Have to admit I both agree and disagree. While I certainly detest religious fundamentalism and the frequent attempts by religious people to indoctrinate others to their beliefs, as well as excuse themselves from criticism, I also don't see the point in generalising in the manner, which seems to be done here. You could pretty much transfer a lot of what was said to pertain to various ethnic races instead. Ie "Black People are ghetto-banging murderers and I wish they'd grow a brain and think for themselves instead of constantly relenting to peer pressure and gang violence". People would likely have been offended by that as well, so in terms of offense due to generalisation I don't think religion has a free pass.

It's not that I'm offended. Believe me, that'd take quite a lot more. I just don't find it very constructive when there are so many better --and in my opinion reasonable, arguments to be made against religion.

"[Islam is a religion that is]...full of itself, thinks it knows all the answers..."

That describes most forms of theism as far as I can tell; not just Islam. How else could you describe someone who claims to know that the universe was created by a Great Alpha Male In The Sky for the primary purpose of serving as the backdrop for human activities, that the Alpha Male In the Sky is obsessively preoccupied with the minutiae of human behaviors, and moreover that 'He' commands us to behave in ways that are suspiciously reminiscent of the prevailing cultural norms of the theist's society?

poor guy, he just got a fatwa in his ass... lol

I agree with this rather well spoken chap. I find muslim fundamentalists more frightening than any other kind. The jehovas witnesses may be annoying but they wont advocate your murder (far as I know).

Though if I may pick a nit, when he says that religon was always pretty dormant in the UK he must have forgotten about the many hundreds of people savagely murdered in Northern Ireland on religous grounds, to this day. Check out parts of Scotland too for sectarian strife between christians. No muslims involved in either case.

I agree with this rather well spoken chap. I find muslim fundamentalists more frightening than any other kind. The jehovas witnesses may be annoying but they wont advocate your murder (far as I know).

Though if I may pick a nit, when he says that religon was always pretty dormant in the UK he must have forgotten about the many hundreds of people savagely murdered in Northern Ireland on religous grounds, to this day. Check out parts of Scotland too for sectarian strife between christians. No muslims involved in either case.

Dang. Sorry for double. I even refreshed a couple times to check the first hadnt appeared. Apologies. :(

I have to agree with the commentator that Islam is the least tolerant of the major religions, indeed, any religion. This is not a recent development. There is no country in the world where Islam dominates that life for the adherents of other religions is not made a misery. Ask the Ba'hai or the worlds' few remaining Zoarastrians how life in Iran has been going. The specific injunctions contained in the Koran regarding allowable abuse of People of the Book, ie Christians and Jews, are bad enough but for those of other beliefs, which includes pretty much everyone else on the planet who hasn't declared themselves an Atheist, the penalty is death. Oh yeah. Don't tell anyone in Islamic countries if you are an Atheist. You probably won't enjoy being stoned. I have always found it ironic that my country, Canada, has prosecuted people and deported them for indulging in holocaust denial. Now those people may be complete nutjobs but none of them has been accused in open court of urging the death of their fellow citizens. The Koran does. A more perfect example of hate literature could hardly be found. Well, except for, possibly, the bible.

muslim fundamentalists Visit Turkey, Morocco, Lebannon or any other not very fucked up muslim country and you'll see in the same street women covered, completly covered and all shades in between. What I mean is that the world is huge and there all kinds of people and maybe what we don't realize is that the underline meaning of AlQaeda, Turkey making its way into the EU and the increase of muslim population in western countries is "muslim cultural revolution". I think that the muslim world is changing and adapting fast to an globalized world but that change (and the undeniable fact that every muslim country has been looted and humiliated by the west as a colony) promotes it's fare share of wackos, fundamentalists, nationalists and holly war advocators. My point, patience, keep the peaceful tough critique and maybe one day we'll see a Southpark made by muslims poking Mahoma. God bless Southpark.

Usually I don't like these youtube sermons of people liking to hear themselves talk. But this was rather neat. And he sure can talk.

Sorry Fox, but I'm not so sure what he was generalizing about. Sounded to me like he was roundly criticizing the advocates of a UK hate speech law, some of the loudest advocating coming from Hizb ut-Tahrir, a group who themselves make highly highly controversial stances on terrorism and the instituting of an Islamic state. Of all the individuals I know that have seen this video, none were under the impression that this guy was attacking all Muslims, it was clearly directed at a certain group of Muslims, since he prefaced this whole rant by identifying the people he had issue with, the one's who want to make an offense to Islam a crime. He, like most of us, made a critique without naming every single human exemption that exists in the billion or so in the Muslim world who might agree that a law that criminalize offending Islam is unreasonable (assuming such an individual exists). If this were truly some generalized rant and if he truly felt Muslims were all bloody irrational murderers, he wouldn't have made the statement that in the future, hopefully, intelligent Muslims will look back at jihadism as an embarrassment.

