That is a one-sided article that I find rather anti-semitic. Hamas, Islamin Jihad will never recognize israel and will continue to send rockets, bombs, etc. I blame them for the poor quality of life.

maybe americans shouldn't buy american produce either -- i don't think i like my country's "behavior."

those militant groups, incl. hamas, are every bit as responsible for keeping the Pals impoverished. remember how arafat pilfered $900 million from 1995-2000? that's just the beginning.

Does "Comment is free" mean you don't necessarily agree with that article? If so, I'm gald, but I'm still very disappointed you'd post it. This call for boycotts, this demonization, has been growing since Arafat rejected the Camp David accords -- without a counter offer -- in 2000, and has been growing, until it has infected even level-headed sites like One Good Move.

First of all, where are the calls for boycotts against Saudi Arabia and Iran? We don't need to mention what they do to their homosexual citizens, to their women, or how their Jewish populations are discriminated against (or maybe we do). There are no other calls for boycotts, espeically academic boycotts.

Secondly, while I think the occupation of the West Bank is a nasty bit of aquiescence to the far right Jewish community of Israel, and a major obstacle to peace, the idea that the occupation shows a "total disregard for human rights" and that it's "apartheid" is complete nonsense.

Until 1967 Jordan treated the Palestinians under its occupation horrendously -it was literally a prison camp, as was Gaza under the Egyptians. No calls for boycotts of Jordan and Egypt for their occupations. No calls for boycotts in the dozens of other places that treat thier minorities or occupied peoples much, much worse than the Israelis.

(It's tiring to point out again and again how much better life in the occupied territories is - in terms of life expectancy, employment, medical care - than it was under the Egyptians and the Jordanians, and tiring too to hear the retort "Oh, so you think the occupation is good for them?!")

Do we need to mention what's happened to Gaza - including life expectancy, employment, education, medical care - after Israel pulled out? People find ways to explain the civil war between Fatah and Hamas on Israel to "Look at the lengths the Hamas and Fatah have been driven to by the unilateral withdrawl of Israel! They shouldn't have withdrawn." The majority of the misery of the Palestians can be blamed on their leaders - I'm sure they wouldn't mind a share of the 20 million dollars Arafat's widow gets every year to replace the money that went to buy arms that should have fixed the sewers which exploded and killed a dozen people in the winter because of disrepair. Worked when Israel was occupying.

Apartheid is a word, like fascism, that has been tossed around by everyone until it has come to mean mean "a style of governing I dislike". Apartheid was meant to keep blacks disenfranchised, while Arab citizens of Israel - 20 percent of the population - have equal rights and 10 percent of the seats in the Knesset and Justice in the supreme court. (Yes, they should probably have 20 percent to of the Knesset although It's possible they vote Labour strategically to hold off Likud.) The Palestinians in the West Bank do not have these rights (although they have many, if not enough). If you want the right of citizenship for Palestinians, call on Hamas to recognize Israel, make peace, and make a country. They got a great offer in 2000, and Hamas could, if they prefered their own state more than they prefer the desctruction of Israel, they could get peace talks again.

Finally, to single out Israel - however bad their actions are, and they can be bad indeed - in the face of much worse from other countries in the Mid East and all over the world (an academic boycott of China over Tibet hasn't been heard from, or at least doesn't get much press or sarcastic, sneering editorials in the Guardian, nor about Turkey over the Kurds, or Sudan) to single out Israel uniquely for this is, indeed, simply anti-semitic. Criticising Israel is important; making them the Jew of nations can only come from antisemitism. (No one is saying "criticising Israel is not antisemitic" here.)

To not call out this creeping antisemitism -- yes, it is on the rise all over the world -- is shameful. That is exactly how you'd expect it to start: "Well, we just want to hear both sides and get your comments", until this opinion becomes a legitimate one. Oh, wait, it already has. Next it becomes the dominant one, as it has in much of the world already.

Say anything about Israel that isnt praise and its labeled anti semitism. Just a handy way of shutting down any discussion.

If any other democracy was treating people the way Israel does they would be rightly critiscised.

If any kcan find the video of this Channel 4 documentary its a glimpse of what Paestinians have to deal with everyday. Sickening.

http://www.channel4.com/culture/microsites/C/canyoubelieve_it/debates/holyland2.html

Oops link is broken:

http://www.channel4.com/culture/microsites/C/canyoubelieve_it/debates/holyland2.html

Does "Comment is free" mean you don't necessarily agree with that article? If so, I'm gald, but I'm still very disappointed you'd post it.

