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Michael Moore - Sicko

Oprah interviews Michael Moore on his latest documentary, Sicko

Part 1



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Part 2



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Comments

I think nothing is going to happen and you're still going to have completely privatized medical system. What do you think, ten years from now, will you have it or not?

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"What do you think, ten years from now, will you have it or not?"

No. The American people are too fucking stupid to vote according to their own best interest. They have, since Reagan, voted their jobs away, voted their social safety net away, voted their civil liberties away, voted their environmental and food protections away, voted their own security away, and are in the process of voting their own democracy away. These dumb motherfuckers will do whatever the corporate media tells them to do.

http://brutusworks.com/david-cross.mp3

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You two are quite the clowns. I take it you don't live in America.

I take it you don't live in America.

Do you? If so, do your very best to prove them wrong. Please.

PS. Why do I see two copies of this blog post on the main page, with different reply threads? If Norm would fix his blog software, I would gladly give him not one, but two free internets.

I want to hate Michael Moore ("Bowling for Columbine" was a hack-job at best).

I want to hate Oprah ("The Secret" is that she gets a cut of book sales).

I want to describe this as "liberal propaganda" and ignore it. I want to believe in the power of profit, and the inherent goodness of capitalism.

That said, I am slowly coming to the realization that I am on the wrong side of this issue.

Special thanks to "Tim" for responding to my last comment, and starting me down a path of research that has really opened my eyes.

I am still extremely concerned about vesting too much power in the Federal Government, and I am still concerned over the costs of implementing a new, non-profit system.

That said, the question (for me) is no longer: "is socialized medicine a good idea?" The real question is: "how are we, as Americans, going to fix this?"

I will be there on opening day- and doing a lot of reading in the meantime.

Was it just me, or did it seem like when Moore said something the audience was stone-silent; when Oprah rephrased and resaid what Moore did, they clapped?

Also, agree about The Secret. Reminds me of a piece by Garrison Keillor a few months ago: "...I think we must bite the bullet and say no more health care for card-carrying Republicans. It just doesn't make sense to invest in the longevity for people who don't believe in the future. Let them try faith-based medicine, let them pray for their artieries to be reamed and their hips to be restored, and leave science to the rest of us."

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I love it when millionaires tell me I need to be more giving. I also like how "brave" Dr. Peeno (in part 1) decided to give her testimony after 9 years of receiving a six figure salary. And since when do we "not pay for fire department [sic]"?

How to pay for socialized health care? Cut some funding from our existing military-industrial complex and get rid of all the politicians who keep perpetuating it. Taxes probably wouldn't even have to be raised. Too bad Kucinich is the only presidential candidate who would be interested in doing something like that.

"I also like how "brave" Dr. Peeno (in part 1) decided to give her testimony after 9 years of receiving a six figure salary. "

I am sorry but I find this very silly. It doesn't matter if it's after 9 years. You think it's an easy thing to do? And what about any penalties?

I see your point on some millionaires, but come on. Don't throw the whole thing out.

  • Raist
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And since when do we "not pay for fire department [sic]"?

Of course EVERYONE pays for the Fire Department - if they pay taxes! And for schools and the police. But you don't get an invoice from them if they come to put out your blazing house, or one from the police when they arrest a mugger who attacked you.

Does anyone else see the irony of a 400+ pound man and a talk show host that spends the majority of her on-time air looking for magical weight-loss secrets acting shocked that people in Costa Rica live longer than our McDonalds eating, soda drinking, Oprah watching, car riding, sedentary asses?

Saturday Night Live could have a field day with this one ;-}

I want to believe in the power of profit, and the inherent goodness of capitalism. That said, I am slowly coming to the realization that I am on the wrong side of this issue. Special thanks to "Tim" for responding to my last comment, and starting me down a path of research that has really opened my eyes.

Thanks Zaphod - since I desperately want to believe in the power of reason!

Did anyone not know that the American insurance systems are scams?

Cuba doesn't only take care of its own people, it has an effective outreach program for people in many poor countries.

http://www.saludthefilm.net/ns/main.html

Here are more details on Cuba's health care system.

http://www.yesmagazine.org/article.asp?ID=1733

Cuba does not discriminate against Americans--contrary to the inverse American policy.

