the correspondant did well covering the story, but the ensuing "discussion" is ridiculous.

can these people be serious?

can we please ban stupidity from the news already? does no one screen guests for their shows anymore?

i think "tool" was an excellent choice of words, as she is being paid to spout this shit.

there was a question raised at another thread here about the contribution, or lack thereof of christian ideology to science. now, i understand that america was founded by christians, and that its' idology was formulated by lapsed christians who used christian metaphors to express and reinforce their ideas of universal equality, etc. but what makes america a "christian country"? i think thats bullshit.

Just wow. I don't even know what to say.

Hope this doesn't offend.

Me being a white guy praising seperate but 'equal'.

"We gave them their own fountains and bathrooms. We gave them their own schools. What more do they want. When does it stop! This is a white nation!"

They are not forced to dress as muslims.

I like the guy, the rest are idiots.

I'm sure his arguement would of been much better if he just had known that "under God" was not in the orginal pledge. That you can say prayer in schools. That you can say god all you freaking want, all day long, as long as it is not REQUIRED or ON SCHOOL TIME.

Next on Paula Zahn: What faggots do to make people hate them -- and why do the insist on doing it in public? But before we get to the shitbox truffle-hunters, we'll tackle niggers, kikes, chinks, degos, retards and other untermenchen.

Karen, you're kinda high yellow but still -- what's your thoughts?

(Karen Hunter drops her watermelon into a basket of fried chicken) Oh lordy, praise Jesus. Them atheistims is gonna keeell us all feh shu, Paula!

Debbie, I know you're a pork-fearing Red Sea pedestrian -- but do you think atheists are being treated unfairly by Christians?

(Debbie Schlussel is busy beating a Palestinian infant over the head with a diamond-encrusted Menorah while chanting strange Hebrew enchantments and collecting the blood in a bowl.) Vat, ist you ferklopt? Everyone knows America is God's own country! I think Jesus ist magic, too! The atheists are trying to convert Christian children into Muslims! They are forcing them to say Muslim prayers!

Okay, I appologize for not being able to think of anything worse than that. I thought I was capable of writing the most offensive, repugnant and downright sick parodies, but I have just come face to face with the sad reality that I cannot think of anything worse to write, that could even touch that CNN clip. I'm utterly gobsmacked.

I learned so much from this clip:

• "Freedom of religion" does not mean "freedom from religion". I always seem to forget that Christianity is our state mandated religion. We need to enforce that one a little more strictly so people like me don't keep losing sight of the fact that the United States is a Christian nation.

• The atheist minority are actually the people that are intolerant and discriminatory. I mean, it's certainly true that we find countless historical examples of atheists discriminating and killing in the name of their beliefs, right?

• Europeans are less religious now and this situation has become a scourge upon their society. I can't imagine what bloody event could have ever caused people to lose their trust in religion. I mean, it's not like Christians in Europe ever killed Jews and Atheists for having different beliefs, right? I mean, something like that would never happen because Christians are always tolerant.

Norm,

You need to SHUT UP! What you do here at OneGoodMove is intolerant and anti-American so just shut up!

Everyone here, SHUT UP!

The Creator of the Universe created me in His own image. He listens to everything I have to say, is intimately interested in everything I do, and when I die, I will sit at His right hand, while you suffer in a lake of eternal fire. And if you don’t believe me, that makes you arrogant. So shut up!

This was the most disgusting thing that I have seen in a long time. Shit, I don't expect this from Fox News, or even from CBN. It's hilarious how Debbie continuously slurs her prejudice against not only atheists, but somehow finds a way to throw Muslims in there as well. I mean, how fucken Islamophobic do you have to be, to be able to squeeze in your hatred for them in just about any topic?

Such a simple question, how do you have a panel to discuss atheists and have 4 christians. What an odd world. I am never moving to the US.

Sorry to double post but wanted to say thanks for including a link to write CNN. I'm often too lazy to seek out such things myself and that was a great help.

Here's what I sent in y'all care:

To Whom it May Concern,

I saw a discussion on the Paula Zahn show "Now" where she covered a story on an Atheist family that was facing harassment. The story itself was very well done and it was good to see such a thing getting mentioned on a major show station like CNN. Unfortunately the panel afterward was one of the most atrocious displays of bigotry and anti-free speech rhetoric I've seen in the mainstream media in years. How can you possible promote the views of people whose response to the concerns of other Americans is "Just shut up" and not condemn them for being Anti-American? Why was the false idea that America is a "Christian Nation" allowed to be expressed unchecked? I would expect shouts of "Shut up!" from Bill O'Reilly or Ann Coultier but not from a legitimate news source like CNN.

For the sake of our nation and the freedoms we are granted it would be appreciated if your host would offer an alternate view point or even take the bold step of allowing an actual atheist to defend their rights on your show against the bigoted views of folks who would seem happier in a Theocratic nation.

Thank you for listening, ~GEOFF

yeah... thos evil athiests need to shut up. I mean they don't even believe in god! I mean, they don't even know that they are going to burn in eternal hellFIRE! so it's my duty as a follower of christ (or any of the lesser monotheistic religions) to tell them to SHUT UP.

Jesus wasn't about tollerance... he was about WINNING. get it... we (christ) WIN. you (NOT CHRIST) loose. that simple. quit your whining about prayer in school, or kicking a family out of their house because they dont believe in a god.

we need to punish them here on Earth, before they get their eternal punishment in hell, and I can tell you... that in heaven, we will ALL have a ringside seat to their never-ending torture. it's gonna be AWESOME!!!! GO CHRIST! yeah...

Through this piece CNN, atleast Paula Zahn, has aligned itself with fellow minority bashers of history. Their fellows include Witch burners, catholic inquisitors, Nazi propagandists, the KKK, anti-immigrationists, anti-gay groups, Bill O'Reilly, Rush Limbaugh and Ann Coulter. And like all these groups and people history has, or will, condemn them as what they are, hateful and oppresive individuals who exploit fears and misunderstanding to further their own warped ideas.

(I relise I skimped on listing the groups, I am certain to have missed many more powerful examples.)

So, everyone can be an "expert" on TV in the US nowadays? Wow... Especially the two female "commentators" were obnoxious.

I am an agnostic, but I would never dare question the morality of an atheist, simply because he/she does not believe in God, Allah or Zeus.

Lets go back to before Womens Suffrage, and before 1940 and see how our blacks, jews, and women fare in the media.

Imagine the panel then.

I'm quite certain the white men running the press would tell these uppity, militant minorities to shut up or far far worse.

But, as they point out, it is ok to hate athiests because they aren't easily picked out of a crowd. Neither are most Jews, but you don't hear the end of that crap.

I do like the male speaker though. He TRIED to point out the importance of respecting all non-violent points of view.

Oh, I would like to see the black woman and the jewish woman get in a jello pit fight though... Those two are a haertbeat away from Jerry Springer.

I didn't hear the word 'constitution' once. Very sad it should come to this.

Norm, thank you for the link to complain directly to paula. I encoruage all readers to do the same. Get that shit off the air.

My comments below:

Your piece on Aethism was well done. Your panel discussion was infuriating to me and everyone I show it to. Are you crazy? Are you really supporting the oppression of non-violent minorities? Imagine going back to before Women's Suffrage or before Segregation and having that EXACT PANEL on television. Would those 'militant minorities' just 'shut up'?

This panel of Theists discussing Atheists is equally outrageous. Imagine a panel of white men discussing women's rights at the turn of the century? "they stopped wearing dresses, what more do they want?" No.. really. are you KIDDING?

I believe in God, by the way, and believe that the truest followers of the great teachings do one thing: treat the least of us as if he were the best of us. That is: respect all. Period.

Paula, this is the last I'll see of your show. I'm done. Goodbye.

I was somewhat heartened by Stephen A. Smith's attempt to bring a smidgen of reason into the discussion. He tried and perhaps he could have made inroads if the discussion had lasted more than five minutes. But I doubt it. It's really a joke to have a discussion of that nature, with that many people, in so little time.

Martin Luther King, Jr. was a devout christian, but he spoke very eloquently about the separation of church and state. I wish there was someone of his eloquence today that had a platform to tease some rationality out of our public discourse.

In a 1965 interview with Playboy, King was asked how he felt about the U.S. Supreme Court’s decision ruling school prayer unconstitutional. In response he said:

I endorse it. I think it was correct. Contrary to what many have said, it sought to outlaw neither prayer nor belief in God. In a pluralistic society such as ours, who is to determine what prayer shall be spoken, and by whom? Legally, constitutionally, or otherwise, the state certainly has no such right. I am strongly opposed to the efforts that have been made to nullify the decision.