Let me disappoint you then. The idea that you apparently think that I shouldn't post anything to places Israel in a bad light is absurd. Do I think a boycott of agricultural goods a good idea, I'm not sure. A boycott on some arms I definitely think a good idea. Israel's use of cluster bombs in Lebanon recently was criminal, and yes as to the west bank I think it is very much like apartheid and that is a pretty damn good description of what is taking place. If Israel doesn't want rockets fired at them then get the hell out of palestinian territories. There is certainly enough reasons to blame the Palestinians for many of the problems of the region, but to excuse Israel's role in that is just plain wrong. I'm so tired of the standard Israel apologist line they do it too line. The fact that Palestinian's are culpable is no reason not to criticize Israel, nor the converse. The argument is fallacious http://onegoodmove.org/fallacy/attack.htm

Criticizing Israel is not anti-semetic. The attempts to portray it as such are dishonest.

howtoplayalone -- couldya send me the fucking cliffs notes?

Oh Ben, Ben, Ben. Please help me out. What is a non-confrontational name that I should use for a shrill mock-advocate whom does not understand the injustices as laid out in an argument? (Apologies in advance for the intended argumentum ad hominem smackdown.)

In this case, the injustice (state sponsored apartheid) is very well defined and documented virtually beyond dispute (analogous to evolution with so very much evidence; and also like evolution, the only people who seem to disagree with it are the ignorant and/or the faithful).

Ben, as a "mock-advocate" you avoid tacit acknowledgement of the illustrated wrongs as a way to correct future behaviour. Instead, your argument offers only red-herring rebuttals intended to cloud the argument (and other real issues) with weak, face-saving rationalizations: "My despicable group's actions are better than the ravages of the previous despicable groups".

Whoopty frickin' ding.

I'm reasonably sure that the UN Charter dictates the clear responsibility of the occupying power for the proper humanitarian care of indigenous or displaced persons of war or occupation—regardless of how you phrase it, or how many laws to create to hide behind, this is the situation in reality.

Cripes Ben, get over it. The "behaviour" sponsored by the state of Israel "is the cause" of rightly justified condemnation of the thinking world. Your continuing counsel, sooooooo very tiring that it is, is that others fundamentally misunderstand the situation and then misidentify the truly persecuted. And then, all too predictably, you follow this by threatening accusations of anti-Semitism of any non like-minded points of view. Tsk. Tsk.

(Caveat: If I don't say here "…but not always - some diatribe do indeed cross the line and are truly intolerant and therefore anti-Semitic"; if I don't say this, then how much more do I risk even this fair comment as being tainted by your widely swathed brush of anti-Semitism? Hmmm.)

Ben, this patterned argument you set forth really does nothing to better your cause in the minds of the thinking man. The repetition of your shrill partisan claim is at the tolerance level of fingernails on a blackboard. It hurts your case. Stop it.

So instead, I make of you the following request (hmmm, atonement?): Instead of taking your usual mock-advocate (and smear) position, why not give us what you would do and believe should be done for your family and loved ones if you found yourself in the typical position of a Palestinian; i.e., if you were the one living under occupation that restricted your freedom of movement and life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. What would you desire, nay, demand as basic human rights?

Would it be fair, perchance, to apply the same rights, freedoms, and citizenship enjoyed by the citizens of the State of Israel to the Palestinian population in general? Would that not be fair? If not, why not?

In your utopian response, I suggest that you ignore the seemingly current political realities between Fatah & Hamas, as I'm certain that we can each acknowledge these "realities" can be easily manufactured and manipulated to achieve political interests (they are all the time!).

Instead, answer the question: What would Moses do?

Moses would probably beg Elohim for some Cliffnotes. Jeeebus.

LOL - Okay Dzwonka, I should quit using the Dragon NaturallySpeaking. Here are the cliff Notes:

Ben, me thinks you are trying to gloss over the real issue of state sponsored apartheid by Israel. Your justification that other neighbouring states have done worse to the Palestinians is laughable.

Either purposefully or ignorantly, you post attempts to both delude and admonish the reader by taking the following flow of reasoning:

1. fundamentally misrepresent the world-view situation, and then
2. misattribute the truly persecuted to be, at least in some equal or greater measure, the Israelis themselves. Then all too predictably …
3. you follow this by libel-chill style, threatening accusations of anti-Semitism of any non like-minded points of view.

We've all seen it before. Too often. Pathetic and tiring really.

So maybe you have a better “solution”. Please share with us your world view: If you were the one living under occupation that restricted your freedom of movement and life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness, what would you desire, nay, demand as basic human rights?

Would it be fair, perchance, to apply the same rights, freedoms enjoyed by the citizens of the State of Israel to the Palestinian population in general?

Would that not be fair? If not, why not?

Mick,

I couldn't get your link to work but I think I found it elswhere.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ul4UecZThH4&eurl=

I think it is nearly impossible for many westerners to image what life is for Palestinians and how fundamentally wrong and unfoir for them to be squashed into the firghtening exestence they have.

We can't image those twenty four hour curfues that go on for days. No school, no play, no work. You get arrested, maybe shot for sneaking out to buy a pack of smokes. Kids get arrested and often killed trying to play.

You can't imagine having numberous and I mean numerous members of your immediate and exteneded family killed and others in prisons, largely for the crime of being born to the wrong group of people.

The circumstances create dispair, dispair creates the suicidal responses to a life not worth living any more.