"Recently, Cuba extended the offer of free medical training to students from the United States. It started when Representative Bennie Thompson of Mississippi got curious after he and other members of the Congressional Black Caucus repeatedly encountered Cuban or Cuban-trained doctors in poor communities around the world.

They visited Cuba in May 2000, and during a conversation with Fidel Castro, Thompson brought up the lack of medical access for his poor, rural constituents. “He [Castro] was very familiar with the unemployment rates, health conditions, and infant mortality rates in my district, and that surprised me,” Thompson said. Castro offered scholarships for low-income Americans under the same terms as the other international students—they have to agree to go back and serve their communities.

Today, about 90 young people from poor parts of the United States have joined the ranks of international students studying medicine in Cuba."

"Did anyone not know that the American insurance systems are scams?"

Yes, the Oprah crowd.

The "France sucks, they don't get medical care, nobody works in France, it takes 6 months to see a doctor for a broken arm in Canada, Perscription popping, "ask your doctor if you have these symptoms"" Crowd.

Oh, and one more thing, how proud I am of Zaphod for being open enough to admit what he used to think was wrong. Don't see that very often on the internet. As someone who deals with the kind of person you used to be, What caused you to see the other side of the issue?

Zaphod for President of the Universe!

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A.D.D. this:

Kaliyuga is no clown, if anything he is a bit too inclined toward a sort of benign humorlessness, and he's right on. If he doesn't live in America, he is weirdly familiar, almost too familiar with it. It's all true. It's all too true.

Michael Moore is a national treasure. The Guantanamo segment, a mutating-worm's eye view sublimississimo.

And Oprah, my accidental hero (heroine?), because of her I no longer eat mammals,... tetrapods.

Zaphod, you the Tetrapod (the man, evolved... Dipod?), er,

Zaphod, you the Dipod*!

Capitalism is like fire. In its place, Promethean gift-giveness. But out of control, the bit about fire depts. was spot almost on. Too many volunteer thousand points of sparks. If you are a laissez-fair pyromaniac, small animal-torturer, etc., Katrina-is-God's-Willey, Capitalist with a capital "C" etc.., you probably live in:

a)America

b)China

c)Russia

The Big three are dinosaurs. We should not bail any of them out. I'm all for World-government, but with (ethnic?) reservations (the Jewish reservation, Samaritan, Aryan, Afrikaaner, whatever) For those who prefer to remain unmixed:

Michael Moore for World president, Oprah for vice -president.

What is it with all the Polka dots anyway? Przemysl wanny email-wane what? Polish jocularity, joviality, jehovah-iality, what?

Ever.

.

*Yes, I do still eat dipods, you chicken?

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"'I take it you don't live in America.'

Do you? If so, do your very best to prove them wrong. Please."

Well, he says, "The American people are too fucking stupid to vote according to their own best interest" and if he's American, I guess he's also one of those fucking stupid people, but I don't think anyone would call themselves a fucking stupid person.

And yes, I am an American, and I am proud that I don't generalize groups of people like this asshole.

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fds repeat:

you have no idea how many times I've been fucking stupid, uncountable, learning from experience requires judgment (I judge this a stupid way to spell judgement, e.g.).

We have been way too stoopid.

If the Germans could fall for Nazi-onal Sozi-alismus, the Japs could follow a "divine" emperor, why could we not have been deluded too? Are we really that much smarter [Science (I.Q. tests) has an answer, no!]?

The question is: are we so stupid we will never realize how stupid we have been, until...

?

How many clues does it take?

Don't Americans accept or expect a certain level of brokenness?

The American people are too fucking stupid to vote according to their own best interest.

Anyone who curses the apparent stupidity of average Americans should consider that not all Americans are born with the highest IQ's or receive adequate education. Americans do not vote for self-interest directly - we vote for people to represent us. Average Americans may even place more emphasis on voting for people they like rather than those with similar views.

What do you think, ten years from now, will you have (universal healthcare) or not?

If American corporations demanded it then, yes. More likely, a few minor patches with more uninsured people covered by the federal government but no check on rising costs of healthcare or insurance.

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"That said, I am slowly coming to the realization that I am on the wrong side of this issue."

No, you're not. If you hate Michael Moore, you're on the right side of the issue. Because the issue is Michael Moore. Not whatever trumped-up cause he is currently pretending to care about. It's always about Moore and his wealth and hypocrisy.