Karen Hunter: Pulitzer Prize Winner. Debbie Schlussel:Attorney, Columnist. Stephen A Smith: ESPN Analyst. Wikipedia reports that "His harsh and loud tone expressed during debates has earned him the nickname 'Screamin' A. Smith' by several of his colleagues." Evidently he could use our support. He was the only one with ONE-GOOD-MOVE. Thanks Stephen!

One thing for sure: atheists are the worst spellers in the entire universe!!! I have never seen comments with so many typos. :-) But in reality I guess indignation got the better of orthograph for most of us (and a French proverb states that "L'orthographe est la science des sots"). And, did you know that in French, "Gode" -written with a final e (but I see no one cares!)- means... "dildo"! So tell that to the next christian who bugs you. Won't earn us French atheists any brownie points, but c'est la vie.

Iam not sure that Amerika is a part of the civilised world anymore. The stupiditi in your contry is so amasing, that i dont know What to say. Are you all left back in the darknes of the middelage? A dangerus armed MADHOUSE. May THOR have mersy on your rotten souls. A wiking from scandinavia.

Here is something funny... the position the Vatican has on "conversion". Since not everyone is born under a Christian culture there is a contradiction to solve. Are all these poor souls going to hell for something they didn't know they have to change in the first place? So, this is their answer: as long as you are a "good" person, god will know and you will go to heaven.. it is certainly amazing, even I "the red atheist" can go to heaven. Besides, I don't believe in go but if there is a god, I doubt he wants me to be an idiot an still judge my actions legitimately.

My regards. Your European (Spain) atheist friend

For me, there is only one question this story causes me to ponder--are all atheists bad at bowling?

This was pretty one-sided. Did anyone think it was a little ironic that the Black lady was defending discrimination? I laughed at her backwards thinking and meaningless points. The debate seemed to be between the video clip and the discussion afterwards; one showing atheists being discriminated, the other decrying Christian discrimination by atheists. Why can't we just go back to hating faggots? (just kidding for those unfamiliar with sarcasm)

First, I am a Christian (Catholic), church going, Sunday school teacher, and very involved in other church activities. I also come from a very conservative city in Latin America…well, most are.

I have to say that I found the discussion at CNN to be offensive in so many levels. The two women were just vicious without much thinking. I wish my fellow Christians concentrated on other things rather than defending God. As far as I know, my God does not need any defending and he loves everyone just the same. I might not agree with a lot of the things that are said in this forum but I do respect honest opinions. Finally, One of my best friend is an Atheist and I find him to be a better "Christian" than most people at my church.

Well I have to say I was impressed with a new journalistic low. I don't think I've ever seen (even on American "news" TV) a debate about anything without that thing being represented. Where was the atheist on the panel? Furthermore, allowing your panelists to spew factual inaccuracies is ... fuck i don't have a word that fits. But its bad. Even for your silly shows you call news, its bad.

Wow. These people are flat-out pathetic. "Freedom of religion doesn't meen freedom from religion"?? So let me get this straight - we are free to believe whatever we want, unless its NOT a bonefied religion or theistic deity. I'd like to quote Richard Dawkins: "everyone is an atheist about 99% of the world's religions. I just go one god further." How delusional are these CNN 'analysts'? And what makes them think that atheists seeking to NOT have to subscribe to religion on a public level is equal to intolerance? Appearantly Christians have a monopoly 'persecuted minority' claim in America. Big difference is, when have atheists killed or harmed anyone in the name of what they believe (or don't believe)? And, why is 'morality and ethics' so easily accepted as a trump card by religious groups against atheists yet also conveniently overridden when it comes to mass genocide in the name of "god"? As an agnostic who frankly doesn't care if there is a god or many gods or no gods, I have never been able to understand how I could inherently lack morality, just because I dont have an imaginary friend. So far in human history, it has been the religious groups that have so relentlessly proven themselves (as a group, I am not judging individuals) the most intolerant, murderous, and hypocritical people on Earth. Appearantly I just need to shut up

Oh, and get some nice Atheist or Agnostic greeting cards to "market ourselves" better. Since atheists and agnostics care so much about assimilation.

My letter:

I saw the piece you did on Atheists being discriminated against, and I was quite pleased with the story portion of the segment. However, your 'panel discussion' afterward left MUCH to be desired. Next time you have a topic of interest that involves a certain percentage of people in the country, let someone represent that community in any discussion centered on whether it is ok if they exercise their rights afforded by the constitution. This is equivalent to having three white southern men in 1890 talking about whether African Americans should be granted equal access to public facilities.

None of your panelists seemed to know anything about the issues regarding Atheists in America other than what they have likely heard from the pulpit or other theist sources. None of them knew that the "under god" in the pledge was only inserted as recently as 1954, or that "In god we trust" on money is a civil war-era invention. Neither of these phrases was created by our founding fathers, and anybody versed in the writings of the founding fathers would be able to clearly show how they would likely be appalled by such state-sanctioned religiosity. Any informed Atheist would have been able to easily point these issues out as well as a great deal more about how the separation of church and state has eroded significantly quite recently in our country's history (much to the chagrin of folks like MLK Jr.). Instead of an intelligent, well informed discussion with people who knew anything past their own prejudices, what you gave us was a tirade that preaches suppressing Atheist's rights which have been accorded to them via the Constitution just because they ‘speak up’ on matters that are important to them.

I would have expected this of Fox 'News', but not of CNN. I am absolutely appalled.

"i think "tool" was an excellent choice of words, as she is being paid to spout this shit."

Tools are useful she isn't. This is just another day on the TV IMO and the reason I don't have cable.

I find it ironic that during the 'panel discussion' they showed an excellent example of discrmination against Atheists.

my letter:

Your panel of guest discussing Atheism was despicable. Your guests repeatedly said that American is a "Christian Nation" presumably because Christians are a majority, and that atheists should "shut up". But that isn't much different from saying "America is a White nation, and blacks and asians should just shut-up."

That kind of hateful intolerance is exactly the kind of thing that atheists face in school, on the job, and in their communities.

Religious fundamentalism discourages critical thinking. It undermines science and stem-cell research. The Pope denies condoms to HIV ridden Africa. And lets not forget that religious fundamentalism is the reason why those people flew planes into our buildings.

America is laggard in moving away form religion, like the rest of the West. Time to wake up and catch up.

Voxton, nice one:

Next on Paula Zahn: What faggots do to make people hate them -- and why do the insist on doing it in public?

Please write to CNN everyone!

vonmeth, good point! Please send it to CNN:

"We gave them their own fountains and bathrooms. We gave them their own schools. What more do they want. When does it stop! This is a white nation!"

Don't forget to add "we let them sit in our bus seats"!

Freedom OF religion DOES in fact also mean freedom FROM religion.

Apparently, the pundits have no idea what the constitution is for. They seem to think that the constitution was made to protect the rights of the majority. However, it is quite the contrary, the constitution was written to protect the rights of the minority. The majority already has their rights, so the constitution is for the minority because they lack rights.

I couldn't believe that the attorney, who should everything about the rights that people have, stood there and basically said the atheists have no rights.

I also couldn't believe that the black woman thought that atheist need to "just shut up". I thought that was so ironic because not even 60 years ago, she would have had absolutely no rights. Well, I guess she doesn't realize that if it weren't for people like MLK Jr., W.E.B. Du Bois, Rosa Parks, and Malcom X, people who all SPOKE UP because they were being suppressed, she would still have no rights today. What a bitch.

These were all seriously misinformed people. Two Christians and a Jew, arguing about the rights of a minority they obviously know nothing about. Stephen A. was the only one who actually tried to bring some balance to the argument, but it didn't happen because they did not have someone on the panel to represent atheists who could counterpoint all of their delusive ideas.

I believe that most Christians don't actually believe in God and heaven. They instead WANT to believe in God. If you really listen to how they talk, much evidence of this slips through. Death and funerals should be joyous as the faithful departed have made it to the promise land. Why not life on the edge, as an early demise would just allow you to join Peter and Paul and the rest of the gang sooner. True, you'll miss a few friends here, but what is a couple more decades when you'll have ALL ETERNITY to catch up.

it's bascially very convenient to tell a child that their dead mother is with God now, but I think even most Christian adults don't believe this, as much as they'd like to...

Do not dare for an instant wonder why the rest of the world thinks many if not most Americans are mentally ill.

I found the irony stunning.