I do not claim to have a simple solution that can be spelled out in these comment sections. The proverbial grapes of wrath have been sown far and wide.

I can well imagine that it would take three or more generations of internationally regulated and enforced peace for the two people to ever live in harmony after so much violence has been done.

I find it humourous that my opposition to what the mainly European Jews are doing to the local semite population makes me an anti-semite. I larf in your general direction.

I don't want Israelis to feel guilt about their major role in this horror. I want them to start recognizing the reality of what they are doing and the reality it has foisted upon their neighbors. And do something real about it. Something other than the 'final solution' plan they seem to be currently committed to.

Wow, I didnt know I would have so much opposition as a democrat on here!

I should have mentioned that I am from Israel and have family there now. I firmly believe that no matter what israel does, it will always be the center of controversy in the muslim world, and it will continue to be threatened, attacked, and bombed. My family has seen innocent israeli children die from suicide bombers...so is that justified? How about hamas brainwashing their children to hate israel when they are too young to think? Of course israel will continue to retaliate militarily, but it will always be known as the terrorist in the eyes of iran and others just because of its "occupation" of muslim land.

If someone wants to send me a legitamate, independent report of widespread human rights violations by israel, i will be the first to criticize the state, but I have just as many jewish websites that show otherwise.

For those accusing me of ignorance, I want all the facts. As a "dawkins" atheist, I will gladly modify my position when confronted with solid evidence. But right now, speaking from personal experience and the facts i currently have, I have chosen to support israel.

How about hamas brainwashing their children to hate israel when they are too young to think?

How about Israel teaching their children like these two to hate is on both sides.

Israel's use of cluster bombs

if you simply did a little research of your own you would quickly discover many documented cases of Israeli crimes. The fact that you haven't done it to date leads one to doubt your sincerity.

"The idea that you apparently think that I shouldn't post anything to places Israel in a bad light is absurd."

I did not "apparently" say that, I explicitly said that's not what I meant, and that criticizing Israel is important.

"Do I think a boycott of agricultural goods a good idea, I'm not sure. A boycott on some arms I definitely think a good idea."

It's your site, you can call for whatever you like. It's not fallacious to point out you do not - not in this post, but it seems ever in any post, or in an amount similar to how much you attack Israel - call for similar boycotts on all the countries that are much worse.

"Israel's use of cluster bombs in Lebanon recently was criminal"

So are Hezbollah's and Hamas' intended killing of as many civilians as they can - where are they criticized at least to the extent Israel is (on your site)? (No one says you need to qualify every post - that's the fallacy you want to accuse me of - but in all your posts, where do you call for similar punishments of worse offenses?)

"I think it is very much like apartheid"

OK, where do you criticize the "apartheid"-like and much worse camps of Lebanon, Jordan and Syria? Where are they even mentioned?

"If Israel doesn't want rockets fired at them then get the hell out of palestinian territories."

They're not in Lebanon or Gaza, and that didn't stop the rockets. Do you really trust Hamas - which in their charter says no negotiations or peace ever with Israel, and also accuses Jews of the international conspiracy of the Lion's Club - will change their charter if Israel pulls out of the West Bank?

"There is certainly enough reasons to blame the Palestinians for many of the problems of the region, but to excuse Israel's role in that is just plain wrong."

Who excused Israel? I said singling out Israel for boycotts is wrong, and that Hamas was untrustable. I did a quick search on your site and find you criticizing Israel out of all proportion to what Israel does, especially when compared with the countries that do more.

As far as being fallacioius, the amount of hypocrisy is relevant to the point I'm making. You were not saying "Look at the cluster bombs", you were saying "Boycott Israel".

Once again, criticizing Israel is not antisemitic, and no one said it was. Calling for Israel to be punished and ostracized way out of proportion, while neglecting to call for similar punishments on other countries for worse crimes, is antisemitic.

And Norm, do you really think Israel brainwashes their children anywhere near as much as the Palestinians do? Be honest.

Because while this

http://onegoodmove.org/1gm/1gmarchive/2006/07/teachyourchil.html

was very nasty indeed, many or most Israelis were ashamed, as was I. That is, however one of the few cases you can show of "brainwashing" of Israeli children, and it's pretty mild.

Meanwhile, every week there's a new unimaginably disgusting video with children from Palestine. Take you pick. Here's on, see if you can sit through it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uAyZCY-hwRs

These are not kids likely to grow up to recognize Israel or make peace.

The absurdity of claiming innocence in such cases becomes apparent when the death tolls from "collateral damage" reach figures far greater than the lists of the dead from even the most awful act of terrorism. Thus, the "collateral damage" in the Gulf War caused more people to die- hundreds of thousands, if you include the victims of our sanctions policy-than the very deliberate terrorist attack of September 11. The total of those who have died in Israel from Palestinian terrorist bombs is somewhere under 1,000. The number of dead from "collateral damage" in the bombing of Beirut during Israel's invasion of Lebanon in 1982 was roughly 6,000.