Despite making many good points which I agree with, I still ended up angry at the end of his blog.

You can't win an argument by name calling. Telling an entire religion they have shit for brains won't win you any intelligence contests.

This is Pat Condell. He's brilliant. This clip should stand on its own, but in our politically correct world, I feel compelled to point out this guy takes on Christianity -- and religion in general -- with every bit as much fervor as he does here, with Islam.

The first clip I saw of his, was about "Why does religion deserve respect?" -- and the quote I loved the most was about how respect is earned... And that religion gets all the respect it has earned -- in the sense that if it was a respectable, sensible, rational thing, it would be rolling around in respect, like televangelists roll around in other people's money... That was priceless. I mean, I made a mental note to make use of it, next time I encounter a crucifix-junkie.

But I like this one too: "I don't want to be murdered by some hysterical, self-righteous, carpet chewing, book burning muppet with shit for brains." Brilliant.

Though if I may pick a nit, when he says that religon was always pretty dormant in the UK he must have forgotten about the many hundreds of people savagely murdered in Northern Ireland on religous grounds... -- Mick

Pointing out people's spelling mistakes is bad form -- except in cases when someone does so, while making mistakes of their own. So, well -- Northern Ireland is not part of the UK. I'm just pointing this out for your own edumacation -- and for the benefit of anyone who might read your comment, and believe that you know what you're talking about...

Because religion has definitely been dormant in the UK.

... (and the undeniable fact that every muslim country has been looted and humiliated by the west as a colony) promotes it's fare share of wackos, fundamentalists, nationalists and holly war advocators. -- Dani R

What country, or ethnic or religious group has NOT been looted and humiliated? Gimme a break.

You seen any native American Indian suicide bombers? Aboriginal Australians? Any Jews? Any Argentinians going kaboom because of the Falklands? Any Norwegians strapping explosives to their bodies and heading to Denmark or Sweden because their country was humiliated and looted for more than half a millennium?

The truth is, no group has humiliated or looted the Muslim world more than Muslims themselves.

The Muslim world is like a spoiled, rich brat: privileged through no effort of their own, whose megalomaniac sense of entitlement is only dwarfed by their delusions of their own importance and relevance.

The current state of Islam = Paris Hilton + Charlie Manson.

Dzwonka, Where did you get the idea that Northern Ireland is not part of the UK?

The United Kingdom is made up of England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland

Ummm Jessica... the need for, and freedom to, call any and all religious people "shit for brains" is precisely what he is talking about. And yes, it's not an intelligence contest. It's about the need for peace in the world, just as he said.

this guy is an idiot.

he incorrectly states that "here in the uk, religion was always pretty dormant until muslims came along, burning books, and passing death sentences..."

yeah, because NO ONE before the muslims ever engaged in state-propaganda, violence and injustice. lol.

he then continues his uninformed diatribe with [muslims being] "people who have made no attempt to think for themselves."

anyone familiar with the contributions of arab and muslim thinkers to western philosophy, math and science, or to the Enlightenment, would recognize the factual errors in this guy's rant.

you guys would benefit from reading some Edward Said ("orientalism") and Mark Kurlanksy (esp kurlansky's "nonviolence").

this idiot repeats the propaganda that suicide bombers are motivated by the promise of slutty virgins waiting in heaven, instead of unemployment, powerlessness in the face of an international plundering bully (the US), violence on a scale and proximity unimaginable within our safe borders (as much as we hurt for the loss of miners, or campus shooting victims, thousands of muslims are dying violently every week, and this gets no coverage).

on the status of women...

again, the guy in the video is blind toward the mistreatment of women in the west. he criticizes british muslim women who wear the hijab as being "mentally ill." he sympathizes with women living in countries who are governed by "primitive pigs whose only achievement in life is to be born with a penis in one hand, and a koran in the other." you could replace "koran" with "beer" and this primitive society would be none other than our wonderfully free and egalitarian USA, whose original constitution denied women suffrage, and where women are portrayed as sex objects.

the last bit, about islam being self-absorbed, is ironic. the presenter maintained a self-congratulatory grin throughout the entire clip. he needs to get the fuck over himself, and go read instead of spouting his uninformed opinion.