It made my wife leave the room in disgust.

I emalied CNN. I am going to email the two female panelist.

It amazes me that they can talk about atheist 'militancy'. It's not atheists that are blowing up abortion clinics or ramming planes into buildings. It's not atheists who are killing each other in Ireland and Israel and Iraq. Unbelievable.

The woman on the right was disgusting. "They should shut up." Unbelievable.

It seems strange that they keep saying that this is a Christian Nation. I thought that the US was a secular country. Not governed by one religion.

Last I checked Europe wasn't falling into the abyss because of secularism with increasing intolerance. It has its issues just like any other place. And since when was America the shining beacon of perfectionism...?Get off the crack pipe, people.

In a conversation with either of these so-called "christians" I think I would be forced to slap them to stop that regurgitation of complete bullshit over and over.

There's just so much wrong with these people, it's hard to know where to begin....

Lot of hate spewing towards all Christians from atheists on this page, actually. The three people on the panel hardly speak for all American Christians, and I think all of your generalizations are every bit as reprehensible as the ones thrown around by the panelists.

My letter:

I must begin by informing you that I am writing this letter on top of the very bible Richard Dawkins parents beat him with causing him to denounce religion for good. My parents chose to apply corporal punishment using a copy of Bertrand Russell’s Why I’m Not a Christian, thereby forcing me into a life of devotion to the cross. More to the point, I must inquire as to why you chose to represent atheists or nontheistic Americans using unattractive people. Surely, somewhere there exists a Godless Clintonista who could grace the cover of Seventeen magazine. Kelly Kapowski was pretty hot and I don’t recall ever hearing her profess belief in a god (consider this a lead).

Also, I think you deliberately dumbed down the position of the atheist by showing them bowling. This is a sport we all know is reserved for the less intellectual in our society. I would suggest you show them playing chess, but I think this is a contradictory position for the atheist as they would refuse to accept the king’s divine right and not allow the bishops to move.

Furthermore, I agree with the other letters I have read that were sent to you; you need an atheist on the discussion panel. Might I suggest the creator of the documentary "The God Who Wasn’t There". He, much like most news sources, takes much of his antagonist’s stances out of context and leans on poor scholarship to support his arguments. I think his crass brand of polemics would contrast well with the likes of Stephen Smith (or some random white lady with blond hair who claims to be Jewish).

I thank you for your time. Please tell Ted Turner to stop eating children, Some Guy

My letter to CNN:

I thought the piece you recently ran on atheism was reasonable and even handed, however the panel discussion afterwards was very disappointing. What could have been a very interesting debate about faith and the constitution, was instead three Christians debating if Atheists should "just shut up" or not.

Please consider doing a follow up piece with Constitutional experts discussing religion (specifically Christianity if you like) and the surprisingly explicit omission of religious coupling in the Constitution. Such a piece on the facts and fiction behind "the separation of Church and State" would be very interesting to many people. Then perhaps consider having a balanced panel of advocates from all faiths, as well as some atheists, to discuss the role and scope of religion in society.

I'm disappointed because you can do so much better.

Regards, Rev. Jim

That is the most bigoted thing I have seen on TV in a long time. Any other group and there would be calls to take her off the Air. I can not express how angry that clip makes me.

"Lot of hate spewing towards all Christians from atheists on this page, actually. The three people on the panel hardly speak for all American Christians, and I think all of your generalizations are every bit as reprehensible as the ones thrown around by the panelists."

From what I've read most of the "hate" has been directed toward CNN and the 3 morons they had on.

I am an athiest. I am NOT militant. (even if I am cut off in traffic...)

Why do the delusional religious freaks always project their own faults onto us?

I've linked to your post in a follow-up to my original February 1 post on the issue.

"Lot of hate spewing towards all Christians from atheists on this page, actually. The three people on the panel hardly speak for all American Christians, and I think all of your generalizations are every bit as reprehensible as the ones thrown around by the panelists."

translation:

Since you're only talking about the panelist and CNN, and therefore there's no way to further demonize atheists as a group, I'm going to pretend you insulted all Xians, so I can get my digs in too.

You're right "wow". We should all just sit down and shut up.

[/sarcasm]

Persecution complex is a crucial part of the Christian religion. Jesus Christ himself symbolizes persecution, and all Christians love to decorate their homes, bodies, and bumpers with gruesome depictions of his persecution.

This is why, with no sense of irony, they can declare that a ~5% minority is oppressing them.

And you can't reason with them. They believe in talking donkeys, people living inside whales, giants who roamed the earth, and all other kinds of make believe fairy tales.

"..and on that, we have to cut it off..."

No, we need more of "look at europe, they've lost God and are being overrun by muslims", from self- professed jews and christians. I just so enjoy hearing this crap out in the open rather than just from think- tanks doing foreign policy - which, of course, has /nothing/ to do with religion at all. Oh, no, nothing at all. Really. No belief or compulsive prejudice, or demonization involved here. Religion, pff, no, we're just /using that/ to sell our mad policies. But we're rational and secular, you see, so there's no religious irrationality on our part. No, sir. That's the other guys, the "extremists", who's doing irrational belief, you see.

A couple of points:

A lot of the founding fathers were not Christians, but Deists. America is not a "Christian" nation, since there is freedom of religion explicitly stated in the constitution. A lot of the founding fathers, were in fact afraid of the possible interference of Christian power brokers in the nation's affairs (such as it was the case with the Church of England in the UK, and the Catholic church in the French and Spanish empires at the time). A lot of their motivation was purely economic, they did not want to owe money to religious organizations that were expecting a cut of the pie just because, and also some christian movements were aiming at ending slavery (which was an important economic engine for the south).

Second, the original pledge of alegiance did not mention "under god" and it was written in fact by a militant socialist. Tell this factoid to some staunch "under god" republicans and watch their head explode.

Also the phrase "in god we trust" was a recent addition to the greenback in the second half of the XX century.

It seems that America needs a constant enemy to keep her going, the old commies of yore have been replaced by them terrorists. Hatred for minorities has been shifted towards ilegal inmigrants (although many mexicans in the SouthWest can have a case about been there first, and native Americans could in theory request a massive deportation of all these ilegal inmigrants from Europe). Lastly hatred for Catholics now has been superseded for intolerance towards atheist or nonchristians in general. It was not too long ago when there were plenty of "no Irish/Italian" placards around, which was codeword for "we wasps don't want your stinking Catholic ass anywhere near this fine protestant establishment."

And on and on, it is the circle jerk of life I guess...

American has more people in prison, more people in poverty, more people in therapy, more people on drugs, more people without healthcare, more people who simply kill other people than any other industrialized nation on this blue planet.

Could it be that it's a Christian Nation?

I think it's interesting that whenever TV "News" does a story about almost anybody, they pick pathetic looking people to either mock or martyr. Why didn't they interview good looking, economically well-off atheists instead of schmucky looking, over-weight oddballs. I'm no Brad Pitt, but I have lived all over this country and have NEVER been "Marginalized" by my non-beliefs. I thought that CNN piece was ludicrous, like almost all TV news. I think the social fabric of this country is oppressive in the amount of predominantly Christian information and ideals... but for atheists to compare themselves to someone who has truly felt discrimination, such as someone who is Gay or Black or Hispanic or female, is f*cking nuts. Ohh... and who really gives a shit about the pledge of allegiance and who spends their time reading money??!!

Wow. I shouldn't have watched that. I'm so angry now. That's.... just absolutely vile.

Maybe the Daily Show clip will cheer me up.

God, why are people so fucking STUPID.

All I know is that when I contemplate the nature of God and I begin to question his/her existence, the first place I go for guidance is ESPN Analyst Stephen A. Smith.

I have lived all over this country and have NEVER been "Marginalized" by my non-beliefs.

Are we to take that as evidence that atheists aren't marginalized? Have you tried running for public office and announced you were an atheist not a Christian? Have you had a cross burned in your lawn because you are an atheist. Have your children been physically attacked because they were atheists. It's nice your personal experience has been uneventful. Can an atheist avoid being treated in such ways, sure they just have to shut the fuck up. Have you lost a job or a client because you were atheist. Trivialize the problem if you like. There is no need to compare discrimination against atheist with other groups. The discrimination is real no comparison needed.

My letter -

With regards to your segment on the perception and treatment of Atheists in America:

First of all, I would like to say that your segment on atheism in America did not personally offend me. I am not that easily offended by the media, much less a group of 'analysts' claiming to understand spirituality in the US and the role of religion in our history, proving themselves ignorant. I, much like my fellow agnostics and atheists, are used to simply ignoring claims or even personal attacks that we find to be absurd.