What the hell is this obsession with balance. The idea that every criticism of any group needs to be balanced by criticism of another group is absurd. You speak of balance, well the Israeli position, much of which I agree, dominates the U.S. Media and doesn't need my contribution. I've acknowledged on numerous occasions my distaste for Palestinian tactics and feel no need to repeat myself.

Calling for Israel to be punished and ostracized way out of proportion, while neglecting to call for similar punishments on other countries for worse crimes, is antisemitic.

What the hell are you talking about. Compare our (U.S.) policy vis-a-vis Iran and Palestine with how we treat Israel. The punishment is way out of proportion is right, but in the opposite direction. You couldn't resist it could you, the fucking charge of anti-semitism rears its ugly head once again? Shame on you.

Many a time the line is blurred between "us" versus "them." It's important to take a step back and see that just as calling the U.S. invasion of Iraq "unpatriotic" is absurd, so is calling for the withdrawl of Israeli troops from occupying territories "anti-Semetic."

Spelling error: "Semitic"

Once the Palestinians decides to love their own children as much as they hate the Jews, it'll all be over.

You know I have done plenty of research, and i have certainly found documented crimes and violations by israel, but it is overall a fair and just society. They could certainly do more to limit damage to palestinian civillians, but will that stop hamas and hezbollah?

“One does not judge a democracy by the way its soldiers immediately react, young men and women under tremendous provocation. One judges a democracy by the way its courts react, in the dispassionate cool of judicial chambers. And the Israeli Supreme Court and other courts have reacted magnificently. For the first time in Mideast history, there is an independent judiciary willing to listen to grievances of Arabs — that judiciary is called the Israeli Supreme Court.”

— Alan Dershowitz

Alan Dershowitz (of whom I was a fan) also said ANY critiscism of Israel was anti semitism. Crazy right? I heard him say it myself on Irish radio.

The program I mentioned (Battle for the holy land: Love thy neighbour) is here:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2107855427036544147&q=rod+liddle

Check it out, I cant recommend it highly enough. I would like to hear anyone whos watched it try to defend Israeli policy in this regard.

All I can say is thank sockpuppets that I wasnt born in that part of the world.

"On March 11, 2002 Dershowitz published an article in The Jerusalem Post entitled 'Responding to Palestinian Terrorism,' in which he proposes 'an immediate unilateral cessation in retaliation against terrorist attacks' and, 'following the end of the moratorium,' the institution of a 'new policy if Palestinian terrorism were to resume': as 'an example,' he says, Israel 'could announce the first act of terrorism following the moratorium will result in the destruction of a small village which has been used as a base for terrorist operations. The residents would be given 24 hours to leave, and then troops will come in and bulldoze all of the buildings.'

"Dershowitz's 'proposal' stimulated much criticism at Harvard University and beyond. In an article considering Dershowitz's book Why Terrorism Works: Understanding the Threat, Responding to the Challenge (which reprints Dershowitz's Jerusalem Post article) and books by others, The Washington Post columnist James Bamford observes that 'the Israeli government's program of collective punishment against the Palestinians –– demolishing the homes of innocent relatives of those involved in suicide bombing,' which Dershowitz 'analyzed' in that book, is 'a practice outlawed under international law.'

"In his book Beyond Chutzpah, Norman Finkelstein comments: 'It is hard to make out any difference between the policy Dershowitz advocates and the Nazi destruction of Lidice, for which he expresses abhorrence-except that Jews, not Germans, would be implementing it.'"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alan_Dershowitz

Dennett is worth reading on the subject of....

I think it was....

Got it! Memory. Stay away from Carl Sagan's favorite weed, and make Dennett your favorite read, if you want to have some terrific memories about the subject of, memory.

Off the subject, but, Dzwonka, is your last name by any chance...

Zappa?

the fifth comment down in the talkback for the article, by "sarahleah", pretty much expresses my views on this subject and incidentally, norm, throws back in your face your recent "clever" question about whether, if hitler had invented the toilet, one should crap in their pants. the whole thing is hypocritical and disgusting and your whining about how "criticizing" israel isn't anti-semitisim is getting pretty tedious. it doesnt apply here anyway- calling for a boycott of ALL israeli goods (read the article, and your own comment which you tried to backtrack from) or any israeli goods, for that matter, is not criticism. what is the criticism here, anyway? this comment of yours "If Israel doesn't want rockets fired at them then get the hell out of palestinian territories" is just plain ridiculous. israel did pull out of gaza, an incredibly painful, expensive and frankly racist move over a year ago, and where are all these rockets being fired from? gaza.

as you know, norm, i cut you a lot of slack on this issue as you have in the past demonstrated a pretty open mind but i think you should do more reading and less posting if your well intentioned emotional relationship to justice leads you to post bullshit like this. and don't get me wrong, i'm not against posting it per se but you seem to be advocating a boycott. all due respect, i'm completely disgusted, especially since i thought we had come to an understanding of sorts on the use of the term apartheid in this context. ignorance is nothing to be embarassed about but i thought you had more than enough information at your disposal about both south africas policies and israels in the west bank not to jump on this particular bandwagon. and, just curious, why now, for fucks sake? who do you think you're helping? do you think, for instance that you can tell the difference between products produced by israeli arabs/palestinians and those produced by jews? what the hell brought on this sudden display of idiocy?