The fact that there is such a large contingent of people in this country who honestly believe this man is anything but an opportunist raking in cash by selling common knowledge back to you - that just proves that political affiliation does not guarantee intelligence.

By all means, everyone go see his movie, put some more cash in his pocket, and pretend like something has been accomplished.

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"No. The American people are too fucking stupid"

Really? And how's your country doing?

"to vote according to their own best interest."

Perhaps what you think is in our 'best interest' doesn't adhere to what we think? Perhaps, in a democracy, the problem is that a lot of differing opinions about what is 'in our best interest' have to compete until enough people are convinced that one course is the proper one?

"They have, since Reagan, voted their jobs away"

... to support a completely leftist ideal of 'elevating a global work force' - I guess this high-and-mighty concept has been abandoned, and now we're stupid for believing that?

"voted their social safety net away"

What does that even mean?

"voted their civil liberties away"

Really? I don't recall things like the PATRIOT ACT coming up for popular vote. Maybe you're just on an ignorant tirade.

"voted their environmental and food protections away"

... an odd position given the fact that environmental protection has steadily increased as time has passed, and the problems with 'food protection' are actually due to the inefficiencies of government oversight and booming international food markets.

"voted their own security away"

Really? How?

"and are in the process of voting their own democracy away."

Voting ... our own democracy away. Delicious.

"These dumb motherfuckers will do whatever the corporate media tells them to do."

Yeah! We should be even dumber motherfuckers and listen to you second-and-third-tier countries tell us to do!

Keep telling yourself how dumb we are, we'll keep running the world.

Stupid foreigner.

The issue is not Moore anymore than Bush. It's what they do and have done. In terms of who has more power to eff things up I'd say the latter and he's a more serious issue. Do you need to see Moore's movie to know what's going on? No. Do a lot of people? Probably.

As for the "we'll keep running the world"comment, I can't recall the last time I heard such f*&&ing arrogance.

That attitude isn't helping, anymore than generalizing about the IQ levels of the American populace.

It annoyed me how Michael Moore kept calling everyone in Guantanamo terrorists, when like 90% of them have no reason being there. Aside from that I think this movie is long overdue, the health care industry is disgusting. It makes the judicial system in this country look respectable.

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In general there is nothing fallacious about generalizing . Over-generalization is the error ("Generalizing is always wrong", e.g.). Americans, specifically, are not, as a nation, Infallible, spell it out:

We are not a nation of...

Popes.

Nor are we inevitably, collectively, Papal as a People. More specific to you ocean-going COLONIZERS: for Tillerman,

Jamestown Weed Tea would be fine, thank you.

If your looking for examples for your logic class on abusive ad hominem T4T has provided a beauty.

If you hate Michael Moore, you're on the right side of the issue. Because the issue is Michael Moore. Not whatever trumped-up cause he is currently pretending to care about. It's always about Moore and his wealth and hypocrisy.

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As part of a Vision Quest, I mean.

Re-vision, maybe?

If your looking for examples for your logic class on abusive ad hominem T4T has provided a beauty.

Indeed - and this was a real reach too. T4T responded to a post of Zaphod's in which Zaphod had gone out of his way to discount the credibility of both Michael Moore and Oprah Winfry and had expressed his concerns about "liberal propaganda" to boot! Instead, he credited information he turned up in research (following up on a Wikipedia link I provided) as having changed his mind.

But what is the use of the truth anyway? (I heard somewhere that it has liberal bias.)

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"The issue is not Moore anymore than Bush."

It's not an either/or situation. Bush can be an issue at the same time Michael Moore is an issue. And - shockingly - one can disagree with Michael Moore and not disagree with the issues he pretends to stand for or care about.

"As for the "we'll keep running the world"comment, I can't recall the last time I heard such f*&&ing arrogance."

Look one post above mine, and you'll see arrogance at least equal to, if not greater than, that. The problem is you're more keyed towards people who speak arrogantly for the US than those who speak against it.

"Americans, specifically, are not, as a nation, Infallible"

Of course not. It is important to note that my response was not triggered by someone saying "America is fallible!" It was in response to someone saying something pejorative about America.

