well said.

Wow! What an excellent article! I thought this would be another boring Fourth of July, but then I read this and realized that there is at least one other person in the world that thinks the same way I do on this matter -- a World War II bombardier of all people.

There is nothing wrong with liking one's country, but there is no need to take it to extremes. Nationalism and patriotism are almost like, dare I say, a religion.

We like you Americans better when you are a bit humble, yes ... ;) /G. Sweden

Ironically the Philippines is one of two or so countries that still thinks that the US exerts a good influence on the world. I think nationalism can also do wonderful things though. If we didn't have a president so bound to war we could be extremely competitive about advancing alternative energy technologies, and nationalism would definitely help this cause. In fact, Michael Moore is using nationalism to help persuade Americans that universal health care is better by giving statistics that put us behind nations like Cuba. So it can also be a good thing.

Great article Norm.

George Orwell on nationalism: http://www.orwell.ru/library/essays/nationalism/english/e_nat

Somewhere or other Byron makes use of the French word longeur, and remarks in passing that though in England we happen not to have the word, we have the thing in considerable profusion. In the same way, there is a habit of mind which is now so widespread that it affects our thinking on nearly every subject, but which has not yet been given a name. As the nearest existing equivalent I have chosen the word ‘nationalism’, but it will be seen in a moment that I am not using it in quite the ordinary sense, if only because the emotion I am speaking about does not always attach itself to what is called a nation — that is, a single race or a geographical area. It can attach itself to a church or a class, or it may work in a merely negative sense, against something or other and without the need for any positive object of loyalty.

By ‘nationalism’ I mean first of all the habit of assuming that human beings can be classified like insects and that whole blocks of millions or tens of millions of people can be confidently labelled ‘good’ or ‘bad’(1). But secondly — and this is much more important — I mean the habit of identifying oneself with a single nation or other unit, placing it beyond good and evil and recognising no other duty than that of advancing its interests. Nationalism is not to be confused with patriotism. Both words are normally used in so vague a way that any definition is liable to be challenged, but one must draw a distinction between them, since two different and even opposing ideas are involved. By ‘patriotism’ I mean devotion to a particular place and a particular way of life, which one believes to be the best in the world but has no wish to force on other people. Patriotism is of its nature defensive, both militarily and culturally. Nationalism, on the other hand, is inseparable from the desire for power. The abiding purpose of every nationalist is to secure more power and more prestige, not for himself but for the nation or other unit in which he has chosen to sink his own individuality.

oops.. the second part should also have been italicized..

As expected, the Orwell bit was much more interesting and intelligent than the Zinn tripe.

Oh God of wine, please read Zinn's books before you pronounce him a tripe artist. A People's History of the U.S., his classic, is a book I'm using to supplement the real tripe--the crap that public schools in this nation continue to feed the minds of children about the history of their country. Zinn's historical writing is fascinating and, of course, challenging. And it stands up to fact-checking far more firmly than much of the history that has been written in our time, and certainly more than those textbooks my daughter keeps bringing home from social studies classes.

I agree, to a point, with the article. However, I hesitantly accept the use of the word "evil" to label nationalism and patriotism. This is for several reasons:

1. If a country wants to progress and prosper, then it requires nationalism, especially an underdeveloped country. Zinn mentions somthing like this, but did not make much out of it (I would not put a country like Switzerland in my list).

2. There are countries that would not have much to offer were it not for the nationalism that drives its people to progress. In developing societies, it is hard enough to get someone to make sacrifices for someone outside their immediate and extended family. Asking them for an "Allegiance to the Human Race" is way too much to ask, and in many cultural contexts it sounds even silly. It is more feasible to get them to do something for their country.

3. There is something called the "optimal fragmentation principle", which some of you may have read in Jared Diamond's writings (though I am not completely sure he came up with the idea). Nations are, to a certain extent, a result of this optimal state, or equilibrium, where a degree of competition is necessary to foster economic well-being and advancement in technology. Nationalism is what in many instances drives this competition.

Once a country is at the top though, like the United States (and it is hard not to notice that nationalism had a significant role in its rise to the helm of the world), it is certainly a shame and a disgrace that the US's main efforts are directed towards staying on top, as opposed to pulling other societies out of the gutter.

I have no problem with his scholarship, I am not aware of any glaring fictions on his part, nor do I fail to think highly of his overall purpose and ideals. My problem is that I think his oblique leftism renders him obtuse, off the mark, and intemperate. I have the same problems with Michael Moore, but I find Moore's integration of humour, as well as his medium (film), to be much more suited to him than literature is to Zinn. That isn't a slam on Zinn, rather a praise of Moore. I think Moore is untouchable even if he made a film that said the Holocaust didn't happen and Gandhi was a prankster in minstrel blackface from Tumbridge Wells.

