Something from the movie that needs to be pursued by American journalists (Do we still have those?) is the quality that Europeans receive from their health care systems. The American Right has done a great job of scaring people shitless about the evils of socialized medicine when Europeans are far more satisfied with their system than we are with what passes for health care in the USA.

I find it hilarious that the people who say Moore is fatuous, fat, deceitful, disingenuous, or whatever, are the same folks who get their news from conserve-o-tards like Michelle Malkin, Ann Coulter, Rush, O’Reilly, Fox News, or National Review. Moore doesn’t claim to be a legitimate source of news like those examples of rightwing propaganda, he just makes populist and popular movies.

Any personal attacks against Moore serve to show the weakness of those arguing against national health care. The proof is in the proof. European health care does a much better job of taking care of their citizens. Period.

leftbanker, i'm a european. and you are right we are probably more satisfied with our health care system. not a big surprise, people are not dying because of it. that still is no argument for socialized health care, or single payer. it is not a good system. of course it insures almost everyone but you can achieve that by regulating insurance companies. easy example: you have to insure everyone who applies, you have to at least pay for x, y and rates have to be the same for everyone on the same plan. if you do not like that, run another business. every citizen has to get a basic health plan. everyone is able to pay for it because of a negative income tax system.

it's almost as simple as that and you don't remove all the incentives to save money from the system. you have problems now with overpriced pharmaceuticals? have fun with pharma prices as soon as NOONE will care about the price of it. because their will be no customer who has to pay it and there will be no insurance company which has an interest in paying low prices.

socialized medicine is a good concept at first sight but in the long run either the quality gets worse and worse or the costs rise. in my country, it's a part of both. dental almost is not covered anymore. and the percentage of your loan you pay for health care has never been higher.

Stefan,

In principle, I would have no problem with your statement, "you can achieve that by regulating insurance companies". That was something Americans were once able to do, but unfortunately that may no longer be possible. Ever since Reagan, right-wing politicians have been at war with regulation of any industry in the United States. First came a propaganda blitz in which legitimate and phony criticisms of regulations were blended in a broad assault on any regulation at all. The attack on regulation continues, despite meltdowns like the savings-and-loan ripoffs of the late '80s and outrageous war profiteering today. Amazingly,when regulatory agencies are packed with incompetent and corrupt cronies - which typifies much of the Bush administration - the failure of government is held up by "conservatives" as just more evidence that government can't work. And finally, when regulations are written by the lobbyists from the same industry that is to be regulated, what kind of regulated insurance system can one expect to emerge?

As a European, the misinformation that stefan gives makes me laugh.

"socialized medicine is a good concept at first sight but in the long run either the quality gets worse and worse or the costs rise."

As the Americans pay at least 50% more of gdp for health care than than the "worst" European country with lack of universal coverage, it is completely ridiculous.

And, as Michael Moore points out, a poor country like Cuba does better than the U.S.

Sefan, ask any American about their wonderful dental care.

You're all correct in many of your statements and I would take Michael Moore a heck of a lot more seriously if he didn't use camera and editing tricks to make his "documentaries" seem so much worse than they actually are. The man is a liar its been proven time and time again and he puts things in his documentaries that are falsehoods and everyone knows it. It's unfortunate that the dem's in this country don't have someone to stand behind in that sort of a medium than that dipstick. His documentaries are not documentaries they are great ideas and sometimes he gets them right but they can not be documentaries because those are supposed to be 100% factual.

tim, i can see the problems with regulation in the US. but i don't see a difference to changing to socialized health care. you're going to see the same fear-mongering, as mm shows in his film when the clintons tried it. even once such a system is in place lobbyists will try to remove certain things from it like dental, as you can see in europe. (same with "my" plan of course) and considering the history of the US i think it's even easier to regulate an industry in the US than to get rid of one, for a system the right-wing can present as the beginning of socialism in america.

bernada, i was in no way saying that the current american system is better. i was saying that there is a better system than socialized health care. the government has to get involved in health care because it is a human right etc blah blah, but it does not have to run or pay for health care.

Moore puts "falsehoods in his documentaries"? And "everyone knows it"? Who is "everyone"? What specific falsehoods are you referring to?

He will most likely come back with the edit job he did with Charlton Heston that made it look like he held an NRA meeting right after Columbine... and the fact of the parents in Columbine that work at Lockheed Martin make missiles... Even though mostly the missiles are used to launch Sat's into space..They are actually ICBM's... most of the grips people use are technical... and really do not hold much substance when you honestly weigh it.. .

akin to some one saying I did not really use an ellipse above because there is a space between the second and third period...