I am writing because I am disappointed. Dissapointed that what our media considers to be intellectual analysis of ANYONES rights, whatever group they are, is comprised of those representing one very narrow opinion of the issue itself. Put another way, woman to woman, how do you like the idea of a group of chauvinist men analyzing what rights women should have?

To say that "freedom of religion is not the same as freedom from religion" exemplifies a mentality that I can only describe as frightening. Am I to take from this that its ok to believe in whatever god you want, as long as you believe in a god of some sort? This woman honestly believes that this was the mission of our forefathers (who, by the way, never included mention of god in anthems or currency, that came much much later): freedom means you can call god a different name if you want to, but you have to believe in god if you are to be respected. With freedom like this, who needs persecution? And furthermore, why is this attitude towards atheists necessary? At what point in history have atheists or agnostics engaged in war, mass genocide, ethnic cleansing, or otherwise atrocious acts against fellow human beings? How does my agreeing or disagreeing on the existence of a creator have any bearing on my morality or ethics as a person?

The real argument is not about whether or not atheists and agnostics should be trusted. It is about how the mission of this nation is interpreted. Christians like to say that because the majority of the nation is Christian, it is a Christian nation. I suppose then if the majority of the many toppings on my pizza are pepperoni, then it is not a pizza at all, but rather a big piece of pepperoni. The founding fathers debate has many sides, but is the inherent reason for dissusions like yours about how any ethnic or religious minorities should be treated.

My main point here is that these are the discussion elements that would be brought to the table should you decide to include any atheists or agnostics in a discussion regarding OUR rights to critique theistic practices.

Then again, keeping us out of the discussion to begin with may just be an easier way to get us to simply "shut up".

That video just ruined my day. But its good to know I'm not alone in my outrage. There was one good point made in that segment. You can't (usually) pick and atheist our of a crowd... this makes us feel isolated.

This whole idea of a 'Christian' nation is so confusing. I mean, HELLO?!?!

Amendment I

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

How ironic that the phrase "don't impose on my beliefs", or some variation thereof, came up in this so called debate when that is exactly what school prayer does to kids. No one is saying your kids can't pray while they are in school lady, just that the school cannot have "prayer time", because doing so imposes those beliefs on everyone involoved. Chew on that you hypocrate.

Furthermore, please PLEASE show me an instance of an atheist oppressing a Christian, because I'm just dying to see that one. PS: making fun of Christians does not equal oppressing them.

norm, i totally agree with your points there, there's no question that a declared atheist faces all kinds of discrimination in america. but in defence of jimmy, and his list of people who have "really" been marginalized: were you aware of the tension between "proper negros" and the "coloured" and "high yellow" folks in the first half of the last century? it was basically about the ability to "pass". and while the "high yellow" was justifiably upset about having to pretend to be something she wasn't- that is, to "shut the fuck up"- the fact is that the darker skinned members of the community DID NOT HAVE THAT OPTION AT ALL. and this is where atheists, and many jews and many gays find themselves. i, as a jew, or an atheist, would never compare the very real opression i suffer to that of blacks, hispanics, women, and people that don't have the option to pretend. i think that's what jimmy was talking about.

.

This crap is what I call "Henry Ford Theology":

You can have any religion you like, as long as it's christianity.

.

Yes, I've been told 13,000 times that Ford didn't actually say the quote, and 13,000 times I've replied, "that's not the point". The point is that "one jeezus fits all" is stupidity. Not everyone lives on their knees sucking on the lies and swallowing the outcome.

.

"A cross burned on your lawn because you are an atheist"?????!!! Has that happened to you or someone you know? Running for office?... sure, but there are more religious people in this country than atheists. If they vote for the Christian... that's their choice... Oh well. Lost a job or a client? How did religion get on the table in the first place? If asked what your beliefs are on the job, how about "None of your Business?" I'm not saying things don't happen to atheists. I'm saying it's rare and it's usually because they are thumping their chests and barking (without being asked) like the bunch of religious assholes with whom we are all annoyed. (If you live in a small town in a rural red state... move! you are surrounded by assholes. Come to the city... we're all cool.) I'm sorry, but when I see White, Heterosexual people in this country complaining about being marginalized, they usually (NOT always) are: a. assholes, b. losers, c. crazy. If you are one of the few truly marginalized atheists, I’m sorry.

... as an atheist I have no creed. There is nothing for me to declare. I don't feel I need to proclaim my beliefs because I'm not worried about my soul if I don't. I don't like people who need to constantly share their beliefs and opinions with everybody else. I fight religious oppression, I don't fight for the right to be an atheist. That just seems silly to me.

that happened to you or someone you know?

yes

If they vote for the Christian... that's their choice...

true but it sort of trashes the idea of no religious qualification for office. And since none of your business is tantamount to I'm not a Christian it effectively bars someone from office on religious grounds.

Lost a job or a client? How did religion get on the table in the first place?

an internet search on your name, or in casual conversation. Have you ever said none of your business to a prospective client? What church do you attend? I don't attend church. You're not an atheist are you? It is true that it is rare that it comes up, but I've noticed it rearing its ugly head more often recently. I've personally heard it twice.

it's rare and it's usually because they are thumping their chests

Ignoring your inflamatory language it is just another way of saying just shut up. Why is 'thumping your chest' about religion acceptable.

I'm not claiming that the discrimination is on the scale of that directed at African Americans or Women or Homosexual, nor would I compare any discrimination I've suffered on par with their suffering but part of that is simply that there are fewer atheists and that they, until now, have just shut up.

Just curious do you also suggest to Gays that they keep their Homosexuality in the Closet?

Confronting the discrimination 'thumping their chests' if you will, is a way of starting a conversation, and of exposing discrimination.

"Last I checked Europe wasn't falling into the abyss because of secularism with increasing intolerance"

Well, I can tell you that we have a nice mixture of religions over here, but I am not sure indeed whether we are soon "to fall" to anything.

I'm always just wondering at people who think that having a culture and different beliefs always means that somebody has to go immediately (oh, and before that 'shut up'). Cultures share the same principles of evolution - whats right will show in time, and I think that given the development (less gods, more atheists), its pretty clear where this is leading.

Actually, I never told anyone here to shut up, and although I am not an atheist I believe strongly in the right of any American to practice any religion s/he chooses - including practicing no religion at all. But hey, I'm not speaking the party line for this particularly blog, so I guess I should be attacked anyway.

Translation: Since you're only talking about the panelist and CNN, and therefore there's no way to further demonize atheists as a group, I'm going to pretend you insulted all Xians, so I can get my digs in too.

No, sorry, just a few posts above mine was a rant about Christian adults don't actually believe what they say they believe in; another that implied that Christians are the reason why the rest of the world thinks Americans are mentally ill; and so on. Yes, many of you are talking about the panelists, and about CNN (which, from the looks of it, stopped covering news sometime around when MTV stopped showing music videos), but there's a lot of hate/anger misdirected at all Christians. And that does nobody any good. Tolerance is a two-way street, and while most of you may know that, there are some of you who don't show that in your comments here.

Rage filling body,..... blood boiling,...veins popping,,,,, well the irony of the video was great the black female and the jew female both saying discrimination is a good thing ...o the irony. id love to send them back in a time machine. steven a the voice of reason, i never woulda guessed. and for real get a damn atheist on the pannel for god sakes. also theres a law in texas, i think that you cant run for office if your an atheist, hows that for discrimination?

who the hell put a camera in front of this group of fools? i swear, cable news is the biggest problem america has going on. making morons household names. and i swear to god if i hear chris effing matthews go on one more time about how the whitehouse scooter libby scandel happened because of his superior investigative news reporting three years ago i am going to put a boot in my tv.

Unbelievable! You call that a discussion?: "I hate atheists more than you do." "No! I do!" "You are both wrong, I do!"

And since when is it an undisputed fact that America was founded as a "Christian" nation? Anyone read Ben Franklin?

-Rand

Sorry baby... but I'm havin’ a hard time with the gay comparison. I'm gay and you don't know what you are talking about. When you walk down the street with your boyfriend and hold his hand and kiss him if you feel like it; that's out in the open... that's just being who you are. As an atheist, I don't walk down the street with a t-shirt saying "I'm an atheist" because I don't care if anyone knows or not.

Christians and Muslims and Jews are damn fools and deserve to be told the truth every goddamned day. I wish more of these spinless, brainless bible-thumpers lived around me.