Dzwonka, Where did you get the idea that Northern Ireland is not part of the UK? The United Kingdom is made up of England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland -- Jo Ann

You're right -- I was wrong. As much as I feel a fool for you correcting me, I'm grateful that you did so, because I've learned something. Of course, I should already have known this, before voicing my opinion on the subject. Mud on my face, as they say...

To answer your question, I believed that the UK was comprised of England and Scotland (they were ruled by kings/queens when they were united), and that Britain was the term used for the UK plus the rest...

All that being said, I think even the smartest of people make mistakes... But to become a suicide bomber -- or to to endorse or facilitate one -- is a shit-fer-brains kinda thing to do.

the myth of virgins and grapes

http://www.commondreams.org/views04/0805-02.htm

Oh .... ho ... ho ...

Norm, this is what happens when you fall into the trap of agreeing too much with bigots like Christopher Hitchens and Ayaan Hirsi Ali, who hide their Islamophobia behind rhetoric that is tantamount to saying that "all religions are bad, but Islam is worse than others" and simplistic and essentializing arguments such as "every time we complain, Islam is (literally) up in arms".

I have SO MUCH to say about this video, and will put in another comment-post in a few hours. For now, lets me just say that:

1. The world as a whole needs to fear Christianity much more than it needs to fear Islam.

2. Christianity and the West have always (or atleast over the past 300-400 years) exercized their power and domination in ways that are indirect and that appear "civilized". This is continuing till today, and is the reason people like Hitchens can justify moving away from Britain to the United States and make statements along the lines of "even though the United States is full of religious freaks (read Christians) they are much more benign and harmless than the bloodthirsty murders (read Muslims) back in Britain.

3. With this point above in mind, the United States can be considered as being in the forefront of a present day Christian crusade.

4. You might be a secular person who thinks you live in a secular country or wishes this was a secular country, and put stickers that proclaim "Not in my name" on your cars, but, alas, this war is being fought, like it or not, in your name. The Christian right that voted your Christian President into power does not think this country is a secular country, and does not think this war is to spread democracy, or take out a dictator, or for oil or strategic control of the Middle East. For them this is a religious war, and their President is George the Lionheart who will bring to an end the barbaric hoard that is loominng from the East. Their rhetoric of "better there than here" and "if it wasn't for this war they'd have overrun our country already" is precisely a call to a crusade. This call is hidden, as always with the West, in indirect and cloaked language. The treat of "WMDs" was/is triple-speak symbolism for the "Muslim menace". This war, for them, is not a war to save Western secularism, for them this war is to protect Western Christianity. Using phrases like "our freedom and democracy" and "our way of life" might not be religious in nature for the secularists, but it is for the Christians who voted Bush into power.

5. When the Christian world gets offended, they send in "secular" and "official" troops for "secular" reasons to do their dirty work. The Muslims at this time have no such troops, and so must do their protesting themselves, and as "terrorists".

Ok I'm raging right now, and I'll have a disection of the actual video in my next set of comments.

All I can say is, don't let the Machiavellis out-think you. The problems of fundamentalist religion are in ALL religions, not more in some and less in others, no matter how much they are potrayed that way.

More soon ...

Muslims are terrible etc...

However the Christian US and British forces just killed 300,000+ people in the middle east which is far worse than anything any muslims have done. (A)

It seems to me then that a vast amount of muslim is occurring today, with only a small amount said about the Christians. The muslim bashing therefore seems racist.

Islam is a religion, not a race so criticising it does not make you racist it just makes you sensible.

Pointing out people's spelling mistakes is bad form -- except in cases when someone does so, while making mistakes of their own. So, well -- Northern Ireland is not part of the UK. I'm just pointing this out for your own edumacation -- and for the benefit of anyone who might read your comment, and believe that you know what you're talking about...Because religion has definitely been dormant in the UK.

So you’re clear then that I do know what I was talking about? Considering I have lived and worked in northern Ireland, you cant fail to notice it is in the U.K. Perhaps you can also point out where I took him to task for his spelling mistakes in a video?

Religion has definitely not been dormant in the U.K., the only thing on that video I recall that I disagree with. You don’t have to look back at wars between catholics and protestant factions determined to make the country one religion or the other. There are plenty of examples from the last 50 years.

Attempting to use markdown, lets see what happens ;o)

As with many others, my feelings are "why focus on Islam?" Isn't the actual problem (religious) fundamentalism/authoritarianism, and the unthinking/fearful submission people give to it? In particular, shouldn't we be more concerned with this problem within our own borders (which is mostly Christian) before focusing on other countries in this regard? It's better for us to develop ourselves and become an exemplar of religious tolerance/respect (including the right to be agnostic/atheist) that can serve as a role model, rather than for us to criticize others for the kinds of evil that still exists in our society, even if it is exists here only on a smaller scale (and the difference that exists can be attributed to our relative prosperity rather than some superiority of Christianity).