Parts of Bowling for columbine may not be as portrayed in linear time, I think the overall points of the intentions of each side is laid out correctly.

Yeah I have to say that I wasn't the biggest fan of some of the editing going on in Bowling for Columbine, though I still supported the cause. However, I think Moore has realized what was wrong with what he was doing, F9/11 showed that improvement and Sicko looks like it will be a fine documentary.

sicko uses similar editing tricks, especially no linear time. it is still worth watching.

"I find it hilarious that the people who say Moore is fatuous, fat, deceitful, disingenuous, or whatever, are the same folks who get their news from conserve-o-tards"

Of course you do. Because you're precisely the same type of fatuous, disingenuous, deceitful person. Look at how you posit your 'wondering statement': falsely pigeonholing anybody who recognizes Moore for what he is as a 'conserv-o-tard'. How mature - I can see you've put some serious, mature thought into this issue.

Moore is a fatuous, morbidly obese, deceitful, hypocritical, fantastically wealthy propagandist who has used lies and camera trickery to build a small empire. The most ironic thing is that he is so vocally anti-America, yet has only succeeded by milking the American system.

"Moore doesn’t claim to be a legitimate source of news like those examples of rightwing propaganda, he just makes populist and popular movies."

Nonsense. Moore most certainly does claim that what he is presenting to you is fact.

And your tiresome hand-waving regarding this issue is just as dishonest as it is regarding Jon Stewart and the Daily Show. You can't expect people to listen to your commentary regarding news, health care, or what have you when you hold everybody else up to a higher standard than the one you exemplify.

"Any personal attacks against Moore serve to show the weakness of those arguing against national health care."

Not at all, because the two are separate arguments. The reason people attack Moore and his dipshit fans is precisely because both truly believe the man is the cause, when in reality the man and the cause are two separate issues.

The cause is complex - much more so than 'Europe takes better care blah blah'. The cause is something pretty much everybody in America is concerned about. The man, and his fans, are simple. And they are only concerned about themselves - either about making more money for more multi-million-dollar New York penthouses (so working class!) or making sure everybody knows how much they 'care' about this issue ... without actually having to analyze it or offer solutions.

Moore does nothing for the health care debate - the same nothing he did for the issues surrounding the 2000 elections, the Iraq war, violence in Columbine, or unemployment in Flint (a place he didn't actually live). The only 'Sicko' here is Moore.

Go ahead and pat yourself on the back for putting a few more dollars in his pocket. But the health care situation will be exactly the same after 'Sicko' as it was before it.

Moore is a fatuous, morbidly obese, deceitful, hypocritical, fantastically wealthy propagandist

Why do I get the feeling that you are all of these minus the wealthy part?

And your tiresome hand-waving regarding this issue is just as dishonest as it is regarding Jon Stewart and the Daily Show. You can't expect people to listen to your commentary regarding news, health care, or what have you when you hold everybody else up to a higher standard than the one you exemplify.

Once again, I don’t have the slightest idea of what you are saying. You are so quick to jump to your silly, contrarian opinions that you forget to make any sense. Why don’t you peddle your half-wit ideas to your brothers in arms at Rush.com?

That fact is, there is no example of an insurer system of health care that works. This is the huge fraud being presented by the entire neo-con belief system, a system that wants there to be almost no government regulation of any industry. The Milton Freidman school of “Let’s Let Industry Make All Our Decisions.” That’s been done before, it was called fascism. In a democracy we let the people make the decisions as they do in Europe with their health care. They have problems but nothing like what we have. If you disagree then you probably have never seen their health care first hand.

Here are some of my news sources that I read regularly (books not included in list):

The New York Times
The Washington Post
El Pais (Madrid)
Le Figaro (Paris)
Le Monde (Paris)
Harper’s
The Atlantic
Monthly
The New Yorker
NPR
BBC

I will put my news sources up against the crap where you must be getting your information any day. You are ill-informed. Stop watching Fox News; it isn’t news. I have never read a single comment by you that I thought was even remotely interesting. Go find people who agree with you; I don't think there are many here.

leftbanker, i think you may be wrong about one thing: based on his prose style i'd say t4t probly has an ejakashun that probly cost a pretty penny. and based on his opinions, which are pretty much in line with the privilaged class in the u.s., i'd say that at least in relative terms (aren't they all) he's wealthy, certainly compared to me, maybe compared to you, and undoubtedly compared to the poor people being screwed by the system that michael moore is building his considerable nest egg on the backs of.

go ahead, t4t, tell me how you're living on 122 street in a refrigerator box. make me feel bad. you know you want to, you rich bastard. :)

Egads, I love that people are discussing this topic. It's win/win in the same way discussing Brittney Spears is lose/lose.

