pusillanimous what a wonderful new word.

yeah, its like wimp-squared.

Mr. Comey told colleagues at the department that they would all be “ashamed” when the world eventually learned of it

At one testy 2004 White House meeting, when Mr. Comey stated that “no lawyer” would endorse Mr. Yoo’s justification for the N.S.A. program, Mr. Addington demurred, saying he was a lawyer and found it convincing. Mr. Comey shot back: “No good lawyer,” according to someone present.

Naturally, he resigned - he just didn't fit in with the thugs. When it comes to the Bush Justice appointees, Comey's prediction that they would be “ashamed” when the world eventually learned of their torture program obviously doesn't apply - they are literally shameless. The most one could expect would be feigned embarrassment.

Norm effectively proving that when you have no argument, bigger words don't help.

So 'head slapping' and 'cold temperatures' are torture now? Guess every kid with a big brother who grew up in Minnesota was 'tortured' then. Maybe you should realize the type of enemy we're fighting, and that the "ask politely" method of interrogation doesn't work.

So 'head slapping' and 'cold temperatures' are torture now? Guess every kid with a big brother who grew up in Minnesota was 'tortured' then.

Was it intentional that you left out simulated drowning? Torture is an Infliction of severe physical pain as a means of punishment or coercion. The quality of the arguments you make are pathetic. You know it and most reading this blog know it. Parse the fucking words all you want, it was torture, it is torture, and you should be ashamed of your tacit support for torture. Shame on you.

You go Norm, say it like it is!

Teabagged dude doesn't get it...

Let's go waterboarding USA

T4t left out water boarding, yes, but that's not the only problem with what he said.

The nature of the head slapping and FRIGID temperatures endured by these prisoners of war are no where near what some kid who grew up in Minnesota experienced from his brother. This is a disingenuous and ridiculous statement.

If any of our own soldiers were subjected to water boarding, head slapping or hours of frigid temperatures, we would be outraged, and rightly so.

It is mind boggling that so many Americans such as T4t have sunk so low as to find excuses for legitimizing the use of torture. What is happening to our country that so many Americans have lost any sense of decency?? This practice has ruined the reputation of the U.S. around the world.

Furthermore, both head slapping and frigid temperatures violate the Geneva Convention

To this end the following acts are and shall remain prohibited at any time and in any place whatsoever with respect to the above-mentioned persons:

(a) Violence to life and person, in particular murder of all kinds, mutilation, cruel treatment and torture;

(b) Taking of hostages;

(c) Outrages upon personal dignity, in particular, humiliating and degrading treatment;

Was it intentional that you left out simulated drowning?

Yes. There are several reasons.

First, because it is an outlier that is lumped in with a bunch of relatively innocuous interrogation methods (the back-of-the-head slap has been used by police for ages, and they frequently play with room temperatures to make suspects uncomfortable as well). The intent of this is obvious: to tar every form of physical interrogation with the misnomer of "torture".

Second, because "simulated drowning" isn't explained clearly enough to know what it is. Do they mean waterboarding? If so, has that issue not already been addressed more times than we can count?

Third, because regardless of how cruel a technique can be described, that doesn't mean it has no utility.

Fourth, these are allegations.

Torture is an Infliction of severe physical pain as a means of punishment or coercion.

Obviously what we are disagreeing about is the term 'severe'. You think a slap on the back of the head and a cold room qualifies. So I guess you think spanking your kids is torture, too?

Parse the fucking words all you want, it was torture, it is torture, and you should be ashamed of your tacit support for torture.

All that energy climbing up on your soapbox, you didn't have enough for a full argument, so you lumped it all together.

First, we don't know that it "is torture". This is an allegation which our government denies.

Second, you are continuing to lump relatively innocuous physical duress in with other, more severe methods, which is simply dishonest.

Third, I'm still not clear why I should be 'ashamed' of the use of physical or psychological pressure on prisoners of war or enemy combatants. Because it's not nice? I have bad news for you: "nice" has never won a war.