We need to refute the idea that our nation is different from, morally superior to, the other imperial powers of world history.

but if we "refute the idea that our nation is different...etc.", doesn't that make "us" both different and...better? is zinn refuting the idea that its at all possible for a nation to be different and better? just wondering. because if it's not possible, why should we take his advice? happy independance day, anyway, y'all.

and Gandhi was a prankster in minstrel blackface from Tumbridge Wells.

well...close

A book well worth reading in a series edited by Zinn is Ray Raphael's "A People's History of the American Revolution".

http://www.rayraphael.com/

I haven't read the other Raphael books, but they look interesting too.

I have posted this link to Thomas Jefferson at a couple of other sites. It is worth reflecting on.

http://www.counterpunch.org/brenner07042003.html

Jefferson's last letter was about the 4th.

"May it be to the world, what I believe it will be, (to some parts sooner, to others later, but finally to all,) the signal of arousing men to burst the chains under which monkish ignorance and superstition had persuaded them to bind themselves, and to assume the blessings and security of self-government. That form which we have substituted, restores the free right to the unbounded exercise of reason and freedom of opinion. All eyes are opened, or opening, to the rights of man.

The general spread of the light of science has already laid open to every view the palpable truth, that the mass of mankind has not been born with saddles on their backs, nor a favored few booted and spurred, ready to ride them legitimately, by the grace of God. These are grounds of hope for others. For ourselves, let the annual return of this day forever refresh our recollections of these rights, and an undiminished devotion to them."

There are several other good citations as well.

"Is not nationalism -- that devotion to a flag, an anthem, a boundary so fierce it engenders mass murder -- one of the great evils of our time, along with racism, along with religious hatred?"

No. Not by any means. And were it phrased in a different way, everyone here would see it: is 'black pride' the same as 'white hatred'?

It is a natural thing to want to belong to a group, and to be proud of the group to which you belong. That is the essence of nationalism. No group is fundamentally harmful, unless the stated or implied purpose of that group is specifically to do harm. Like all things there is 'good' and 'bad' nationalism, and only childlike minds believe such absolutist positions as that stated by the author.

So, fly your flag high. Sing 'America the Beautiful' and 'Star Spangled Banner' and eat a hot dog in be proud to live in the best nation in the world. And maybe ask yourself what kind of person talks trash about someone on their birthday. The oh-so-trendy, smug, left-wing, theatrically-reluctant-American crowd is always trying to tell me that you can love your country and be endlessly critical and negative about it. Makes you wonder who they're trying to convince.

So, fly your flag high. Sing 'America the Beautiful' and 'Star Spangled Banner' and eat a hot dog in be proud to live in the best nation in the world.

And criticize and question the patriotism of anyone who you don’t agree with. And don’t actually serve your country because your symbolic patriotism and blind allegiance to authority trumps the sacrifice and service of those who may now choose to dissent (I’m referring to the swift boat campaign against John Kerry, in particular).

I personally don’t think that Zinn is much of a historian but I was probably too old when I read his “A People’s History of the United States.” I’m glad to see it is being read now in high schools. It’s certainly better than the jingoistic crap I read in high school and had to relearn on my own in college when I could think for myself. Maybe TeaBagTheTillerman should check this out of his local library—unless it’s been closed to cut costs.

"Maybe TeaBagTheTillerman"

Falsely claiming that loving your country is foolish? Just dime-a-dozen self-important liberal nonsense. Making a childish ass of yourself while trying to claim a moral/intellectual high ground? That's priceless.

The oh-so-trendy, smug, left-wing, theatrically-reluctant-American crowd is always trying to tell me that you can love your country and be endlessly critical and negative about it. Makes you wonder who they're trying to convince.

You say you love America but you obviously hate democracy and all it stands for.

Three hundred years ago they cut off your head if you criticized the king. Nowadays in our democracy where free speech is protected, I can call George W. Bush a stupid cocksucker, and I can call you one, and, better yet, I can love my country and STILL criticize all that is wrong with it.

What about this rankles you so much? WHY do you hate democracy and free speech? Do you think our country became "great" simply by default, or did we have to work at it, take honest stock of where we stood, criticized that which didn't work for all people, and change things to meet all constitutional rights and laws?

I'm sorry, but blind, uncritical faith by the people is a realm where tyrants rule and the people are mere subjects and not citizens.

The most important day to take stock of our republic is July 4. Our forefathers didn't want us to become sheep. Doubt and criticism are the healthiest American attributes. Why else did they give us the First Amendment? People who ciriticize our country serve it better than flag-waving morons who blindly follow our leaders with little or no resistance.

You are a silly and stupid fucker, Tea Bag. Your cowardice, hatred of your fellow citizens, and anti-democratic ramblings make me sick. You obviously hate everyone who isn't white or right-wing, good for you, and fuck you. Just thank your stars we're not all petty, selfish, hateful, and self-centered morons like you.

I don't hate my country. I just hate right-wing shitbags like you who hold democracy in contempt, hate the citizenry, and think that blind obedience is a patriotic virtue.

Don't lecture me about civic duty, you lazy fucktard. For you it is just empty words. Have you ever served your fellow citizens with any substantive action, TeaBag? You try to claim such a higher moral authority when you are really a lazy coward filled with contempt and hatred for anyone who doesn't conform to your narrow standards.