I just don't get it. Really I don't.

I am not a big fan of MM. Bowling did have bad cuts in it to distort the truth, F911 made fun of foreigners.

But he pokes are serious points, but the only rebuttals I ever see is to attack MM and call him fat.

WAKE UP. You have serious problems with your medical health care systems. Sure make fun of the guy but your issues are still there.

In Ireland for example I go to emergency, I page around 50 euros up front then it is free for everything after that (as long as it is an emergency). Ireland has its problems too with long waiting times, etc. My medical insurance kicks in at that point to jump the queue but I will still get seen to no matter what. If I don't have the money or insurance they just bill me later.

South Korea where I was in a bad way (food poisoned) I got seen in 10 minutes of entering the emergency room. I got xrays and various other tests within 30 minutes even though there were many serious cases there. I was seen totally in record time and then only asked to pay. I was told they didn't take my medical insurance which wasn't an issue as the total cost was about 20 euros all in.

Now America. I fractured my arm. In extreme pain I had wait almost two hours to... GET MY MEDICAL INSURANCE VERIFIED. Seriously, I couldn't believe it after speaking to a receptionist that all they were doing was checking my medical insurance and she told me to sit down again.

Another hour or so waiting I get to triage who just give me drugs to numb the pain and tie up the arm. Another 2 hours I get xrays where the guy keeps telling me I am moving my arm and took about 8 or 9 of them. (not used to US medical practice I didnt' know I would be billed for each one taken).

3 hours after that I finally see a doctor for 10 minutes who just gives me more painkillers. I waited all that time and I had what I believed as good medical insurance (paid for by the company).

But it didn't stop there. Even though my medical insurance company is supposed to pay the bill the hospital does "double billing". Basically they keep sending me bills telling then threatening me to pay. I'd ring the insurance who would say its paid, I'd ring the hospital who would say it wasn't.

I am sure if you lived with this system all your life you could defend it but America has possibly the worst health care in the world if your not rich.

Lastly while I believe Moore fuked up with Columbine, he learnt his lesson from it. F911 he actually posted every source item to follow up on. The only serious rebuttals I've seen since then is calling him fat.

Holy Shit!

You mean you have socialized medicine but you still need insurance if you want to be seen quickly?!?!

I can't wait for the US to be just like Ireland!

No it is not like that at all.

We have medical cards for those who can't afford private health care. These allow most general stuff free.

If your working you pay into Social welfare which you can claim back through medical issues and your entitled certain things free automatically each year. For example 1 eye exam free, a certain amount of cash off your glasses automatically, dental paid for general stuff.

If your going into emergency and it is an emergency you get seen to straight away. It is a fixed (around 60 euros) for the whole thing. For example my wife hurt her back went into emergency and got seen in 3 hours (as it wasn't serious and it was busy time - Fri evening), 2 weeks later she went back with the same issue and they didn't charge her and saw her within an hour.

General surgery if you want it free you have to get onto a waiting list. You can jump the waiting list by paying or if you have medical insurance they will pay.

Waiting depends on what it is. For example I had to get a nerve test in my hand. If I had gone onto the waiting list it would of been around 3 months. I paid with medical insurance and got seen within a week.

You would still be bumped though if there was an emergency ahead of you unless your going to a specialized private hospital.

Ireland does have issues. For example Ireland is suffering from an infrastructure issue. Basically a house/population boom but not enough infrastructure to cover it (eg. Hospitals, schools)

But in regards to getting seen to when your actually sick it is light years ahead of America.

And to have a Doctor in Ireland say something like "Which finger would you like to save so we don't over bill you" would be unheard of.

I just can't understand why so many Americans are against universal health care coverage. Under these systems, those who can afford it still receive the best medical care, but at least everyone receives some medical coverage.

One has to experience the hell of having what's know as a "pre-existing" condition to really know much better off so many other countries are than we are.

So what is it that keeps us from working towards better health care coverage for all in this country? Is it too much pride which keeps people from having to admit that our country might not be better than other countries in this area?