Contrary to what a lot of people now seem to believe, there is nothing wrong with building yourself up. Having pride in yourself and your country is not a hurtful thing. On the other hand constantly nitpicking, finding fault, and insulting your own country - or keeping your mouth shut when foreigners do this - is hurtful.

"If your looking for examples for your logic class on abusive ad hominem"

You don't seem to understand that Michael Moore is the argument. He's an opportunistic, hypocritical, lying propagandist. I attack him directly because what he pretends to care about has no bearing on what or who he is.

Is health care a concern? Obviously. That's why every major candidate is answering questions about it, why all Americans are in some way concerned about it, and why it's constantly in the news. It's not like this is an overlooked crisis. Moore isn't digging it up and bringing it to the spotlight. More importantly, he isn't actually doing anything about it. He's just mocking the current situation for his own gain.

"T4T responded to a post of Zaphod's in which Zaphod had gone out of his way to discount the credibility of both Michael Moore"

Michael Moore has no credibility. He is exhorbitantly rich, and has openly admitted to his own greed and to loving his wealth. He owned stock in Halliburton. He is from a rich neighborhood and pretended to be from Flint. He openly lied in all of his movies, and used camera trickery and staged scenes to give false impressions. He is a propagandist. The fact that you agree with the goal of his propaganda does not make his methods any less deceitful, nor the man himself any more respectable.

T4T says Michael Moore is the argument. Sorry T4 you don't get to unilaterily define the issue. You don't like Michael Moore and you like to bash him, we get it, but the discussion here is not Michael Moore but his documentary on healthcare. If you have something to say about the subject of healthcare be my guest. If not your comments aren't welcome.

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"Sorry T4 you don't get to unilaterily define the issue."

I'm not attempting to unilaterally define the issue. I am simply clarifying that the reason I and others are replying about Moore is because Moore is our argument. Do you really expect rational people to argue that our health care system works perfectly? Thus it is 'fictitious' to claim that talking about Moore is an attempt to draw attention away from the real issue.

I have to give you credit, though. You don't even attempt to hide your bias in these threads. Anybody who strays from your accepted path of thinking/responding is chastised for imaginary violations of some unwritten code of conduct, while people are apparently free to say the most appalling things about America and Americans. I'd call you childish, but you're already running a website that complains about big business and capitalism while offering 'hot links' to books and merchandise, and you're apparently doing quite well in the country you deride and ridicule on a daily basis. I can see why you're a Michael Moore fan.

You're a web bully, Norm, and I may not stop you but I will always speak out against you.

You don't even attempt to hide your bias in these threads. Anybody who strays from your accepted path of thinking/responding is chastised for imaginary violations of some unwritten code of conduct, while people are apparently free to say the most appalling things about America and Americans.

Here is the unwritten code That's right we are free to say "the most appaling things about America and Americans" it's a right granted to us by the constitution. If you want a forum where you make the rules start one, if you choose to remain here you'll follow my rules. You call it bullying I call it controlling the trolls. Those inconsiderate few who try to hijack the threads with mindless drivel.

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For some reason I imagined this thread as an Eighteenth Century play. With sword fighting!

Moore is doing what he does best. Stir up the debate. How many of us, while admitting the insurance companies suck, gave a damn. Is it propaganda? Hell yes. Name one film that isn't (let alone a "documentary"). I don't think either of them (Oprah, Moore) are saints, but it is a kick in head, and a welcome one, to divert our attention to our domestic problems.

I haven't seen the film, and probably won't until its on DVD (theaters are for giant robots and pirates!).

Also, if Norm is such a big bully, are you protecting us. I would think were all adults here.

While I don't like most of what T4T says, I think he has a point in that this discussion is as much about Moore as it is his documentary. The thread is about the video of Moore being interviewed, it's not just a clip from the documentary.

That's the problem making it about Moore in general rather than focusing on the topic of the documentary makes for stupid mindless crap. I try to provide a place where we can discuss important issues. When it degenerates into a stupid argument about Moore as a person it is worthless. If that's what you're looking for find someplace else to participate. If you want to discuss it further send me an email.