Well, no, not really.

you'd care if you were runnin' for office in texas, jimbo:)

“Sorry baby... but I'm havin’ a hard time with the gay comparison. I'm gay and you don't know what you are talking about. When you walk down the street with your boyfriend and hold his hand and kiss him if you feel like it; that's out in the open... that's just being who you are. As an atheist, I don't walk down the street with a t-shirt saying "I'm an atheist" because I don't care if anyone knows or not.”

It not a question of caring if people know or don’t. It a choice to either hide the fact you an atheist or don’t hide the fact. Especially in small towns people will find out eventually if you atheist unless you pretend not be one. Once they find out the discrimination is real.

I really don’t care if people know am atheist or don’t but I refuse to lie about it and pretend to believe in something I don’t.

People may find out quicker that you gay then a person an atheist but once they do find out am not sure the discrimination any less. No one should live in fear because the people they choose to be with and no body should live in fear of the Myths they don’t believe in. And no one should need to hide those facts.

Is it just me, or is it more than just a little strange that in their little end... thing (No way I'll call it a discussion), they had an ESPN annalist for a talk about atheism.

Just where did they get the idea that he was right for this sort of thing?

Wouldn't it have made just a little more sense to maybe get... I don't know... just off the top of my head... A university professor that was an atheist or something?

But wait, no no. They're not doing this as a serious thing, they're just sewing seeds of discontentment with Americans, and helping to distract them as much as possible from real issues... sigh

As a secular islami-fascism inspired European Atheist (did I get everything), I'd like to warn CNN that if they ever show that again, I will blow up their so-called god with my illegal bionuclear...nuke...thing.

please are just xenophobic of things they don't know or understand or of people who are outside of the norm. I'm a vegetarian and people look down on me because they think I'm weird, but being a vegetarian is probably the single best thing that any of could actully do for the environment (not to mention the health and animal cruelty issues.) So, people think I'm a werido because I'm not causing as much harm and pollution and not wasting as much energy and resources with my food choices.

Here in Japan, a lot of Japanese think Christians are weird--which I fucking love. Most Japanese non-religion, like me. So I feel MUCH more comfortable around people here than I didn't back in the bible belt (I'm from Houston.)

Life is too short to be surrounded by assholes who don't accept you. This is why gays tend to live among the fellow minded. I'm very happy about where I live now. I hope any of you who feel like you just can't be yourself will eventally find a community where you really feel like you belong.

Oh here's a little story: when I was in High School I wore a T-shirt to school which said, "I don't need God." I got sent to the principles office for it, and they put tape over the "don't" part, and let me go back to class like that. Kind of funny, but also pretty fucking oppressive. When I was in high school kids have absolutely no rights at all. The school make make any rules they wish regarding dress and communication. Passing notes can be grounds for explusion if they wish. It's terribly authoritarian. And all those abuses of power have turned me into someone who has absolutely no regard for authority.

Tennagers should be able to vote in this country. If we think they are mature and responsible enough to drive a 2000 pound automobile death machine, how can we say that they don't have enough sense to make a decision about who seems best fit to preside over the country they are going to inherit?

Ok I'm rambling at this point. hope I wrote something worth discussing.

I really like the community at onegoodmove. The people over at CrooksandLiars are complete juvenile assholes.

Gee, if they were only going to have conservative commentators on this, couldn't they have at least had an atheist one. Maybe someone from the Ayn Rand wing of Libertarianism. That would've been a hoot.

Anyone else notice the large amount of time spent talking about the pledge of allegiance, American currency, and prayer in schools? Is that all the Christians care about? Apparently "love thy neighbor" doesn't apply if you're an atheist in Mississippi, which the commentators seemed to ignore.

One of the more egregious comments was that by taking prayer out of schools kids don't learn morality anymore. Yes, because praying to a being that will throw you into a pit of fire for all eternity if you don't believe in them instills the difference between right and wrong in a person. If only those boys from Columbine had prayed, they'd be just fine, but just ignore the fact that they were mercilessly bullied and alienated. All they needed was prayer!

"We feel, to a certain extent, that atheists are very much on the attack ... Part of the public persona and the public image of atheism is presented by people suing to remove 'In God We Trust" from the coins or God phrase in the pledge of allegiance. And when that militant atheism becomes kind of like the public image of atheism, I think that gives rise to a lot of discontent with atheism." - Ryan Anderson, Junior Fellow of the Christian publication, "First Things"

"We feel, to a certain extent, that Muslims are very much on the attack ... Part of the public persona and the public image of Muslims is presented by people flying planes into buildings and planting bombs in subways. And when that militant Islam becomes kind of like the public images of Islam, I think that gives rise to a lot of discontent with Islam." - Me, having fun with word play.

"We feel, to a certain extent, that homosexuals are very much on the attack ... Part of the public persona and the public image of gays is presented by gay people attempting to get married and adopt children. And when that militant homosexuality becomes kind of like the public image of homosexuality, I think that gives rise to a lot of discontent with homosexuality." - Me again.

Maybe we need some kind of pink ribbon campaign for atheism. Like we can all wear some kind of silver star or something, like how the gays have the rainbow and pink triangle...

I guess we have that Darwin fish ;)

America appears to be a place where identity is built on being a part of an oppressed group (or, at least, it has become a ritualized news subject to whip us all into emotionalism). Being "marginalized" in such a group isn't all bad. It outlines you against the hordes dull pastyfaced consumers. But, unfortunately, it seems to me, too much of this exercise is more like an an identity CRISIS.

While legitimate civil rights movements have come a long way through difficult opposition, I keep wondering if all the subsets of outraged groups will ever stop subdividing. At what level does this become an addiction to outrage, as a form of power which carries with it a privileged pass allowing one to strut their own form of self-righteousness?

Bah! Human Beings, what'ya gonna do?

Make no mistake, there's opportunity in a society as guilty as ours. Be anything but perceived as "the man", so you too can find your distancing mechanism through some sort of otherness with street cred (as opposed to the less than dynamic otherness of, say, an Amish wagon driver). When it comes to pretense, of course, this sullies the real hard-won historical gains over real oppression when people look to placard their identities through serial victimization. Too many leeches instinctually know how to turn this into sound-byte celebrity. We're just too good at taking ideas making them into franchises in America, it's so woven into our wanting to stay ahead. At its corrupted level, being a master at victimhood can mean having a media megaphone, power base, and a safe cover for spreading the cult of deflecting personal responsibility.

Haven't you noticed that even in the most homogeneous of groups, people can still turn on you, betray you, and act like total assholes? Growing up is painful.

With the volume of noise and cross-talk of narcissistic interests going on, it's amazing that there's any cohesion to society at all.

course, abel, if them boys had been prayin' folk, they wouldn't have been alienated and bullied. they would have been accepted with open arms into collective confusion and apathy and probably grown up, relatively harmless.

just sayin.

Stephen A. Smith made the most sense in that panel.

STEPHEN A. SMITH.

That's incredible.

"the less than dynamic otherness of, say, an Amish wagon driver" on behalf of amish wagon drivers everywhere, i protest, sir. but a well written piece, i grant you. :)

The ham-beast on the right wrote a blog post about this video segment here:

http://www.debbieschlussel.com/archives/2007/02/whenatheistsa.html#comments

This is the stupidest blog post I have ever read on the internet, no hyperbole. I suggest reading it for a good laugh.

"ham-beast"? i like "red sea pedestrian" better.

"Sorry baby... but I'm havin’ a hard time with the gay comparison. I'm gay and you don't know what you are talking about. When you walk down the street with your boyfriend and hold his hand ..." -- Randolph Peters

Hang on, I don't think that's an accurate observation.

While I agree that discrimination against gays is far more common than that against atheists, this is more a result of the fact that it is easier to spot a gay person, than an atheist -- just like discrimination against blacks is more common than that against gays -- you can't hide the color of your skin in a closet.

There is no "theological" equivalent of holding hands while walking down the street -- ie., I can live in the closet as an atheist with little effort. Public display of faith is nowhere as common as public display of affection. Living in the closet because of your skin color is impossible. Living in the closet because of your sexuality is hard. Living in the closet because of your atheism is relatively easy. Hence, racism -- and the fight against it -- has always preceeded homophobia -- and the fight against that. We're just beginning to scratch the surface of the issue of atheism.