and really, blaming israel for militant islamism is just plain stupid. i thought you were smarter than that. is it just fear of the islamists which is scrambling your brains? this is understandable, but no more correct for being so. again, i beg you: do some more reading/research before fucking with peoples (both arab and jewish) lives/livelihoods.

and thomas mccay: i've always liked your stuff here, but: as far as all this "you can't imagine" buisiness: no, YOU really can't imagine. if you recall i live here. and if you care whether i take you seriously in the future at all, i'll expect a retraction of that "final solution" comment.

really, what the fuck is going on here, people? did i miss something? israel is undergoing daily rocket barrages and responding in a more restrained fashion than any other country i can think of. i'm not saying they're saints, but why this sudden attack? again, a boycott is NOT criticism- its an attack. what am i missing here?

your whining about how "criticizing" israel isn't anti-semitisim is getting pretty tedious.

I'll quit criticizing the charge when the apologists quit making it unfairly.

As to messing with peoples livelyhood. When they start electing leaders that support a fair peace I'll consider it. I wasn't backing off the idea of a boycott. I hadn't make up my mind if I thought it was worthwhile.

As to cutting me slack, and the rest of your smary condescension, consider this a very polite fuck you. I suppose if someone was to advocate cutting off foreign aid to Israel you would consider that an attack too, and anti-semitic to boot.

Claiming boycotting Israel is anti-semitic is like claiming boycotting the U.S. is anti-christian.

Mick,

I will surely check out the video you have posted, but I have lived in Israel and I am aware of many of their military tactics, some I dissagree with.

"if you simply did a little research of your own you would quickly discover many documented cases of Israeli crimes. The fact that you haven't done it to date leads one to doubt your sincerity.

Posted by: Norm"

I'm dissapointed that you would make this assertion and criticize my integrity. I am not here to pick and chose facts to support israel with "blind faith." I aknowlege israeli crimes, but I strongly support israel while being critical, because I know what its like to live there. Your comparison of brainwashing israeli children is ludicrous and absurd at the least. Try putting yourself through the 7 minutes of this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ul4UecZThH4&eurl=

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Em-MnAYiEWk&mode=related&search=

INSTEAD OF BOYCOTTING produce, LETS BOYCOTT THAT

I'm dissapointed that you would make this assertion and criticize my integrity. I am not here to pick and chose facts to support israel with "blind faith." I aknowlege israeli crimes, but I strongly supportisrael while being critical, because I know what its like to live there. Your comparison of brainwashing israeli children is ludicrous and absurd at the least.

I didn't criticize your integrity, but rather your sincerity as it relates to your claim not to pick and choose facts. It is quite a pathetic argument to answer charges against Israel with others are worse. I seldom see acknowledgement that Israel is wrong without the inevitable but someone else is worse, or they do it too. As to which side does the best job brainwashing their children that is complicated. You tell me, are Israeli children taught that they have some god given right to the West Bank? It seems clear that the level of exhibiting the brainwashing is in proportion to the amount of violence they suffer day to day. Israelis on average deal with far less violence than Palestinian children and so exhibit less of the overt signs of the anger that engenders. I think if the numbers of dead and maimed on the Israeli side were equal to the number of the Palestinian side you'd see similar reactions. As a Palestinian child if your father is associated with Hamas then Israel apparently feels no qualms about bombing your house whether Dad is there or not, and if you survive you can watch your mother and brothers and sisters die. Israel drops a one ton bomb on an apartment complex to kill a single terrorist and in doing so creates even more. Israel with some justification invades Gaza and blows up a power station, an action that is directed primarily against civilians. The list of atrocities is endless, and YES THERE IS PERHAPS AN EVEN LONGER LIST OF ATROCIOUS BEHAVIOR BY PALESTINIANS.

I didn't criticize your integrity, but rather your sincerity as it relates to your claim not to pick and choose facts. It is quite a pathetic argument to answer charges against Israel with others are worse. I seldom see acknowledgement that Israel is wrong without the inevitable but someone else is worse, or they do it too.

I certainly agree that Israel's violations of human rights and excessive force should be analyzed, scrutinized, and fixed. Taking the moral high ground is the best course of action, and again, I have been critical of some of these policies in the past. But when Israel is attacked, it has the absolute legitamate right to retaliate.

As to which side does the best job brainwashing their children that is complicated. You tell me, are Israeli children taught that they have some god given right to the West Bank? It seems clear that the level of exhibiting the brainwashing is in proportion to the amount of violence they suffer day to day.