I can't believe that someone in the UK would call religion dormant after all the decades of violence in Northern Ireland.

Sorry Norm, you lost me with this guy. He's not anti-theist, he's an anti-islamic bigot. He extrapolates from the edge cases to the religion as a whole.

I don't know how it is in the UK, but most of the Muslims in the US are peaceful people who just want to practice their religion quietly. They're a heck of a lot less violent then many of the southern Baptists.

Condemn the people who promote violence and oppression, yes. But I won't condemn people who quietly practice their faith and who believe others have the right to practice their's.

teh man makes some valid general points, but they can be said of all religious dogma.

I dont consider Islam any worse or better than christiandom and its many sects, the only difference between them is that the christians have had several centuries since the Enlightenment to rethink many of their possitions, that and science and the secular state pretty much destroyed all church authority over national rule in the west. (granted with some exceptions) In contrast Islam is a religion of the desert, it never had an Enlightenment, it never had the seperation of church and state that the west has expereinced for quite a few centuries now. The result is a religion that is more fundamentalist in its beliefs and more political. But is it fundamentally different from christianity? I dont think so, its just more effective right now as a tool of terror because of the beforementioned differences in its development.

Norm - please please please stop linkjacking.

It would be courteous to the author, and to your users, if you actually linked to the original page that the author uploaded his video to.

You're depriving us all from properly discussing this video by forcing us to use your comment form.

Anyway, I think that this guy is spot on.

"I can't believe that someone in the UK would call religion dormant after all the decades of violence in Northern Ireland."

I think he probably means Great Britain: we're mostly atheists now.

People may say that they are christian, but that is not to say that they believe in god - it's probably more about an issue of identity and referencing values.

I am not aware of any fundamentalist christians here and church attendances are dwindling.

Many muslims, on the other hand, have a much more literal interpretation of the koran. For example, in the UK a majority of young muslim men are in favour of a sharia state!

The proportion of their parents generation who want this is much lower.

This is bad.

There must be many times more muslims that believe in one global muslim state and the subjugation of non-muslims than there are fundamentalist christians.

Religious itself depends on irrational thought - so by definition its followers must be non-thinkers.

Historical contributions of knowledge by muslims or christians or whomever should not give their respective religions any credit for their work.

Those scientists and philosophers may not have been religious in private at all.

"here in the uk religion was always pretty dormant"

Horse pucky. May his family be forced to build a church.

So you’re clear then that I do know what I was talking about? Considering I have lived and worked in northern Ireland, you cant fail to notice it is in the U.K. Perhaps you can also point out where I took him to task for his spelling mistakes in a video? Religion has definitely not been dormant in the U.K. -- Mick

I've visited Northern Ireland, but have never lived there. I have lived in Ireland -- and there aren't too many people there who consider Ulster to be part of the UK -- and I'm sure that if you've lived in the north, you've seen similar notions there too.

But that's hardly the point here. I was wrong, as to whether Northern Ireland was considered a part of the UK. If you wanna beat me up a bit more about that, that's cool -- I deserve it. I learned something, from Jo Anne's comment, and I've got no chip on my shoulder about things like that.

But I think the subject of this thread is about Islam, though.

And having lived in England, as well as Ireland, I'd say that religion was very much a dormant thing -- comparatively speaking -- until some shit-fer-brains blew up one of my favorite bookstores because they carried Salman Rushdie's Satanic Verses...

The rest of you -- this guy isn't focusing on Islam. He is an atheist. He disses Christianity all the time.

I have to agree with the commentator that Islam is the least tolerant of the major religions, indeed, any religion. This is not a recent development. There is no country in the world where Islam dominates that life for the adherents of other religions is not made a misery. Ask the Ba'hai or the worlds' few remaining Zoarastrians how life in Iran has been going. The specific injunctions contained in the Koran regarding allowable abuse of People of the Book, ie Christians and Jews, are bad enough but for those of other beliefs, which includes pretty much everyone else on the planet who hasn't declared themselves an Atheist, the penalty is death. Oh yeah. Don't tell anyone in Islamic countries if you are an Atheist. You probably won't enjoy being stoned. I have always found it ironic that my country, Canada, has prosecuted people and deported them for indulging in holocaust denial. Now those people may be complete nutjobs but none of them has been accused in open court of urging the death of their fellow citizens. The Koran does. A more perfect example of hate literature could hardly be found. Well, except for, possibly, the bible.