To belittle the discrimination against atheist compared to that endured by gays is no better than to belittle the discrimination against gays, compared to that endured by blacks. You're not doing anyone a favor.

norm, why don't my posts with links every work?

here is a link to that article about the video segment

tinyurl.com/yq7fe9

HOW MANY TIMES DO I HAVE TO TELL CHRISTIANS THAT THIS COUNTRY WAS NOT FOUNDED BY CHRISTIANS. George Washington, Thomas Paine, Thomas Jefferson, Benjamin Franklin and James Madison where all deists. I am so sick and tired of people saying this country was founded by Christians.

norm, why don't my posts with >links every work?

here is a link to the article about the video segment

tinyurl.com/yq7fe9

http://tinyurl.com/yq7fe9

You left off the http://

often when I send a post with links, it doesn't post, and instead says that message requires moderator approval and something shitcanning it automatically if I don't even a code which is never displayed. even though I'm using typekey.

HOW MANY TIMES DO I HAVE TO TELL CHRISTIANS THAT THIS COUNTRY WAS NOT FOUNDED BY CHRISTIANS

The first settlers were pagans from Asia. Europeans came many centuries later and stole, cheated and murdered their way to power here. Even then they weren't 100% Christian. An awful lot of religious dissenters lived here, including a lot of Unitarians and Deists who had nothing to do with Christianity, beyond being enrolled in it at birth. And by the time of the Revolution, they had a pretty sizable population of pagan slaves working here as well.

Also, I wanted to add that Debbie Schlussel is as jewish as one of those "jews for jesus" folks. i.e. not jewish at all.

If you have over two links it requires moderation. If you have three or more it junks the comment. There is also a bug if you preview and then post that causes problems sometimes. I haven't figured out what's going on yet.

One more thing:

The overwhelming majority of Americans are ignorant of their own history. A lot of you guys are talking about this in regards to the founding fathers being deists and all that stuff.

But the main reason that Americans are ignorant about America is precisely because you guys don't give two shits about the rest of the world. You cannot understand, and appreciate America in all its glory unless you first understand about The Age of Enlightenment in Europe. It's simply impossible to do, and I'm convinced that the root cause of American ignorance of American history is the direct result of ignorance of European history.

America is the embodiment of Enlightenment thinking, and if you knew that, you could never in your life make such absurd claims about American being a Christian nation, or a bunch of Deists being devout born again methodists or southern baptists (ironically, all a product of 1930s tent show revivalism - I learned that here on ogm)

And I realize my spelling and grammar is terrible. The internets have made me too lazy to proofread.

Uh-oh... Dawkins is gonna be on tomorrow. Someone, PLEASE, capture that.

I'm giddy like a little non-Catholic school girl.

CNN is truly fucked up. Isnt anyone gonna do anything about this?

News stories like this make me proud to be a Canadian.

This clip was depressing. We have an obligation to stand up and counter these people... fight for our rights to live as we choose, free from discrimination. Read Chris Hedges new book, American Fascists.

Dawkins on CNN tomorrow? Oh man, why do I get the feeling they are going to try and spin that "It's the atheist's fault" argument on him ... hard.

He's a notably articulate guy though, so I imagine he should do well in representing atheists of all shapes and sizes.

Thomas W. You'll find the CNN Dawkins segment here about 15 minutes after it airs.

I admire Richard Dawkins tremendously. He's incredibly knowledgeable and wonderfully eloquent, and I have no doubt that he'll come across as such -- to any reasonable viewer.

But pitting Dawkins against these raving, batshit insane bigots in the format that CNN used there, is like betting on Ghandi against Tank Abbott in a street fight.

I wish they'd get Penn and Teller instead.

But good luck to Dawkins, tho...

I don't know who was worse that white bitch or that ignorant and brainwashed black woman. Can someone please explain to me why the black community is so Christian faith based? It was a religion that forced upon them as they were STRIPPED FROM THEIR HOMELAND, PLACED IN INHUMANE VESSELS AND SHIPPED TO AMERICA the new white Christian land as SLAVES! Yes Christianity is holy. Damn those athiests for their ignorance...

That was really hard to watch. "They need to just shut up." Wow. What a self centered, egotistical bitch. Pulitzer Prize winner. Amazing.

It's silly of me but I'm still staggered by this ugly bit of low brow, red neck, blatant hate mongering on network television.

Is CNN that desparate for ratings and ad dollars?

It certainly points out the necessity for atheists and non believers of every flavour combination to organize.

Why is it that a program called "Why do Jews, blacks, women, or gays Inspires so much hatred" would not happen because there is a price to pay. Promoting yourself and making money hating atheists, is a freebee. It has no real cost because we are not organized.

I'm not certain but I believe that particular program violated Canadian law. Hate mongering is illegal in Canada.

I am looking into that. I urge any Canadians reading this to write the FCC to complain about this program and CNN's blatant hate mongering.

Considering that the show eminates from the good ol' US of A, I don't see how that would be a viable tactic for Canadian atheists. I would much rather chew out the CRTC on their own brand of bullsh!t.

such utter crap from those people, anyonebody elese think "by that logic they shouldn't have taken segregation out of schools" when that women started talking about "prayer in schools"? i mean come on you supposed to know the place we are comming from!

WOW! I don't remember seeing a post get so much comments in just one day alone! The world is finally making sense.

to CNN:

My comment today is: (•)Positive ( )Negative

[if backhandedly so. . . ]

I'm always glad to see atheism discussed in public forums. I was especially pleased to learn that Richard Dawkins will be on the program tomorrow evening, and I'll be interested to see how that show turns out. I can only assume that the tone tomorrow night will be apologetic, to Dawkins and to American atheists like myself, in regard to tonight's show. I must say I was amazed at the underhanded doublespeak of tonight's program. The atheists featured on the show talked about having lost their jobs, their homes, their social standing because of prejudice, and you followed it up with a fantasy about "militant" atheists out for Christian blood. There's a war on, and "America's Most Trusted News Source" is making a straw man of the "angry atheist" in America? Where is the sense in making me out to be a bogeyman and in the same breath telling me to shut up about being treated unfairly? Unlike your panel members, I know my US history, and I am fully aware that today's political God talk is echoes of McCarthyism. Bear in mind, the Deist Framers of this "Christian nation's" Constitution were radical nontheists like myself. I'm glad the topic's on the table, and I will be thrilled to see how the tone changes when Dawkins is on. I trust he will bring some much-needed reason and perspective to the discussion.

Thank you, Norm. You do us all a great service.

to CNN:

My comment today is: (•)Positive ( )Negative

[if backhandedly so. . . ]

I'm always glad to see atheism discussed in public forums. I was especially pleased to learn that Richard Dawkins will be on the program tomorrow evening, and I'll be interested to see how that show turns out. I can only assume that the tone tomorrow night will be apologetic, to Dawkins and to American atheists like myself, in regard to tonight's show. I must say I was amazed at the underhanded doublespeak of tonight's program. The atheists featured on the show talked about having lost their jobs, their homes, their social standing because of prejudice, and you followed it up with a fantasy about "militant" atheists out for Christian blood. There's a war on, and "America's Most Trusted News Source" is making a straw man of the "angry atheist" in America? Where is the sense in making me out to be a bogeyman and in the same breath telling me to shut up about being treated unfairly? Unlike your panel members, I know my US history, and I am fully aware that today's political God talk is echoes of McCarthyism. Bear in mind, the Deist Framers of this "Christian nation's" Constitution were radical nontheists like myself. I'm glad the topic's on the table, and I will be thrilled to see how the tone changes when Dawkins is on. I trust he will bring some much-needed reason and perspective to the discussion.

Thank you, Norm. You do us all a great service.

to CNN:

My comment today is: (•)Positive

[if backhandedly so. . . ]

"I'm always glad to see atheism discussed in public forums. I was especially pleased to learn that Richard Dawkins will be on the program tomorrow evening, and I'll be interested to see how that show turns out. I can only assume that the tone tomorrow night will be apologetic, to Dawkins and to American atheists like myself, in regard to tonight's show.
I must say I was amazed at the underhanded doublespeak of tonight's program. The atheists featured on the show talked about having lost their jobs, their homes, their social standing because of prejudice, and you followed it up with a fantasy about "militant" atheists out for Christian blood. There's a war on, and "America's Most Trusted News Source" is making a straw man of the "angry atheist" in America? Where is the sense in making me out to be a bogeyman and in the same breath telling me to shut up about being treated unfairly? Unlike your panel members, I know my US history, and I am fully aware that today's political God talk is echoes of McCarthyism. Bear in mind, the Deist Framers of this "Christian nation's" Constitution were radical nontheists like myself.
I'm glad the topic's on the table, and I will be thrilled to see how the tone changes when Dawkins is on. I trust he will bring some much-needed reason and perspective to the discussion."