That is one of the most ludicrous things I have ever heard, and I am embarassed to be a liberal when I hear stuff like that. Do you know the definition of brainwash??? If you watched the videos I posted, you would see that it shows the opposite of your argument. Hamas doesnt care about peace or better quality of life for palestinians. They are terrorists who indoctrinate young children with weapons, images of hate, violence, blood, bombs, the view that Israel is the source of all problems, and that suicide bombing is justified because it the afterlife that counts. Truly amazing how you can compare that to bible study in the Israeli school system. No, we are not taught a god given right to land.

No, we are not taught a god given right to land.

Someone is teaching it for I believe it is a common view of fundamentalist Jews.

There is no brainwashing more pernicious than religious brainwashing for there the authority is God, unquestioned and unquestionable.

You are the one that insists on the comparisons. They are both wrong, one arguably more than the other. Your constant need to compare is simply a way of justifying Israeli excesses. Just make a single comment where you unequivocably condemn Israel for something, anything while at the same time not resorting to BUT THE PALESTINIANS ARE WORSE.

Jonathan, I'm not here to win your respect so that's a pretty feeble threat.

If there weren't so many Israelis in government and the military who who either are or want to continue the final solution scenario, I would never have made the comment. I'm not going to play Jimmy Carter here and retract the statement because it offends someone.

I meet a number of displaced people and Israeli dual citizens on a regular basis. That's the nature of Vancouver.

I know several Isralis here who are consistantly liberal on every topic except Palestinians and then they sound exactly like the Southern Baptist red necks I grew up with in Alabama.

"The only good one is a dead one. There will be peace when the Palistinians find the peace of the grave. They are animals and like animals only understand violence," etc.

Even "they don't care about death like the rest of us".

That was a common excuse for killing so many civilian 'gooks' in Vietnam. I was there for that one, Vietnam that is.

I don't have a hate on for the Jewish people of Isreal and do not want to see Isreal destroyed. Not even the ones with the religious version of the nazi ideas of race and power.

I also have zero love for Muslim extremists and their fellow travelers.

I will happily quit making the final solution camparison when Isreal quits implementing it.

Yes, I know there are elements in Israeli society and politics that are not represented by current policy just as there are many Palestinians not consumed with hatred and dreams of revenge.

That instant disrespect for anyone who seriously disagrees with you is a reflection of the kind of final solution thinking I am talking about.

I didn't realize the kind of people who read this site talked that way - "final solution"? It's creepy people like Thomas McCay are out there, and feel so comfortable talking that way. For the other commenters who are taking the 'boycott side', I would think it'd be time to speak up, as in that is indeed antisemitic, but I think that's unlikely.

(The idea that "antisemitic" means any prejudice against any people who are "semitic" is either deceitful and meant to remove that accusation of ever being said at all, or ignorant.)

If Mick has a link to this:

"Alan Dershowitz (of whom I was a fan) also said ANY critiscism of Israel was anti semitism. Crazy right? I heard him say it myself on Irish radio."

I'd love to see, or hear, it. I've never been a fan of his either way, but I'm pretty sure that "ANY" comment is just slanderous.

I won't comment or read comments on this site again, although I'll await Mick's.

Holy shit, Norm IS having a moment... Dang.

Wow, Norm. You're censoring stuff...

Dude. Stop if.

Platitudes against platitudes, round and round:

When it comes right down to it the whole world is "a land without people for a people without a land". If you're clever enough with words you can rationalize anything. Just define "Us" and "Them," and off you go. "Them" being "people" who aren't people, not really. Look how they act when you treat them the way that you know will make the act the way they act.

I have no doubt that I... I am Them, of Themish ancestry, so...

Population goes up, definition becomes important.

Gaza is by the way a population density world champ, tied with Rwanda (but which HAS water).

Be fruitful and multiply. But when you start going off the reservation...

South Afrikaaners were also chosen by God. Why NOT boycott any Deal-Machers who compromised themselves by compromising with the Rabbis, Rebbes, whatever, from the get-go? This was cool? Apartheid should be pronounced Apart"hate". It is Dutch, not German (Irony upon Irony). And I have a pretty good idea (Klezmer C.D.s) how it is pronounced in Yiddish. Modern Hebrew probably doesn't even have the word,except ironically.

Jimmy Carter was right about EVERYTHING (even the CAP water in the southwest, which made these abominable "settlements", right here, feasible).

Also, Anti-Judaism isn't Anti-Semitism (neither is Anti-Zionism). Neither are pretty. But the Abrahamic religions are a Three headed monster, reflected in the mirror or not. Call 'em "Cerberus" for all I care.

Call me pro-Hercules.

And take your fake-tard faux-primitive tribe(s) straight to Hades.

!

:{

playsalone, did you actually read and understand what i said? I get the impression from your response that you didn't.

Creepy that people like me are out there? In case you didn't get it, I wasn't suggesting the proverbial final solution, i say i see it in action carried out from religious and racial extremists in the Israeli government.

If saying it is creepy, how creepy is the friggin' reality?

From your response i can't tell if you understand but take offense or if you read one prhase and thought you knew what was being said.