Shame on you.

The interesting thing about the 'shame on you' parting shot is that in order for it to matter, your target has to have respect for you.

The true shame falls on you and people like you who fall all over yourselves sympathizing with our enemy, while simultaneously looking for the smallest hint of possible wrongdoing to condemn your own.

If any of our own soldiers were subjected to water boarding, head slapping or hours of frigid temperatures, we would be outraged, and rightly so.

That's a meaningless statement. It's like saying if the prisoners broke out of jail and locked you in a 6x6 cell, you'd be outraged! There's no productive conclusion to be reached. Simple reversal is for simple people. The real world is far more complex than that.

What is happening to our country that so many Americans have lost any sense of decency??

Absolutely nothing. You are aware that we won WWII partially by firebombing civilian populations in Germany, such as Dresden, and by dropping two nuclear bombs on major Japanese cities, right?

What you're trying to do is hold up events that occur during warfare and judge them by civilian standards. It simply doesn't hold water - this is why the military has its own justice system, by the way.

Furthermore, both head slapping and frigid temperatures violate the Geneva Convention

They also violate Emily Post's etiquette rules, both of which share about the same level of pertinence. The rules of the Geneva Convention dictate 'nice' warfare, and it has been standard practice throughout their existence to deviate from these rules.

No matter how much you want to exaggerate and overstate this issue, the fact remains that prisoners we interrogate may be made uncomfortable. Prisoners they capture lose their fucking head.

It's taken a while but I've finally grown tired of the lack of cogent arguments coming from you, and of the constant inane interruptions to the discussions you insure. Your comments have become not much more than the kind of crap one needs to carefully step around. Make your last comment and then consider yourself no longer welcome to comment at onegoodmove.

...it has been standard practice throughout their existence to deviate from these rules.

Really? When, tough guy?

I will point out one huge hole in you nice little philosophy but don't flatter yourself you didn't make anything that resembled an intelligent post.

Jack Bauer does not exist and the techniques used in 24 do not work in real life so your moronic comment:

"Third, because regardless of how cruel a technique can be described, that doesn't mean it has no utility."

shows how little you know about the subject and are just talking shit.

Talk to people who do this in real life before you pretend to know what you are talking about. After they slap the shit out of you for being such a moron let us know what you learned.

Actually, asking nicely has proven to be an exceptionally effective interrogation technique where torture almost always fails. If cowards like Rush Limbaugh and Teabagger had actually served in our military they would have been taught this. Instead, they base their post 9/11 tough guy stance on a retarded television series (24).

We are either better than they are or we aren't. Just like with Venezuela: we either support democracy or we don't. We are either a force for good in the world or we aren't.

TeaForTheTillerman is what is wrong with the whole US system.

Justifying torture. Until you have actually experienced torture and its effects you are not in a position to say it is justified. Especially when a lot of the people being tortured are never charged of any crime and are jailed for 2+ years.

As leftbanker points out that torture for the most part doesn't get you the truth. It gets you want you want as an answer.

I recommend you read up on Internment in Northern Ireland. It shares a lot of parallels that is happening in the USA. Basically people were rounded up because they shared similar name as a terrorist or they were related. They were tortured in much the same way as described above. People died, others mentally damaged to the point where they couldn't return to society.

These were innocent people who did no wrong except to be Catholic. That lead to around 30 years of terrorism from the IRA and Loyalists.

I'd also like to hear your citations of Geneva convention being ignored as a general rule.

What kind of discussion can be had without dissenting opinion?

Norm: Bush is a terrible president, and is guilty of anything anybody I like accuses him of.

Jo Ann: Oui Oui! I agree!

Leftbanker: Me too! If it weren't for him and his ilk, we'd be just like Belgium or Spain.

Shano: Kerry would, have been, a perfect, president!

Willey: If I was president, nothing bad would ever happen!