Thank you, Norm. You do us all a great service.

SHIT those weren't showing up before, I thought I was having character limit issues or something.
really sorry for spamming

Regarding your recent 'discussion' on athiesm.

How dare you Paula - and your producers - how dare you offer a question stem that asks "Why do athiests inspire such hatred?" Like Neil Cavuto before you, your use of the question mark is as spurious as it is obvious.

I have now added CNN to the list, formerly occupied only by FOXnews and CBN, of channels that have completely lost even their entertainment value and simply needs to cease existing as a purported news source. Your show is actually detracting from the public discourse. Jon Stewart was right you know - when you have people on for this kneejerk, reactionary talk, all you do is lower the standard of expectation for everyone, and cheapen the dialogue were there ever a place where it was more valued. With shows like yours, that often reinforces 'missing white woman' madness, I suppose it is rare that you even bother to investigate something worthwhile. Maybe I expect too much to think you would be, you know, considerate or intelligent in your choices once you did. Jeez - you only command an audience of nearly a million people, why should I expect you to care about if they're getting good info from you?

Let us set aside the worst part, that of preparing an a-la-carte panel to discuss athiesm which consisted entirely of vocal persons of faith (at least FOX bothers to have an athiest on, even if relegated to the much reviled satellite link) and simply deal with your failure to ask appropriate questions. You never once challeneged your panel to answer why athiests should not feel oppressed, or why they do after all. There were glaring contradictions in their arguments - your guests asked why athiests should care about having "In God We Trust" taken off the legal tender, for example, and (in suggesting prayer should be brought back) did not consider if it is fair to alienate a child from her/his peers by forcing a situation where they would remain conspicuously silent.

Imagine if every dollar bill said "There Is No God." Ask your panel if they would feel oppressed by that. If so, then all argument that athiests should keep quiet is both prejudiced and ill-conceived. If this should instead be a conversation about accepting the implicit Christiandom of the USA, then lets make it about that. Were that decided (and I think we both know it would never be), athiests could at least face the choice; to live or not in a knowingly Christian state. By that failure, and instead talking about removing the rights of athiests to complain, we have all lost something. In your case, it seems that dignity was the first to go.

It is frightening to think of the size of the audience over which this mental midget holds sway. It really saddens me when I think about the people we give a voice to in our culture: Paris Hilton, Britney, Angelina, moron athletes, reality TV retards, and Paula Zahn. If Jesus can turn that gay preacher straight then these people should pray to receive some rational thinking skills.

I don’t mean to suck up to all of you but great comments!

What about atheist homosexuals, huh ? Most hated minority ? Waouh.

I guess these people on CNN don't reflect the country's ideas. If it's the case, then we're deep, very deep...

Couldn't resist writing to them:

Your panel discussion on atheists, which inexplicably consisted of three christians, was itself demonstrative that atheists are a reviled minority, and it remains socially acceptable to bash them. Karen Hunter's repeated encouragement of atheists to "just shut up" were especially repugnant, as was her greeting-card related mockery. Debbie Schlussel added, "It's obnoxious and they do need to shut up." Can you blame atheists for being "on the attack" against base, ad hominem idiocy such as theirs?

I'm sure you've heard plenty about that already, and I thought it was more important to call your attention to some factual inaccuracies and omissions.

Karen Hunter said: "Don't impose upon my right to want to have prayer in schools, to want to say the pledge of allegiance, to want to honor my God. Don't infringe upon that right."

Actually, that is clearly NOT your right:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lemonv.Kurtzman http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edwardsv.Aguillard

Debbie Schlussel mentions: "And what about this obnoxious Michael Newdow, who went all the way to the Supreme Court for his child, the child doesn't know what's going on, to try and get under God taken out of the pledge of allegiance."

Do you think it might be worth pointing out that Michael Newdow WON that court case? The phrase "under God" in the Pledge of Allegiance has, in fact, been ruled unconstitutional by the 9th US Circuit Court of Appeals. It was overturned by the US Supreme Court on a technicality.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ElkGroveUnifiedSchoolDistrictv.Newdow

Finally:

"This is a Christian country" -Debbie Schlussel

"We're a Christian country. There's no question about that." -Stephen A Smith

"Christianity neither is, nor ever was, a part of the common law." -Thomas Jefferson

It's good to see you've been pressured into allowing Dr. Richard Dawkins to be heard. I wonder, will you grant him equal time?

It would be intensely interesting to see Karen Hunter or Debbie Schlussel intellectually depantsed in a debate by Dr. Dawkins or perhaps author Sam Harris. The presence of either one would at least belie Schlussel's ridiculous claim that atheists "selectively" criticize Christianity. These guys are bestselling authors, who are at least as critical of Islam as they are of Christianity, and aren't particularly hard to find. Must they really do Paula Zahn's job for her?

This panel is appalling. It's been a long time since I have seen something so unapologetically discriminatory on television, and in this day and age that is saying a lot. Reason has left the building. Seriously, when an ESPN analyst is your only intelligent, logical voice in a group of so-called experts on social policy something is rotton in the American nation. Just disgusting...

Also, wtf is up with Debbie Schlussel? I'm Jewish. I went to Brandeis University (which I admit is mostly a hotbed of Jewish leftists, but we certainly had our share of outspoken-conservative-zionist-orthos floating about on campus). Ergo, I'd say I'm pretty well versed on how American Jews view religious policy and separation of church and state. So that being said I have never, I repeat NEVER, heard a Jew defend, espouse or support the concept that America is a Christian nation. NEVER. Too many of us know what it's like to be preyed upon and prayed upon by the Christian fanatics in this country when such behavior is allowed. If you look at separation and church/state court studies I guarentee you will find an equal number of plaintiff Jews and plaintiff Athiests (myself being one of them). I guess Debbie missed that day at law school. What a moron.

this is what the elite want. you MUST act and believe and speak ONLY the way WE think is correct. in the end,maybe less than 50 years, this country will be locking up "untermenchen", anyone not like them. or anyone that thinks they have a freedom to do anything at all. no freedom to speak,nor even think what you chose. you must conform or you will be relocated to one of the camps,,they are building right now. look up something like "new government camp" ,,i saw some pics of feds guarding several acres of land,,with very tall barbed wire fencing being put up,and smallish buildings being constructed. why? they need a place to put people that want to cause trouble with their "im not christian" or "i can be anyone i want". thoughts like that will be punnished.

im 44,i bet my life i will live long enough to see america turn into that crazy jesus freek run nation. just watch and see.

thats video clip is just the beginning. they are trying to make thoughts like theirs look normal and acceptable. they will e doing this more and more and more,,and very slowly we will be leaning to these thoughts and beliefs. they did with young girls,and they went anorexic,,just from seeing media tell them what they should be like. the exact same thing is being done in the jesus sort of way now,this minute.

get you guns and ammo,ill die before i live in my nation turned into soem kind of hate filled nazi camp. welcome to the next civil war.

i am completely offended that they would say that shit. i guess it just sucks to be able to think rationally...

"ham-beast"? i like "red sea pedestrian" better.
-- jonathan becker

Heh, thankie. Can't take credit for that one tho -- Life of Brian.

(Dangit, I'm a retard... This Typekey thing is befuddling me -- my comments are showing "Dzwonka" and "Voxton" alternatively. I'll figure it out eventually.)

"I repeat NEVER, heard a Jew defend, espouse or support the concept that America is a Christian nation. NEVER."

Then again, there's always the Jewish Dennis Prager & Michael Medved for starters. ...and they'd probably use the hyphenated, "JUDEO-Christian"(values) nation"

Whether I agree with these guys or not isn't the issue. However, I'm always amazed how offended people get when there's a plurality of views within a constituent group; that there's a few voices who aren't carrying the banner of traditional views no matter how the political landscape changes. No, they must stay fixed while the world is in flux.

These sort of individualists are usually the most reviled "traitorous", "Uncle Toms", etc. In the big picture though, I'd rather have that diversity of view kept alive than lockstep unquestioning ideology of ANY sort. Otherwise dialogue can never find a center and moderation is frozen out by intimidation.

But that's just me and I'm weird.

Thomas McCay, R. v. Keegstra is a good place to start if you want to learn about hate crimes in Canada. The accused claimed the right of free speech and the Crown - and the judge agreed - that it's no excuse if all you're doing is promoting Aryan hate-mongering, or whatever it was.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R.v.Keegstra

Richard Dawkins on tonight, huh? It looks like Anna Nichole is far more important to our intellectual society. The programming has changed.