I guess "racist" is the wrong word, since it is a belief, rather than a racial identity, that he's generalizing about. But it's essentially the same behavior as racism, to my eyes. I wonder how many muslims he actually knows? My guess is very few, if any. Stereotypical attitudes like this have a hard time surviving actual individual contact with "the enemy".

I think the number of people springing to Islam's defense on these comments and lambasting Christianity instead shows just how correct this guy is. For god's sake, I hate this conciliatory attitude so many people have toward Islam when they don't hesitate to say Christianity is the scourge of the world.

Vivek, if you really think western women are not all that better off, get out. Go live in Tehran and see how that assertion of yours pans out. Women are still discriminated against in the west, yes, but things have gotten so much better for them in the last century- the last few decades, even! Women are empowered like never before and all you can find to do is bitch about it. Show some respect for feminism and its accomplishments.

rf: "Muslims are terrible etc...

However the Christian US and British forces just killed 300,000+ people in the middle east which is far worse than anything any muslims have done."

Actually muslims have killed hundreds of thousands in Iraq with their IEDs, armed militias, etc...

The history of that country is full of examples of ethnic/religious cleansing or at least subjugation of the minority. link

I can't believe some people are saying Christianity and Islam are just as bad.

There are many countries (including moderate ones like Malaysia) in which it is illegal to change your religion from Islam. Are there any Christian countries that make it illegal to change your religion from Christianity?

At least in the Christian countries religion is a choice.

J. Callander's argument is one that cuts both ways. Islamic sterotypes of other religions and people crumble, as he puts it, in the face of contact with the enemy. To argue that Islamic societies are tolerant of other religions is patently ridiculous. Ask the Christians in Egypt or Pakistan or Indonesia how they are being treated. In no truly civilized country is prosyletizing for your faith punishable by law,nor is apostasy punishable by death. Comparing the such ill treatment and prejudice as muslims may encounter in wertern societies to what goes on in Islamic theocracies is laughable. Only where they are not in the majority do muslims demonstrate the tolerance that they claim is the hallmark of their faith. There is an element of hope in this. Where they are exposed to other cultures they seem to understand that non-muslims are not the demons that they are taught we are in practically every mosque and madrassa outside of the western world (and a good many inside the west as well)

"this idiot repeats the propaganda that suicide bombers are motivated by the promise of slutty virgins waiting in heaven, instead of unemployment, powerlessness in the face of an international plundering bully (the US), violence on a scale and proximity unimaginable within our safe borders"

that must be the reason most of the 911 hijackers were college educated, right?

that argument is just wrong, not only regarding 911. entitled to your own opinion, but not to your own facts, remember?

listen to a talk by sam harris on youtube if you want to hear a serious discussion about that. this after all is a comedy clip and you're critisizing it for simplifying.

I sort of lost the thread after the penis and inflatable women..

Was he bashing the Bush- administration, or just americans in general? I mean, he can't see the difference between americans and stupid crackpot fucking idiotic americans. What a bloody moron.

Peter G, do we need to recount the bloody events in history where Christians have butchered, tortured, and forcibly subjugated people of other faiths--even of differing Christian faiths?

I agree with Norm: no religious dominated government is healthy, or tolerant, or open. But that goes for Christian and Judaic, as well as Islamic. The religious do not make good leaders.

Tolerant Christians -- yeah tell that to the Blacks in the south. Should we forget how Christians treated Jews in World War II? How about something more recent, such as Bosnia? Even the Buddhists, those gentle souls: In Myanmar, the dominant Buddhists persecute both Christian and Muslim, alike.

Any government where religion is a key component of how the government is run--not just a declaration of faith, or a statement of principle--is by its very nature, oppressive and corrupt.

If the man talking in this video had replaced the specific Islam with the generic "religious", I might agree. But by singling out the Muslims, he effectively gives the other religions a slide. To me, that's more dangerous than if he hadn't said anything at all.

Very good discussion here. Maybe Islam is 500 years behind Christianity, as Bill Maher suggests. Christians were acting out the same way in their time.

And one does have to take into account the fact of state terrorism when you speak of Muslim extremism, as Chomsky talks about, and gets alot of criticism for, btw.

I spent a day with a German woman who grew up in Bagdad, her father worked in the oil industry at the time. She thinks what Americans are trying to accomplish in Iraq is impossible because of the tribal structure of society.

Maybe it is the combination of Religious extremisim and culture clash that amplify the problems. Add to this mix the terrible inequity of employment opportunities, infrastructure failures, racism, etc.

Wish they would stop blowing people up, though! sheesh, if they could just do that it would help lead to self determination.