If everyone paid into the system, then overall, health care costs would be less.

sigh...

Who isn't paying into the system Jo Ann? Illegal aliens? Bankruptcy filers? Tourists from Ireland?

Seriously, if there is a way for me to stop paying into the system, I need to know!

Syngas,

The millions of Americans who don't have health insurance are not paying into the system. Health insurance is not provided by the government. I have no health insurance because I cannot afford it because of a pre-existing condition. What's available doesn't cover much. And even when I did have health insurance, I ended up going broke paying thousands of dollars for procedures not covered by the insurance.

Seriously, Syngas, why don't you spend some time studying the health care of some countries such as Finland or France. Those people have it made! They are so damned lucky!

Looks to me like the uninsured pay dearly into the system. I skipped insurance for a few years in my twenties and am thankful nothing serious happened but I paid with sleepless nights and passed-up ski trips.

I admire the history and culture of France and have no problem with their embrace of socialism. In time, we too will succumb to socialism as do all democracies eventually. It's a cycle. Unfortunately socialism is only a part of the cycle - next comes dictatorship. I hope you'll agree that is bad, no matter what Hugo Chavez says.

I too am a big fan of France and her culture. It's not just France who has "succumbed" to socialism, as all of the European countries are socialist in nature. However, they are no closer to a dictatorship than the U.S. is. However, I realize that the condept of "socialism" is equivalent to something very very bad in our country for most people.

Of course, I'm no fan of Hugo Chavez'and I've never admired the political models of the countries in Mexico, Central America and South America.

Tourists from Ireland?

If that is a reference to me, I was living in America. I wasn't a tourist. I was paying taxes too. :P

Another thing about "Pre-existing condition". We have that in Medical insurance here. Basically if I have a pre-existing condition I still pay the same medical insurance but they will not treat the condition until at least being in the system one year.

The exceptions to this is newborns which can be added to the system regardless of a pre-existing condition or not. Also if you get married then your spouse who is added has a time limit of 6 months (AFAIR).

As for socialism being bad. I think Moore points out that there are still a lot of things in the US that are social based. Your fire stations for example. If it is so bad why not privatize that?

Fire stations, police stations and schools in the US are mostly financed by local municipalities from property taxes and sales taxes collected from that community. New Yorkers contribute very little for Kansas City fire departmets and vice-versa. That may fit your definition of socialism but I don't think it compares to a nationwide government benefit.

If you want to point out how the US has socialist programs, social security and medicare would be would better fit the description.

we too will succumb to socialism as do all democracies eventually. It's a cycle. Unfortunately socialism is only a part of the cycle - next comes dictatorship.

What are you talking about? American has been a democracy longer than any country yet we have yet to even consider socialism. Care to give an example of socialism’s inexorable slide into dictatorship? A lot of Europeans would argue that the US is presently closer to a dictatorship than anyone in the EU.

The fact is, Americans must learn that “socialism” is mot a bad word. In my opinion a socialist democracy is a more evolved and preferable system than the one we currently live under. It is childish to think that we can rely on the private sector for a lot of our basic needs. We need to lose this myth that the private sector is more efficient than the public sector. Whatever problems we have with social security in America are not due to inefficiency but to under-funding. Our private health care system is horribly inefficient; we spend a lot more than other countries and get a lot less. The billions of dollars made by insurance companies do no go to treat a single patient. What private company would administer social security as cheaply as it runs now (I think it uses something like 3% for administration)?

The health care systems in other countries work better than ours and we need to find out what they are doing and copy it. Ours is too broken to fix. We need a major change.

That may fit your definition of socialism but I don't think it compares to a nationwide government benefit.

I think you need to look up on what Socialism is.

Either way that is not what MM movie is about. It isn't about free health care for all, it is about people who pay for medical insurance get royally screwed in America while most other countries offer better services for free in many cases.

Hugo Chavez and Juan Peron are excellent examples. Musollini and Milosovic are possible examples.

Thanks for engaging me again Leftbanker. After our less-than-civil encounter at your blog, I never expected you to acknowledge me here.

If anyone is prone to socialism it is you E.U."caryotes". And please don't bring up slime molds or fruiting bodies. Not far behind is the Mormon "hive" mentality, and sure as clockwork, multicellularity, nervous systems, brains, and, gasp, ...

intelligence.

Syngas, Ayn (e. u. s.)* is for adult kindergarten. Who is John Galt's Galant Gallstone? A collective of brain cells dying. Mr. Becker is astute on t4t. U.$.A.: democracy for sale, downsizeable, outsourceable, to the highset bidder.