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Here is the problem as I see it. The insurance industry cannot really turn a profit without screwing people over, because health care in general is a money losing proposition. So, to generate profit, they do what they do. Now ordinarily, when people are getting screwed by the system, the people working for the system dont complain. The so called gatekeepers like lawyers, middle and upper managers, doctors, accountants, etc, these people protect the system. Problem is, even they are getting screwed by this system. Its so bad that a lawyer can save and save for 2 decades to make a million in savings, and then lose it all and become indigent because of heart problems, cancer, etc. So my prediction is that the system will be tweaked in a way that will allow these gatekeepers to be more secure. once that is done, any impetus for real change will dissipate, meanwhile the poor will continue to be stuck with no health care just like before.

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The messenger is not the message.

This isn't soap opera, it isn't about your favourite or most hated personalities. It is about how America deals with the health of its citizens and residents.

Its about universal access to good health care. It's about dampening the profit motive in medicine. It isn't about fat Michael Moore or weight obsessed Oprah. It's about the quality of life in your country.

Obsessing about all the wrong things is exactly what people are talking about when they go on about stupid Americans. Native IQ is not the issue there but that is another issue best not dealt with here.

The messanger is not the message.

I have to say something when people lump doctors in with the group of people who benefit from the healthcare system in the same way a lawyer or accountant or administator benefits. doctors often lose money when they see medicare or medicaid patients because the reimbursement for seeing a patient on medicare or medicaid is a fraction of the overhead to run the office to see the patient. when was the last time you heard of a lawyer or dentist or plumber or gardener lose money on a regular basis by seeing a client. on average a 'non-surgeon' physician makes less than $30/hr after paying for overhead and expenses. doctors generally favor a third-party payor because for more physicians, the reimbursements are generally better and there is minimal paperwork.

If you are interested in just how profitable health plans companies really are, here you go.

http://biz.yahoo.com/p/522qpmu.html

Notice that net profit margin for the group is 5.1%

If you want to see how that compares to major industry sectors, here you go

http://biz.yahoo.com/p/s_conamed.html

Notice net profit margin for every industry group is higher than that of the Health Plan group.

I agree way too much money is wasted on administrative costs but try as they might, health plans aren't very good at making profits .

This was a great clip but too bad most people who post comments in here will probably never get past Michael's "political views" and see beyond that.

I find it comical that you people argue about the most inane things and disregards the biggest issue.

You Americans prove to me evertyime that you are a country that focuses too much on the "Me" rather than "We." The imaginary notion that the USA is some sort of United country makes me laugh. Why?

Because here you are bickering about Michael's views or how Bush gets more idiotic everyday.

I doubt you Americans will ever be united. Probably within the next 10 years, you people will segregate each other further and further. Democrats vs Republicans, Atheist vs Religious fanatics.

You guys can't seem to get past the smallest of issue and just bicker on and on about non-important things.

In regards to the health care issue, I see Americans starting to realize how messed up it is but will probably forget. Columbine didn't teach you guys anything.

Personally, I enjoy the free health care I receive. Heck, I managed to fix my cleft palate free-of-charge after 6 years of surgery. I never paid a penny. Let's see how many Americans can say that.

This was a great clip but too bad most people who post comments in here will probably never get past Michael's "political views" and see beyond that.

I find it comical that you people argue about the most inane things and disregards the biggest issue.

You Americans prove to me evertyime that you are a country that focuses too much on the "Me" rather than "We." The imaginary notion that the USA is some sort of United country makes me laugh. Why?

Because here you are bickering about Michael's views or how Bush gets more idiotic everyday.

I doubt you Americans will ever be united. Probably within the next 10 years, you people will segregate each other further and further. Democrats vs Republicans, Atheist vs Religious fanatics.

You guys can't seem to get past the smallest of issue and just bicker on and on about non-important things.

In regards to the health care issue, I see Americans starting to realize how messed up it is but will probably forget. Columbine didn't teach you guys anything.

Personally, I enjoy the free health care I receive. Heck, I managed to fix my cleft palate free-of-charge after 6 years of surgery. I never paid a penny. Let's see how many Americans can say that.

MrAl,

TANSTAAFL

Look it up.

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Of course there is no such thing as a free lunch. There is no such thing as "free" medical care or anything else. But the pure profit motive system is NOT working. Who and how the paying is done is a huge part of the problem. It's inefficent, full of corruption, and simply put, you pay much more for lots less.

Americans spend more on health than anyone else yet the level of care is low relative to other industrialized countries. The equation doesn't balance.