I could care les what you think, but since you spend an inordinate amount of time on Norm's blog lecturing us all about what horrible citizens we are, I wonder what the fuck makes you such a super patriot and ubercitizen?

Please tell us.

...contempt and hatred for anyone who doesn't conform to your narrow standards.

uh...max? all due respect, and i suspect you may have some relationship with americas armed forces, but before you accuse someone else of contempt and hatred, maybe you should have read your last two posts before you hit "post". i've seen your other stuff here, and i don't think of you as a hate filled individual, so i figure maybe you're having a bad day. with no evil intentions whatsoever,

a friend.

"You say you love America but you obviously hate democracy and all it stands for."

This is pretty funny, but it's easily topped by your next insipid statement:

"I can love my country and STILL criticize all that is wrong with it."

Why is this funny? Because it's a standard hand-waving nonsensical statement made by people like you, when you constantly engage in the latter and never engage in the former.

Tell me, what do you do to show you 'love your country'? Apparently waving a flag is beneath you. Singing an anthem? How bourgeois. Saying 'America is great'? That's for them idiot redneck cracker assholes. Far better to show how much you love your country by constantly talking shit about it. I mean, isn't that the basis of any good relationship?

"I'm sorry, but blind, uncritical faith by the people is a realm where tyrants rule and the people are mere subjects and not citizens."

This would be a relevant point if anybody were advocating blind, uncritical faith. But nobody is. You're simply too stupid to realize that life is not necessarily composed of extremes. One does not have to be either a crazy liberal or a covetous conservative; one does not have to speak constant bile and hatred for their country or blindly follow their leaders. You have skewed to one extreme and claim there is honor in it, while bitterly attacking the other. Which, hilariously, means you're simply part of the current problem: the partisan, us-or-them mentality that is stopping any progress in this country.

"I don't hate my country."

Your words say otherwise.

Well the emotionally disturbed person above certainly convinced me with all his swears and milking the giant teet of pathos.

Is criticism hate by your lights? I think the fundamental difference between how you see your country and others on here see it is like how a child sees his parents (mom and dad are perfect in every way) and how a parent sees his child (love him/her but can see the actual flaws in the individual and does not shy away from calling on them to improve, educate and thus refine the country and--like you put in your capital punishment defense comments--make progress.

Tell me, what do you do to show you 'love your country'?

I served in the Army for 8 years. Is that not dedication to my country? I don't need to make another public gesture for the rest of my life if I don't want to. My service to my country pretty much sums up how I feel about it. I love my country so much I was willing to fight for it, or die for it if it came to that. Does that answer your question, asshole? Now answer that question yourself. I am waiting with great anticipatin for you to tell us all what great noble and patriotic acts of self-sacrifice you've done for this country you claim to love so much that you sneer at anyone who dares to criticize it, even if the criticism is dead-on correct.

Waving a flag or putting a yellow "I support the Troops" magnet on your car is dandy, but self-sacrifice for others is real love, not empty gestures like singing anthems or waving flags, or talking shit like you do. The sad thing is, nothing I say will change you. You're just a self-actualized creep with nothing to show for all your bluster and bloviating.

I am not saying everyone has to serve in the military to prove his or her patriotism. But those of us who have served certainly don't have to answer to snarky little pro-war, non-serving shitheels like TeaBag either. Such "partiots," these little right-wing dorks who have all the answers but won't break a sweat to serve their cause. You are a disgrace to this country.

Or am I wrong, readers of One Good Move? I submit that to all of you.

You're simply too stupid to realize that life is not necessarily composed of extremes.

I am sorry, but you seem to be the only commenter on this web page who spews out Manichean logic as if it were holy writ, TeaBag. I don't espouse any extremist views, and I certainly do not subscribe to all or nothing propositions. I am merely stating that criticizing the country is not unpatriotic. Nor is waving flags and singing anthems patriotic. You, on the other hand, thrash around in a hissy fit like a squirrelly little know-it-all fussbudget every time Norm or one of his commenters expresses any criticism of Bush, the Bush Administration, or the stupid fucking polemics, socio-economics, and political outlook of the right wing. It's not America you defend, it's the loser scumbags who comprise the Republican and right-wing leadership and their corporate lords you defend. You and your leaders could give fuck-all about the American people or America. At least those of us who work for an honest living or are poor.

Stop being a disingenuous shitbag and maybe people might take you seriously. You reek of cowardice and have a tremendously weak grasp of reality. You cannot even see yourself for the creepy coward and whiny hypocrite you are.

There's really no need to argue with you. Your weak logic and tenuous grasp of reality is self-evident every time you try to be argumentative here. As is your hatred and contempt for the America that really matters, which is the citizenry and the democratic principles upon which our republic was founded.

AND you wouldn't sacrifice one drop of sweat for America either, though you claim to love it so.

Coward. Asshole. Child. I have no use for creeps like you. Your type is what poisons this country the most.