Ghghghghghghgh!

I think I'm choking on my own vomit.

.

*ayn g(u e s)s

more fom toolery.

Syngas,

Mussolini was not a leftist. He was far right. Far right is fascism. Get your history straight.

As for the general discussion:

I recently traveled to Italy with a study abroad program for a month with my University (I live in TN - work full-time and go to school full-time.)

A girl in our group had something akin to strep throat. She was seen in record time at the hospital in Rome, and the meds were less than 10 Euro.

Last fall, I stopped taking my migraine medication because it is $600 for 6 pills--a month's supply, more than what I pay in rent. I only made $8/hr at the time. I had to withdraw from a semester of school because my migraines got so bad and frequent (every other day) and I barely made it into work. I am a zombie when I have a migraine. My student insurance does not cover medication. So I have had to prolong my college education by a semester which means I am stuck with crappy insurance for another semester, and I don't know what I am going to do when my migraines come back with the cold weather in the fall. I am so scared of not being able to make it through the fall semester with the f*&%ing migraines and I am supposed to graduate in December. I have an IQ of 150 and cannot get through college because of the damned headaches, and I cannot afford the medicine that works. I cannot take on a second job.

I would gladly trade Italy's health care system for ours anyday. I love my country, but the migraines are unbearable and I will move to another country if that means I am able to get relief.

Also if I tried to get another insurance plan (which I can't afford) the headaches would be a pre-existing condition and wouldn't be insured for one year. What good does that do me?!

Ash,

The standard response is "but you don't want the government running our health insurance, do you!?".

You can point out how wonderful it is in other countries, and people will still respond in the same way. Americans have been brainwashed into thinking that our country is the bestest and brightest in everything. Even many leftists/democracts/progressives feel that way.

Or they'll say, "But we're not Italy!".

It's hopeless. We're screwed.

Ms. Ann:

Tom Foolery, yes, but the subject is as serious as any. Ayn is the hypocrite (hypocrite-ess?). Syn, the synner. Michael Moore Hymself often plays the fool (Jon Stewart, Colbert, Maher, ..., too). Mr. Hitchens has taken his town drunk act on the road, like some rail-riding hobo.

Seriously, the constant labeling of what for any unbiased grown-up would seem to be common sense [and which is seen as such in the "first" world, excluding the 3 stooges, China/Russia/U.$.] as "socialism", with a capital "S" is a bit like calling every black person you meet the "N" word, prejudging unreasonedly, blindly, hatefully, with no concern for facts or consequences.

If "socialism" is meant merely as another dirty word, it is hate speech as much as any other "hate" speech. If it is not dirty, dirty as in "dirty socialists," echoes of "dirty ____" (fill-in-the-blacks*), then it is superfluous.

Public libraries, bike-paths, freeways, parks, stadia, health care/hospitals-with-emergency-rooms, arts centers, town squares (who is Pythagoras without the agora? Pyth? Myth.), everything in the commons, everything civilized, is "socialist".

Bullshit!

A mixed economy is a time-tested, proven, workable way of doing things. A. Greenspan/Ayn Rand/Milt-toast Friedman/ Grover "sell-the Grand-Canyon-and-Sequoias" Norquist: "Ideal", "Objectivist," "Capitalist" Fundamentalism is fringe lunacy. Lunacy that has staged a coup and taken over the center, and sooner than later, the periphery, if it is not stopped.

Seriously.

"Wachet auf" ruft Uns die Stimme. Narren, Schlaraffenlaender. Tontos!

And what is it with Syngas anyway?

Here in the four corners, we have natural gas. It is part of our Native/Nuevo-Chicano heritage. Even the Mormons have it, giant bean-farms, saving up supplies for the end-times, Apocalypto, whatever they believe.

Who need synthetic gas? Who needs Syngas? Zeppelinesque gas-bag? What? what does it mean? Is it an anagram? A hologram? A pornogram? I got it. A tontogram!

And Weak-tea for Titillator-man: America is not U.$. U.$. is not America. America will be here long after U.$. is gone, just as it was here long before U.$. was here. Capitalism ("free," Fundamentalist) is by far the slipperiest of all slippery slopes. And at the bottom of the slope is, always has been, $lavery, Tonto-man. $lavery.

.

.

*Indios, Chicanos, Chinos, whoever...

I hear you. For the first time.