To catch up to the world, Americans are going to have to find a way to unite on the isssue. We weren't "given" universal health care in Canada. It was the result of a long, hard fought political battle. A long long hard fight.

I disagree with Mr Al's long term conclussion but his response is a good example of what I said previously regarding why so many think of Americans as stupid. It isn't a lack of brain cells it's a lack of focus, direction, and serious thinking that goes beyond the surface of things.

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tanstaafl, Heinleinese.

According to quantum geniuses (genii?) the entire universe(s) is a free lunch. There is such a thing as a free lunch. You've been eating it up at the fastest rate in history.

All the wealth "created" by entrepreneurs? Looted, from the recyclement of second generation stars, mostly stolen from out from under third worlders, Saudis being exceptional in actually getting a piece for themselves.

The United States were supposed to be States, instead they were colonized by the blue coats. The 'States' became Colonies. Overseas Imperialism, something to keep the blue-coats occupied after the Indian/"terrorist" wars. Kill Filipinos, grab Hawaii. We had no business being in Pearl Harbor in the first place. How can you be proud of that?

German intellectuals, such as Heinrich "Eternal-return" Heine were able to see the United States of Germany's flaws decades before the jingoing flagwaving t4ts of the time could. Mr. Nietzsche even went so far as to invent a phony Polish (przmysl wanny fony-balony?) pedigree for himself. Even the slow-witted Dr. Einstein renounced his citizenship and became a stateless man-without-a-country-looking-for-a-country-without-a-man (the Moon?), he loathed what Germany was becoming so much.

See what the "elites" are saying about America, and you will see what Everyman will see looking back on U.S., from when the facts of the matter are no longer under-the-rug-sweepable.

TISATAAFL!

Stop wasting it on egoism/jingoism/consumerism. Before it's too late. You ingrate/enfants.

Terror-biles.

Moore elitism, please!

Our system is broken, plain and simple. I can't even believe that there are folks who would disagree. Insurance companies make billions off of health care yet they don't treat a single patient. This is the problem.

Michael Moore sounds like a completely reaonable person on this issue--unlike his detractors. If he was after money he'd sell-out and make some dumb Hollywood movie like Spiderman and make more off one film than he will in his career making cool documentaries that lots of people love.

As for teafortherightwingclown, I just wonder why you don't hang out with kindred spirits over at rushlimbaugh.com or Fox News.

Sorry for the delayed reply- I've been having a real busy week.

What made me see the light? The simple fact that we pay more, yet get less, than other nations. Something is broken here.

Don't get me wrong: I remain anti-fed, and leery of socialism.

To share some detail regarding my perspective; I am soon-to-be married to an RN nurse. We lived in NY before coming down to Florida. NY is a very pro-socialist state, and she complained endlessly about the endless bureaucracy and bull$#it regulations. For example: incompetent nurses who had embedded themselves within the system, and thus, were immune from the firing they deserved.

Down here in FL she works at a private, for-profit hospital, and has been very happy with the no-bull$#it attitude they take towards incompetence. My fallacy was focusing on this issue through the eyes of a nurse, and not those of a patient.

Here in FL we have an enormous population of elderly people on social security- fixed incomes. These people are slowly being forced out of their homes due to rising property taxes and home insurance costs. I happen to agree with the "Greatest Generation" pov, and feel these people deserve better. Every week there is another story in the paper about some elderly person eating cat food and taking half-doses of medicine in order to survive.

Mind you: this is socialism in practice- medicare, medicaid, social security. The result? A WWII vet being forced to eat pet food.

However, I have accepted that the "free market" is not always the answer to every question. One Evil Axis has a great line above: "Capitalism is like fire. In its place, Promethean gift-giveness".

Should people attempt to profit from life and death situations? No.

Has the Government proven itself to be better at fulfilling these needs than the free market? No.

So, like I said, I remain cautious. The best solution I have to offer is more education. I will watch Moore's film, as I watched "Roger & Me", "Columbine" and "9/11". I will read the Obama plan. Some of you may be pleased to know I just finished Kucinich's "Prayer for America". There are valid ideas here. All the same, I have not been impressed with our Government's performance thus far (and as best I can tell, neither has anyone else).