Dzwonka: Fuck yeah!

Tim: Scientifically speaking, Norm, you are correct.

KevinR: I have a college professor who has stated this is the case. It must be true.

Johnathan Becker: i concur blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah my fingers hurt but i'll keep on typing anyway.

ThomasMcCay: You should move to Canada!

Anonymous: I'm going to vote for Ron Paul!

Let me know if that is what you consider a worthwhile discussion Norm, and I'll stop commenting too. Sorry I couldn't include all the regulars here. Please don't be offended if you were left out.

Willey: If I was president, nothing bad would ever happen!

Damn Straight! :P

I agree Syn, a discussion needs both sides to be effective. I hardly think we all agree with each other (see the discussion about the Koran in the Toilet, or the Jena case). I appreciate your point of view Syn, usually dissenting. I've found myself reevaluating many postions due to the information you give. That being said, T4T is constantly attacking people with "anti-american", "anti-troop", "bush-bashing", consistantly ignoring the information provided in the link, with no real arguements for the other point of view. (I believe this is the Bill O'Reilly Debating technique)

This, in my world, is the definintion of a forum troll, not a dissenting opinion.

Syn,

You don't need permission to stop commenting. You see how easy it is intentionally misinterpret what you were trying to say. There are no commentors here that have not made off-topic or blatantly stupid remarks. Those like T however are either incredibly stupid or just trolls and enjoy fucking with people. Worthwhile conversation with them is not even possible.

sygas:

While you are writing thumbnail sketches of everyone, how about doing one for your own views. I'd love to see that. I can take a stab at it; tell me if I’m warm.

You are some sort of Christian, post 9/11 conservative, pro war although never served and don't plan on having the kids sign up either, middle class but one lotto ticket away from Beverly Hills (and one hospital stay away from bankruptcy), anti-government (except the defense sector whose budget is never too big), pro private sector no matter how criminal their actions, think America is the greatest country on earth but don’t know much about any place other than red state God’s country, don’t trust the liberal media but consent to being force-fed complete shit by right-wing think tanks and Fox News…should I keep going?

please do

Syngas,

If you don't like this blog, then why do you spend so much time here? There are plenty of other blogs that you could participate in that you might like better, no?

And ThomasMcCAy did move to Canada.

Jo Ann,

I do like this blog! What did I say that made you think I don't? I read other blogs too, but rarely comment because agreeing with 90% of the other readers is boring to me.

Do you think either of us would have learned much about Civil War politics if we had not had a little battle of our own? Tell me you would have preferred I say 'Boy, John Stewart really schooled Bolton - what a dweeb! Bush Sucks!'

I'm aware ThomasMcCay moved to Canada - I was speaking in first person.

Oh, TeaForTheTillerman, you macho man, you.

Funny how all the pro-war, pro-torture dingbagts out there, like our most repugnant troll here, TeaForTheTillerman, have never served in uniform. Such brave moral warriors they are, these chickenhawks.

Tell you what, TeaForTheTillerman: I'll subject you to water boarding, stress positions, and all the other repugnant things you jack off to and think are A-OK for America to inflict on others, and we'll see how long before you're crying like a baby and shitting yourself and begging to have it all stopped.

I am sure you just LOVVVE America, but personally I would hate this country if a majority of people think like little cowardly dipshits like you.

You're not even tough enough or courageous enough to be fascists. That would require the kind of sweat, toil, and sacrifice you little ninnies could never muster if you tried. You're all just delusional creeps far too enamored with your own pasty-faced opinions and cowardly "moral" positions.

Isn’t this just a sad state of affair for this country, when our so-called most "brave" pro-war advocates are really loudmouthed poop stains who are no closer to the war than the anti-war liberals they deride so sneeringly?

Syngas, I like your style.

Hi Syngas!

You're right. I did learn a lot from our little battle.

Your comment that I was reacting to seemed to be a tad bit snarky and that's why I reacted like i did,.