New York Times
Once upon a time, it was the United States that urged all nations to obey the letter and the spirit of international treaties and protect human rights and liberties. American leaders denounced secret prisons where people were held without charges, tortured and killed. And the people in much of the world, if not their governments, respected the United States for its values.
The Bush administration has dishonored that history and squandered that respect. As an article on this newspaper’s front page last week laid out in disturbing detail, President Bush and his aides have not only condoned torture and abuse at secret prisons, but they have conducted a systematic campaign to mislead Congress, the American people and the world about those policies. - A Muse Unplugged - New York Times
At the height of his bardic powers, Allen Ginsberg could terrify the authorities with the mere utterance of the syllable “om” as he led street throngs of citizens protesting the Vietnam War. Ginsberg reigned as the raucous poet of American hippiedom and as a literary pioneer whose freewheeling masterwork “Howl” prevailed against government censorship in a landmark obscenity trial 50 years ago.
Altogether now Fuck the FCC
It is with a queasy feeling of history in retreat that poetry lovers discover that WBAI, long the radio flagship of cocky resistance to government excess, decided last week that it couldn’t risk a 50th anniversary broadcast of the late poet’s recording of “Howl.” The station retreated out of fear that the Federal Communications Commission would levy large obscenity fines that might bankrupt the small-budget station. - THE TORTURE ADVICE COLUMN, by ‘DEVIL’S ADVOCATE’
- Cartoonists take on Justice Department
- Anecdotal Evidence: `A Great Guy'
Comments
Happy Columbus Day!
From the torture article:
"Once upon a time, it was the United States that urged all nations to obey the letter and the spirit of international treaties and protect human rights and liberties. American leaders denounced secret prisons where people were held without charges, tortured and killed. And the people in much of the world, if not their governments, respected the United States for its values. "
I hear this sentiment an awful lot. Frankly, and I know I'm going to cause something of a stir here, I think it's almost self evident that torture is not only justified, it can be a moral obligation. What do you think?
I wrote above:
I think it's almost self evident that torture is not only justified, it can be a moral obligation. What do you think?
Shit. Sorry guys. I meant to write:
I think it's almost self evident that torture is not only *sometimes justified, it can be a moral obligation. What do you think
I think it's almost self evident that torture is not only *sometimes justified, it can be a moral obligation. What do you think?
I think you are almost completely wrong. The "sometimes" you are referring to occur 99.99% of the time in the TV series "24" and the remaining occasions when torture might exceedingly rare. Tou are probably referring to the "ticking time bomb" scenario - which Jack Bauer faces several times a season and which almost never has anything to do with the circumstances under which torture is actually practiced.
This is an issue that has been discussed on OGM before.
See, for example:
http://onegoodmove.org/1gm/1gmarchive/2006/10/jackbauerjust.html
http://onegoodmove.org/1gm/1gmarchive/2006/09/republicans_tor.html
Jeez - I should proofread more or learn to type better:
...remaining occasions when torture might be justified are exceedingly rare. You....
I guess I have a bit of a different take on this than Chan. Here's the letter I just sent of to the NYT after reading that article cited by Norm:
Dear New York Times:
"Once upon a time..." So begins the Oct. 8 Times editorial ("On Torture and American Values"). How appropriate that the editorial staff chose these words, the cliched first line of the fairy tale! What follows is pure fantasy: "Once upon a time...American leaders denounced secret prisons where people were held without charges, tortured and killed." When was this time? Earlier this century, during our well-documented support of Latin American dictators, as they tortured and killed countless thousands with US knowledge, design and support? Perhaps during the 18th and 19th century, as "American leaders" were busy exterminating natives in this country? Yes, the recent revelations of US torture of prisoners held in secret throughout the planet are appalling. But if we are (to paraphrase Casablanca) "shocked! shocked to find out that torturing is going on in here!", then we are condemned to repeat such crimes against humanity for years to come.
Okay Tim. Thanks for the links. Since this subject has been discussed here before I see no reason to bore everyone by dredging it up again.
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