U.S. Constitution, 1st Amendment:

Congress shall make NO law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

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Article 11 of the "Treaty of peace and friendship between the United States of America and the Bey and Subjects of Tripoli, of Barbary" (Shortened usually to "Treaty of Tripoli"):

"As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Musselmen; and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries."

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Where the preamble declares, that coercion is a departure from the plan of the holy author of our religion, an amendment was proposed by inserting "Jesus Christ," so that it would read "A departure from the plan of Jesus Christ, the holy author of our religion;" the insertion was rejected by the great majority, in proof that they meant to comprehend, within the mantle of its protection, the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and Mohammedan, the Hindoo and Infidel of every denomination.

-Thomas Jefferson, Autobiography, in reference to the Virginia Act for Religious Freedom

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On 21 April 1787, the Continental Congress of the United States authorized a design for an official penny, later referred to as the Fugio cent because of its image of the sun shining down on a sundial with the caption, "Fugio" (Latin: I flee). The image and the word combine to mean "Time Flees". This coin was reportedly designed by Benjamin Franklin, and as a reminder to its holders, he put at its bottom the message, "Mind Your Business".

The reverse side of both the 1776 coins and paper notes, and the 1787 coins, bore the third motto "We Are One" (in English).

When the United States was reformed after the 1789 ratification of the 1789 Constitution, gold and silver coins bore the official motto of the new United States, E pluribus unum, taken from the also non-religious 1782 Great Seal of the United States of America.

"In God We Trust" is the current national motto of the United States. It was declared as such by an act of Congress in 1956, displacing the existing national motto, E Pluribus Unum.

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Pledge of Allegiance:

Original draft of the Pledge of Allegiance:

I pledge allegiance to my flag and to the republic for which it stands: one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.

Subsequent amendment added the words: "the flag of the United States of America" for the phrase "my flag." The newly worded pledge got adopted officially on Flag Day, June 14, 1924.

In 1954, several Christian anti-communists urged a bill to change the pledge further by including "God." Another amended pledge came by a joint resolution of Congress in 1954 with the addition of the words, "under God." The pledge now reads:

I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it stands: one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.

Unfortunately this pledge does not accurately reflect many Americans who do not believe in gods, and thus it can only stand as a biased an intolerant statement.

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It would seem that the panel of judges from this show clearly lack historical depth, especially about issues they claim to be so fervently concerned about. Now, let me get this straight. If you push a religious/political agenda to change the secular foundation of this country then that’s ok, BUT if you wish to respect the Constitutional ‘Wall of Separation of Church and State’, then that’s being obnoxious, immoral, intolerant, militant, and un-American? If religionists better understood the concept of separation of Church & State, they would realize that the wall of separation actually protects their religion. Our secular government allows the free expression of religion and non religion. Today, religions flourish in America; we have more churches than Seven-Elevens.

You want us to shut up? How about following your own advice, because clearly you are desecrating this country by spewing lies and bigotry—the very things this country’s foundations were unwaveringly against.

Wow. Looks like Paula has blown off Dawkins to talk about Anna Nicole for an hour instead. Why am I not surprised...

The most encouraging comments to read on this post are from those who wrote to CNN. Here is what I had to say to them:

To Whom It May Concern,

I gave up on TV news about a year ago, however, a clip of Paula Zahn's segment on Militant Atheists? (well, not sure if they're militant, since it was only implied, which does the job just fine) is circulating the internet and it caught my attention. The panel set up to discuss whether or not atheists are acting in a militant way towards Christians, while plump with speculation, anecdotal evidence, irrationality and faulty arguments, seemed to be lacking a few things; firstly, people who can say more than 'just shut up'; also, people who can use logic to form a coherent argument rather than briefly mention a reduced version of a single incident, leaving much of the details out, and then draw a categorically negative conclusion, in this case, regarding atheists and implying some kind of alliance with Islam, which is simply absurd; and lastly, how about maybe one atheist on the panel, you know, to at least keep up the illusion of balance in which all the TV news channels pride themselves? Atheists are no more militant, much less in fact, than CNN’s bellicose coverage of the war. Though I stopped watching all TV news, I thought CNN was above the cheap tricks of Fox. It is obvious CNN goes to great lengths to bring us a marvelously glossy product. It is just as obvious that CNN has become intellectually lazy and panders to single-minded followers of sound bytes and straw men. Know that I only have bad things to say about your kind of "news," and discourage it whenever possible.

http://christianparty.net/christianation.htm

something for you atheist/atheist supporters to get riled up about.

It's absolutely incredible how much you have to cherry pick the sayings of the Founding Fathers seem like Christians. Sure you find people from the era of our founding who speak true Christian belief, but those aren't the founding fathers that everybody actually considers the founding fathers.

"I am a real Christian, that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus. I have little doubt that our whole country will soon be rallied to the unity of our creator" - Jefferson.

This quote is used by Christians to support their claim of a Christian founding. It looks good, but on closer examination, this quote beautifully and subtlety reveals Jefferson's disdain for Christianity, by pointing out how little "Christians" sometimes follow their lord's teachings, without actually saying anything

This is one of the best blogs ever. Thank you for posting this. It's absolutely ridiculous that people like this, morons, (with perhaps the exception of the guy on there, though he clearly didn't want to offend ANYONE sadly...) are allowed to be shown on TV to everyone.

What was solved? Nothing...

Do people still not understand that they are not correct about everything? That you can have morals WITHOUT the use of religion!

Can't wait to see Richard rip into this show... With any luck it should be a blood bath.

Once again, great post.

There may be no such thing as bad press. Where is atheism's M.L.King? Where is atheism's Gandhi? There will come a day when the US no longer considers itself a Christian nation. What it will take, I have no idea, but I suspect it is inevitable. Hopefully all the peaceful people of this world can keep our fundamentalists from annihilating their fundamentalists and the rest of us in the meantime.

It is time that more atheists and agnostics come out of the closet. Peace.

Unbelievable.

Hey "Are you listening to me, or are you waiting to speak" Does anyone LISTEN anymore?

They don't even give each other a chance to finish their thoughts. How can you rebuttle on a statement without first listening to the argument fully?

I think we are all entitled to our own beliefs. If you are muslim, christian, atheist...etc. I also think that if you are going to teach the bible in school you should include other religions into the course. Religion in PUBLIC schools should be taught as an educational background of world religions. Maybe instead of horse tunneling our children to one religion, we should allow them expand their knowledge of the world. After all religion is part of HUMAN history. Not just the history of one part of the world.

Stephen A. Smith was great. People should write to him and tell him so. I did. His address.

ssmith@phillynews.com

You don't have to agree with everything he said, but we need people like him.

one of the guys was from espn wtf.

I hate the hypocrisy of a christian evangelist calling an atheist activist militant. Not all atheists are activists btw, i gave up a long time ago because i realized how easily people ignore logic. It's a losing battle.

"How do you know God is real?."

"The Bible."

"How do you know the bible is true?"

"Because God wrote it, duh."

OK, I'm a European non-believer, but even I'm a little taken aback by an increasing amount of website comments over here (in Europe) calling to actually OUTLAW religion! Yes, you read right, forbid religion outright!

Of course, part of it is in response to the amount of Muslim immigrants coming here. And yes, maybe these (puerile?) website comments shouldn't be taken too seriously.

But we've got a political party here (The Netherlands) with 9 seats in parliament, that now openly says it's against Islam! Not against 'violence in the name of Islam', or anything like that. No, against the whole religion! 'No new mosques', that sort of thing!

I personally know Christians that feel threatened by this turn of the public discourse. (And believe me, they would probably vote Nader if they lived in the US...).

A stewardess was fired (or almost fired, not sure how the thing ended) for wearing a small gold cross around her neck. Again, I'm not a Christian, Muslim, Jew, or what have you. But let's leave some room for these people, OK?

I realize the situation in the US may well be different...

""How do you know God is real?." "The Bible." "How do you know the bible is true?" "Because God wrote it, duh."

Did you actually hear people say that, or is it something you imagine them saying? (If they actually say this, they're pretty dumb, I'll give you that).

I think Kierkegard (and others) thought things through a bit further than that. They acknowledge the existence of 'God' is not something you can prove, and believing actually requires a leap of faith.

Some leap, some choose not to. To each his/her own.

This is unbelievable. That's it. I've had it with this country. I'm moving to Canada.

Oh, man. This is disgusting, it really is. Those two women need to shut up, I can't believe such ignorance on television.