And wish we would stop trying to steal their oil with the completely unfair oil bill.

I wish more Muslims would speak on these issues.

This disproves my hypothesis that bigots don't have vaulted ceilings.

"Norm, this is what happens when you fall into the trap of agreeing too much with bigots like Christopher Hitchens and Ayaan Hirsi Ali, who hide their Islamophobia behind rhetoric that is tantamount to saying that "all religions are bad, but Islam is worse than others" and simplistic and essentializing arguments such as "every time we complain, Islam is (literally) up in arms".

"The world as a whole needs to fear Christianity much more than it needs to fear Islam."

"With this point above in mind, the United States can be considered as being in the forefront of a present day Christian crusade."

"when the Christian world gets offended, they send in "secular" and "official" troops for "secular" reasons to do their dirty work"

All of your statements are truly OUTRAGEOUS. Its fine with me if want to say Islam is just as peaceful as christianity. The bible has violence in it but does not COMMAND followers to be violent. The Koran does:

[5.64] And the Jews say: The hand of Allah is tied up! Their hands shall be shackled and they shall be cursed for what they say. Nay, both His hands are spread out, He expends as He pleases; and what has been revealed to you from your Lord will certainly make many of them increase in inordinacy and unbelief; and We have put enmity and hatred among them till the day of resurrection; whenever they kindle a fire for war Allah puts it out, and they strive to make mischief in the land; and Allah does not love the mischief-makers.

[2.191] And kill them (nonbelievers) wherever you find them, and drive them out from whence they drove you out, and persecution is severer than slaughter

003.151 We shall cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve because they ascribe unto Allah partners, for which no warrant hath been revealed. Their habitation is the Fire, and hapless the abode of the wrong-doers.

well, i give thanks and praise to the Fying Spaghetti Monster. i enjoyed this rant somewhat, but my critique would be that it is too exclusive. why is the Catholic church still allowed to operate as a tax free business in the united states, when it has been systematically protecting a network of child molesters for decades? how can the Mormons "excommunicate" a woman for divorcing her husband? what cruelty, what madness. the strange contradiction i feel is when i walk into a beautiful old Lutheran or Catholic cathedral in Europe, and hear Bach or Mozart performed on a centuries old pipe organ, I can see "God!" LOL =) Or hearing gospel music with a kick ass hammond organ player and drums and bass cookin' the roots of r&b, a jubilant choir singing the praises of Jesus in glorious harmony, in a New York or Oakland Baptist or Methodist church, i only come away feeling healed inside, and uplifted. that's got to be a good thing. i don't believe a word of the Bible, any more than i believe a word of Mark Twain. it's fiction, as are all "holy" books. and Twain is more enjoyable. not so many disembowllings and retributions and massacres and tragedy. every day we have opportunities to be kind, to ourselves and others. any time that religion helps someone do that, i can't see that as a bad thing. but unfortunately, the very loudmouthed forces of ignorance are making a big row these days. so i understand the frustration expressed in this rant, and the man is eloquent. but let us be careful that we do not oppose fundamentalism with more fundamentalism. best thing to do is have a swim, take a walk, greet your neighbor, help an old lady cross the street. the noblest traditions of all religions including Islam and Christianity, simply suggest we live up to our potenial as loving, kind beings, while we share this world together. it's rude to lump all Muslims into one pile, or to say one religion is more preposterous than the others. they are all ridiculous. the very real repression against Muslims we see much of today, is as disgraceful as any repression done in the name of Islam. repression is wrong, full stop. respect and love to all. peace.

The bible has violence in it but does not COMMAND followers to be violent.

Of course it does. What diluted Bible have you been reading?

Angry dude with a potty mouth.

Very adolescent.

The fact is, unless you mean to commit genocide, you must live on the same planet with theists.

Sometimes it's a social necessity, and a kindness, not to mock your neighbor's toupee.

Kindness, please, not name calling and ridicule.

I'm a stone-cold athiest myself.

View video 2 before posting garbage. Thank you.

yep. the bible has plenty of thou shalt bloody the heads of the blah blah whatever, it's disgusting and should be rejected as the amoral crap that it is. i still like to get down to the music though, and ancient stained glass is pretty in the sunlight. take the good bits, leave the bad. just like school. also, i must say having viewed the other clip now, the more general one about faith, i agree much more readily. what he delivers here is a proper intellectual critique of an unecessary hinderance to all of our well being. dogmatic religion really and truly is an idiot's pursuit. and i have no trouble saying that in general terms. they should at least stay out of others' affairs. live and let live, right? i like the bits of the bible that say that. but it's just another silly book and it has been given far too much attention by our species. lord of the rings or even harry potter is far more relevant to our times. ramen.