Or maybe you're very sheltered and think it's creepy for people to say things you don't like.

whoa. since my previous posts at this thread were emotionally based (since i am jewish, and do live in the west bank and do support israel- though far, far from unequivically or unquestioningly) and since the time i have been able to devote to internet play is increasingly limited, i just want to make a few unequivical position statements.

one, i don't think anti-zionism and anti-semitism are the same thing. i think criticism of israel is absolutely legitimate and that there are plenty of good reasons for it, though i am very sensitive as to who is making it and why.

two, i am not a newcomer to this blog and have great respect for norm, no matter that we disagree on many things, often having to do with israel. my interest in the blog began during this last lebanon war. i had many sharp exchanges with him, and anyone who wishes to call him an anti-semite will have me to contend with. i regret my use of the term "whining" in my recent post here referring to his oversensitivity to accusations of anti-semitism, as well as my sometimes "condescending" tone. these things come from my general shoot-from-the-hip approach to these sorts of internet discussions which i have fallen into, for better or worse, as a result of the astounding levels of pure ignorance i have encountered all over the world regarding the politics and behavior of my adopted country.the constant inverse ratio of simple knowledge of the facts to outright hatred of jews and the jewish state (not necessarily here and certainly not by norm) makes the accusation of anti-semitism a tough call and i try VERY hard not to make it, and have not done so at this thread or, for the most part, at this blog at all. i have a great deal of respect for most of the regular posters here, including (and even especially) thomas mccay. in fact, it's not really about respect- i ENJOY these people and their thoughts, whether i agree or disagree, and assume norm feels the same, or why would any of us bother? yes, thomas, i am aware that my respect, or anyones probably doesn't hold a very high value in your eyes. if it did i probably wouldn't enjoy your contributions so much- nobody loves an ass kisser, after all. which brings me to

three: i humbly suggest that your use of the term "final solution" in this context was ill-advised. it's very simple. "final solution", a phrase coined by the nazis in reference to their plans for the jewish people, refers simply to complete extermination. if you think the israelis are bent on the complete extermination of the palestinian people, i'd be very interested in hearing your explanation as to how this is so, and also why the israelis (the "goliath" in the equation according to norm, an interpretation i disagree with strongly, obviously) seem to be so inefficient at it. not to gain my respect (which admittedly has little value) but...lets say to satisfy my curiosity, as we seem to agree on so many other issues. in any case, i intended no threat.

while i'm on the subject of the other posters here, i should mention that i care not a whit whether one evil axis wishes that me and my people should go to hell and be tortured along the way- i will never deny that i have, since the beginning of my association with this blog appreciated and enjoyed immensely the depth and intricacy of his/her word/idea play, politics be damned.

so what is this about, anyway? just that i was shocked (perhaps) into some ill considered statements by the odd timing and nature of norms' post and his apparant advocation of a boycott of israeli products with no apparant provocation- that is, at a time when israel, for all its faults and bad behaviour is being bombarded daily with crude though deadly missiles from a territory recently evacuated unilaterally, and when the admittedly great suffering of the palestinian people is being perpetrated mostly by their own bretheren. and i would still like to know what brought on this sudden expression of support for international economic sanctons against israel AT THIS PARTICULAR TIME.

thanks for your patience with my wordiness here (and sorry for the lack of cliff notes, d.z.w.:)) but as i said, my access to a computer as well as my time to utilize it is extremely limited these days, and i wanted to make at least a few things as clear as i could.

The link to the boycott story was just a bit of serendipity. A busy day, and the fact that I found the idea of boycotting Israel a possible way to push an issue Israel has seemed less and less interested in lately, peace. Is it even possible for a settlement. It's looking less likely and there are factions on both sides that work at preventing it. I suppose I just don't see the idea of decreased aid or even a boycott as an 'attack' A boycott in the sense of the article was as a political statement not as some declaration of war, and certainly not anti-semitism. I still haven't heard any supporters of Israel address the question: would decreased aid to Israel be considered an attack on Israel. I think it would be nothing more than a statement of disapproval of current policies with the expectation that positive changes would be forthcoming. I can try and understand Jonathan's position, it is difficult to view a subject objectively and dispassionately when you are the target of those who would like to see you dead. And while it is undoubtedly true that the suffering of the palestinian people is in part by their own. I believe Israel's destruction of the infrastructure, as well as the roadblocks Israel has placed in the way of economic growth is at least equal to the Arab on Arab conflict. It is also true that firing missles at Israelis is indiscriminate and wrong, so is the longstanding Israeli penchant for indiscriminate killing of women and children when targeting others. Anyway, I appreciate Jonathan's candor and agree that I appreciate thoughtful views that disagree with my own.

I've been searching for the audio or transcript to the Alan Derhowitz interview I mentioned in my previous posts, which I cant find. I understand its a controversial statement I attributed to Mr. Dershowitz and I may have misquoted him.

It was after September 11 when it happened so the memory fades, but the closest I can find to it is a very short account by Robert Fisk who was on the radio show.