I propose this: I will eliminate my knee-jerk pro-capitalism responses, you eliminate your knee-jerk pro-socialism responses, and together we will fix this. As my grandpappy said: somewhere in the middle lies the truth.

Hey Zaphod,

Congrats on the engagement - I'm married to a nurse (ICU) and never grow tired of the stories she shares when she gets home from work (people do some pretty stupid things to themselves - many are quite comical). HIPAA doesn't have jurisdiction in our house ;}

I agree with much of what you said but am hoping you might concede one point:

Your soon to be wife and my wife both attempt to and are very successful at profiting from life and death situations.

In an earlier thread, you stated nurses deserve every penny they make (or something to that effect). I agree with that too. For all practical purposes, our wives are no different than for-profit sole proprietor small business owners who invested several years (and tens of thousands of dollars) amassing assets (skills) and are now profiting from that investment quite nicely.

Many would say I'm nit picking here but you also pointed out there are many incompetent nurses out there who are very hard to get rid of in public hospitals. Imagine all the hospitals were public. What ever corporate profits society may save might just be replaced by paying thousands of incompetent nurses to stay behind a desk so they won't kill anyone instead of just firing them like most non-union hospitals would.

Syngas:

Thanks. Marrying a nurse is the smartest thing I've ever done (good people, good souls, good karma).

I do believe that good nurses (like our spouses) are underpaid, and deserve every cent (and more). I also feel it is immoral to profit from life-and-death. You have caught me in an apparent contradiction.

To clarify: I am using "profit" in the return-on-investment, passive income sense of the word. Obviously our spouses "profit" from the immense investments they have made in their careers (as well they should), however, this is not the same as me profiting by receiving dividends or gains in exchange for capital investment (having done no actual work besides accepting risk).

And for the record: my wife was a nurse long before she became an RN. It is simply her nature to be a healer. I'm sure a nice standard of living contributes to her decision, but I doubt most nurses are "in it for the money". There are plenty of easier ways to make money.

I also agree with your other concerns:

  1. What will happen to healthcare salaries once the system is socialized?

  2. How do we eliminate the "bad apples" from the system, once Uncle Sam steps in?

  3. How will these changes affect students who have not yet decided on a career? Will these changes scare a few into other careers? Worse still- will these changes attract bad nurses looking for job security in exchange for minimal effort?

I saw an article in the local paper today that claimed that the costs of private hospitals were actually lower than those of public hospitals, even though private hospitals pay higher salaries. Not sure if this is simply pro-capitalism propaganda, but it rings true. Would it be possible to construct a system that provided care for all Americans, without removing the free-market incentives of competition? A hybrid of the two might very well be the best solution (if such a thing is even possible).

Note to Norm: when you get back from Vegas, what say you expand the width of this text box? (or is this little box your not-so-subtle way of telling me to stop rambling?)

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Anyone who watches this and takes it seriously has already agreed that there are problems with the current healthcare practices. Oprah doesn't know because she is rich. The audience of Ms.O are there to be entertained. Frankly, this movie will not change current healthcare regulations. As long ascooperations are filling their cofers with money that we willingly give them because we futally hope they will treat us as indivivduals and not numbers there will be no reformation. We as Americans need to stand up and wipe our rose colored glasses off and see that we have given our power to people who do not care rather we live or die because they are the precious few that will be treated as humans and not numbers. Storm the castle! Demand that we are once again a shining country that cares about its people.

Should I bring a hammer or a sickle or both?

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t4t writes:"Michael Moore has no credibility. He is exhorbitantly rich, and has openly admitted to his own greed and to loving his wealth. He owned stock in Halliburton. He is from a rich neighborhood and pretended to be from Flint. He openly lied in all of his movies, and used camera trickery and staged scenes to give false impressions. He is a propagandist. The fact that you agree with the goal of his propaganda does not make his methods any less deceitful, nor the man himself any more respectable."

gee, t4t, sounds like you're talking about america itself. and i thought you were a patriot.

moore is, for better or worse, "america". i personally love the fact that he can get rich by biting the hand that feeds him. and that you (we) can hate his guts personally while discussing the issues he brings up which would otherwise have remained non-issues, if not for his greed.

Profiting from death:

http://www.plannedparenthood.org/files/PPFA/Annual_report.pdf

Page 16 puts most for-profit's to shame.

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