"Of course it does. What diluted Bible have you been reading?"

The violent passages in the Bible certainly do no amount to a standing order to commit violence against the rest of the world. Unlike the Koran, the Bible is a huge collection of documents written by different people at different times in different contexts, which allows for much greater interpretative freedom. The Koran, on the other hand, comes exclusively from one source: Muhammad. It is through the life of Muhammad that the Koran must be understood, as the Koran itself says. His wars and killings both reflect and inform the meaning of the Koran. Furthermore, the strict literalism of the Koran means that there is little room for interpretation when it comes to its violent injunctions. As it is through the example of Christ, the "Prince of Peace," that Christianity interprets its scriptures, so it is through the example of the warlord and despot Muhammad that Muslims understand the Koran.

Thank you Robin, for the sanity…. No doubt Vivek is one of those vaunted ethnic scholars that can deduce gender role oppression and cultural imperialism just from looking off a box of coco puffs, with enough heavy-handed interpretation anything can be re-worked to characterize you as a victim. I've heard this same crap spouted before by hardliner Asian feminists, one had commented that because women are traditionally held to be the head of the household, that she in reality was "sequestered and oppressed" to an existence within the home (read as kitchen) and because she lacked proper career opportunities and a sense of personal fulfillment it was an oppression not unlike that suffered by women of the Islamic world. Please. Stop staking claim to the victimization of women who live they type of sequestered and oppressed lives that you couldn't possibly know anything about. We're not talking about Chosun-era traditional Korean "gender-role expectations", there are no expectations of a woman in an Islamic State when what is "expected" of them is both inscribed and punishable by the state. Fear of being "characterized" as passive or finding tiresome the gentle pleas for a soft feminine refinement are probably the least of the worries of oppressed Muslim women. Being interpreted through the evil male gaze as a sexual object is not on par with actually living in a society where sexual oppression and chattlehood of women is public policy, where mistreatment is actually condoned. Yes, there is a fair amount of criticism to be made on the sexism in "western-ized" East Asia and the US, but to equate sexism and the marginalizing that comes with it with the often times unabashed brutality and sadism of a totalitarian society, is where you and I part company. I'll go read some ethnic scholarship books, you go gain a sense of proportion.

A lesson on the bible:

Forbidden:

"Thou shalt not kill (murder)." (Exodus 20:13; Deuteronomy 5:17) "...murders... they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God." (Galatians 5:21) "...no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him." (1 John 3:15) "...murderers... shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death." (Revelation 21:8) "For without [are] dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters..." (Revelation 22:15) Jesus and Paul both reiterated the Old Testament prohibition against murder:

"Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment." (Matthew 5:21) "...Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill...." (Romans 13:9) Murder is listed right alongside sins like sorcery, fornication, robbery.

"Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings..." (Galatians 5:21) "Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts." (Revelation 9:21) "...murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars..." (Revelation 21:8)

On Violence:

God destroyed the earth with a flood because of the extent violence had spread:

"...the earth was filled with violence... Then God said to Noah, 'The end of all flesh has come before Me; for the earth is filled with violence... behold, I am about to destroy them...'" (Genesis 6:13). "You have heard that it was said, 'You shall love your neighbor, and hate your enemy.' But I say to you, love your enemies, and pray for those who persecute you in order that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven..." (Matthew 5:43, 45)

The Koran is inherently different in its commands. Radical Muslims can easily point to the Koran to justify their crimes. Radical Christian's who kill will be going against the teachings of Christ.

Whoever calls Jesus "Prince of Peace" obviously never read the Gospels:

"Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace but a sword." --Matthew 10:34

Stop apologizing for Christianity. Much of the atrocities ordained in the Bible come from the mouth of Yahweh and Jesus. The fundamentalism of Islam vs Christianity isn't because of the books necessarily but because they haven't had a renaissance or an enlightment period like Christianity has that has been hammering away at its intransigence and literalism. Have we forgotten the history of Christianity already?

gotta say, i love all the "con" arguments that found themselves on the idea that this diatribe is "wrong" 'cause there are other religions that should be targeted instead/are worse at killing others/etc.

here's the deal. regardless of the summarized (and probably largely decent) character of their individual followers, they practice and advocate strongly in the defense of a system which does not staunchly or outright disavow the MURDER of people who don't practice the same system.

um. duh.

system bad.

Let's not make this into a "my Biblical passage can outdo your Biblical passage" discussion. Your example of citing the Commandments is laughable given that the God that condems killing has no qualms and even demands death be inflicted to those that, say, do not observe the Sabbath (Numbers). It's this kind of picking and choosing that occurs with the apologists of Islam that dub it a religion of peace.