He said this in an article:

"On the night of 11 September 2001, Al Dershowitz of Harvard law school exploded in anger. Robert Fisk, he roared over Irish radio, was a dangerous man. I was "pro-terrorist". I was "anti-American" and that, Dershowitz announced to the people of County Mayo, "is the same as anti-Semitic". "

I spent the best part of an hour looking for it without result. The radio show was "The Last Word" hosted by Eamon Dunphy, a drivetime news and current affairs show.

Apologies if I'm way wrong on this, I dont think I am but without hearing the interview again (and it was fireworks!) I cant be certain.

Jonathan- the phrase final solution was strong and I don't believe for an instant that such thinking describes the mind set of all Israelis.

I still believe the phrase is valid as an analogy of the mind set of many very powerful people in the military and in the government and among a significant portion of Israeli society. Especially among many religious sects. I am also aware of many Orthodox Jews who strongly disagree with Israeli policy regarding Palestinians.

And I know there is plenty of 'final solution' thinking among the Muslim extremists. I've heard the "push them back in to the sea" slogan bounced about as well.

I do understand your sensitivity to the phrase but I do believe it is not completely inappropriate. However, out of respect for yourself, I will consider it and the circumstances more carefully before using the phrase, here and elsewhere.

Oddly enough, one of the Israeli citizens I quoted above, with "the only good one is a dead one" is actually a very close friend. We argue like hell on that subject and over time each has has come to understand, if still disagree about, what the other is saying.

As a child, my home was an armoured well armed fortress. I used to guard the house with a riot gun and an M2 automatic carbine, at night when I was 14.

We were attacked twice in that time, by local Klan types. This was in small town Alabama in 1963-64.

There was a real fear amongst the local white population of a "Black uprising."

States Rights was the battle cry and the Klan was committing terroist acts all over the place, church bombings, murders, etc.

Because my dad was a cop and known to be a strong federalist and ant-nazi, in spite of being a conservative Republican, we became a target in the strong Klan neighborhood I lived in.

I describe that because I do have some understanding of living with that kind of fear and tension, and the kind of thinking it creates.

I also know that kind of thinking is a great danger to everyone, no matter who it comes from. The greater your ability to do damage, the more deadly that thinking is.

There is little equality between your situation and a young Palestinian stuck in what is basically a large concentration camp where you have very little say or control over anything happening to you and your family. Where there is no work, no school. Where even the brightest kids have little or no future.

Take all the feeling you have about your circumstances and seriously try to imagine how strong those feelings would be if you were on the other side of the wire.

Add to that the fact that there, you don't fear the occassional small rocket or lone bomber attacts, but regular attacks with rockets, bombs, planes, helocopters, and tanks.

And remember that most of those people have even less voice with Hamas than you do regarding Israeli policy.

It's a serious clusterfuck for all involved on both sides of the wire. It has become obvious that pinning them in, concentrating them, starving, and killing them is not working.

But it does breed hatred, on both sides.

My huge problem with the Israeli government does not spill over into any kind of bias toward Jews per se. Quite the opposit but I won't explain that here.

I see no quick easy solutions, none at all. But if you want control and suppression of Hamas and such extremist groups, you need a stable functioning government and society in the Palistinian ares. How can that possibly be achieved when Israel consistantly undermines every Palestinian govern ment and constantly destroys the social and economic infrastructure?

Present and past policies are not working. And unless permanent war is the goal, it will never work.

It is absolutely predictable that the present living standards and life styles, enforced by the Israeli military, will continue to breed hatred and what you call terrorism.

People who have little to live for are more willing than those with a future, to give their lives to hopless revenge. It is a fact of human nature that needs to be understood and responded to, if you want the violence and fear to stop.

If Israel wants permanent war, it only has to keep doing what it is doing. If they want peace and security, which I assume they do, massive changes must be made.

On a personal note, Jonathan, I think you are one of the more interesting posters here. While I need no one's respect to say what I think, I have zero desire to create personal animosity with a good contributor to Norm's blog.

One Evil Axis doesn't believe in hell. He used the mythic Hades as an obviously non-real metaphoricism (or whatever the real word is).

80%-90% of your people ("those people") are the easiest to get along with of all people, they have to be to put up with the other 10% (5%, 1%?, westbankers, radio-trash-talkers, Prager, Michael Wiener "Savage," H. Stern, Gene Simmons "Basso profundo", e.g.),or so, keep a sort of social nuclear chain reaction from happening. But I wasn't sociologically, or genetic-component theorizing about that.

With amphicheirous ambiguity, admittedly, I was merely criticising the religiosi, especially the religiosissimi, tutti religiosissimi, senza excepzioni. Bullies in any context.

Forget the boycott, produce is good for you. I'd rather boycott Disney. Eisner? That's a nice Yiddy-up, cosmocrAmerican name, it's certainly not related to the French-Irish confabulosity "D'Eisner"=Disney. Stick Eisner in that 1-10%, for sure. Those...

Je...eesh.

..(w)...

Jeeeesus! Mehhhhmet!, (Whomever)