Saw the second video.

He starts out good and then degenerates into, "I'm right, you're all wrong and idiots to boot".

He mixes oppressive behavior with faith. He starts out talking about he doesn't care what people believe, as long as, we presume, they don't enforce their beliefs on others. He then goes on to talking scathingly of religion in such a way that there is no debate, no tolerance for any viewpoint but his own.

No, we don't have to respect a religion, but I respect people based on how they act and what they do--not based on their religion or other cultural views. If I did respect them, I wouldn't degenerate their faith to their face. That's no different than saying, "Well, you're a Christian, therefore I won't listen to anything you say because you're a blithering idiot in your faith. Doesn't matter what else you do, what else you say--case closed."

It must be tiring to be so right, and so superior. Bah -- pendantic f**k.

I don't respect this person. There's the same level of anger in this person as exists in all the right wing fundamentalists I've ever heard speak. An inability to empathize with others is the mark of a small mind -- regardless of the view.

Frankly, I'm getting sick of the inflexible pedantics on both sides of this fence. And I'm also an atheist. But don't count me in with this man -- I want no part of him.

"Intellectually Honest" is a term used to describe actual knowledge about a matter without having to see it. (ex: I have never been to China but I have enough evidence to know that it exists w/o even going there.) A person who has not been to China who says he does not know if it exists is not being honest intellectually. Evidence is needed but not proof to know something. There is only one truth. There cannot exist multiple truths. Therefore either G-d exists or doesn't. Show me the evidence that he doesn't. I have evidence that G-d exists (not only from scriptures) and know He exists. What evidence do you have that He does not? By the way I don't want respect nor do I need it. It seems that you are intelligent (and a little emotional) but confused about truth. Are you a truth seeker? Or do you just like to bash people you think are less intelligent than yourself?

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=33c_1187358686

"Stop apologizing for Christianity. Much of the atrocities ordained in the Bible come from the mouth of Yahweh and Jesus."

The Bible never instructs the followers of Christ to kill Jews or Infidels.

THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT IN THE UNITED STATES MUST ORDER ALL MOSQUES IN THIS COUNTRY TO REMOVE PASSAGES FROM THEIR TEACHINGS THAT INSTRUCT THEM TO KILL INFIDELS OR JEWS. IF THEY DO NOT WANT TO THEN THEY SHOULD BE DEPORTED.

I have evidence that G-d exists (not only from scriptures) and know He exists.

I think your evidence is crap and not at all persuasive.

stephan, as much as i enjoy sam harris, his position on the motive behind suicide bombers seems rather ignorant. recently, in london, some physicians having brown skin color were thought to be implicated in planning bombings. was sex a motivation for them? probably not. more likely, these guys, if they were guilty at all, were acting in this way because they were in a position to do so. as physicians, enjoying the status, power, wealth, and privilege afforded to them, they could not help but feel powerless at the UK's participation in this illegal war (and its history with the people in the middle east). sam harris' other views on reincarnation, and childhood memories of past lives are certainly more disputable...

Robin, chill the fuck out. we don't disagree on the progress, however slow, that women have made in the US.

BenG,

What is this evidence you speak of? Is it something you can share with the others here or is it more abstract like a warm fuzzy feeling when you pray or something? Just curious since I've met many very religious folks and very few have said they have legitimate proof.

Thanks.

The Bible never instructs the followers of Christ to kill Jews or Infidels.

This concludes our conversation. I really have no desire to argue with someone who has absolutely no knowledge of the very thing they're defending.

I have a question for those of you who don't like the rants. Do you think it is ever appropriate to ridicule a belief, or an opinion? If so when, if not why not? I'm not talking about one on one, but rather ridiculing a religion or a political party or a philosophy or idea, but not directed at a specific individual.

"BenG,

What is this evidence you speak of? Is it something you can share with the others here or is it more abstract like a warm fuzzy feeling when you pray or something? Just curious since I've met many very religious folks and very few have said they have legitimate proof.

Thanks."

You directed your comment to the wrong person, I wasnt the one who has evidence of god, im an athiest.

Erick,

I don't know what bible you are reading. I have studied the bible in the past. I HAVE NEVER READ ANYTHING THAT SAYS YOU SHOULD KILL INFIDELS. There are many violent passages in the bible, but PLEASE POINT OUT SOME PASSAGES THAT INSTRUCT FOLLOWERS OF CHRISTIANITY TO KILL ANOBODY THAT IS NOT A CHRISTIAN.