Worldandnation: Hamas still doesn't recognize 'Zionist entity'; militants still refuse to return kidnapped Israeli soldier "What message are they trying to send?" I know the message I get from this, Palestine is not interested in a just peace.

News at 11.

Zak,

You really need to start reading the articles posted before commenting. BTW your "recognize" rhetoric is getting old.

Neither side has shown they are willing to work for peace which the article points out.

IMHO, this stupid move by Israel's government should not be construed as a message that her people are not interested in a just peace. There are radical elements in Israel's government that work to derail a settlement, just as there are radical elements in the Palestinian governnment who work to do the same.

Israel has no real legitimacy as a sovereign state in the UN. Here's the proof.

To qualify for its membership to United Nations, Israel had to agree to the condition that the Palestinians Arabs could return to the Arab lands designated for the Arab state under the 1947 Partition Plan.

However, Israel went back on its word after gaining membership, refusing to allow these Palestinians to return while illegally occupying 77% of the region of Palestine, a region where the Jews only had 7% legal ownership of the lands.

The Arab Palestinians are well within their rights NOT TO RECOGNISE ISRAEL as it is a rogue state and military aggressor that had attacked its Arab negibouts, occupied their lands unlawfully for decades, developed and used illegal weapons of mass destruction like nuclear weapons and posion gas.

==========

By the way, Israel had not relased the 2 Arab civilians that Israel kidnapped before Hamas retaliated with the kidnapping of the Israeli soldier.

Israel captures pair in Gaza raid. 24 Jun 2006 http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5112846.stm

Israeli soldiers have seized two Palestinian men in an overnight raid into the southern Gaza Strip. The Israeli military said the two brothers were members of the militant group Hamas and were planning attacks on Israel. Hamas said they were sons of a member but were not involved in Hamas. It called the abduction a crime.

Zak is once again being one-sided with his baseless and misleading claims in his mindless defence of Israel WITHOUT FACTS.

Israel has never been serious about the land for peace doctrine or stopping the build up of illegal Jewish settlements on stolen Arab lands.

Israel has never accepted the Roadmap for Peace. It only claims to accept the "steps" outlined in the road map and then appended 14 reservations and revisions to justify why it can't accept the terms and conditions for the Roadmap for Peace, while the Arab Palestinians agreed to all the terms.

Read for yourself:

Sharon rejects land for peace approach, says aide

Chris McGreal in Jerusalem Wednesday November 23, 2005 The Guardian

http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,2763,1648629,00.html

Israel: Sharon’s rejection of US “road map” has powerful support in Washington By Chris Marsden 17 May 2003

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2003/may2003/shar-m17.shtml Sharon rejects settlement talks 13 May 03 Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon has declared that the question of Jewish settlements, one of the key issues in efforts to reach Middle East peace, is not up for imminent discussion. Mr Sharon, speaking to the Jerusalem Post, said all Israeli governments had gone ahead with settlements in some form, even during periods of peace diplomacy, and that the issue was therefore "not on the horizon". He also said in an address to party members that he would not be put under pressure when he visits Washington to discuss a US-sponsored "roadmap" to peace, which specifically calls for Israel to stop expanding settlements in the West Bank and Gaza. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/low/middle_east/3022927.stm

=============== Israel to lobby against US ‘roadmap’ for peace. 5 May 2003 WASHINGTON: A high-level Israeli government envoy begins a visit to the United States on Sunday in hopes of persuading the US government to drop its support for a Palestinian state and the latest plan to achieve it known as the “road map” to peace.

Israel slams the door in setback for peace plan By Ed O'Loughlin, Herald Correspondent in Jerusalem and agencies May 13 2003 Just one day after an apparent breakthrough in the new Middle East push for peace, Israel has reimposed its ban on Palestinians and other foreigners entering or leaving the Gaza Strip. Yesterday's clampdown effectively froze Israel's decision on Sunday to allow 25,000 Palestinian labourers to enter the country. That decision, along with the promised release of 180 Palestinian detainees, followed a request by the visiting United States Secretary of State, Colin Powell, for conciliatory gestures towards the Palestinians even before Israel endorses the peace "road map". The plan, drawn up by the US, European Union, United Nations and Russia, aims for an independent Palestinian state in 2005. http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2003/05/12/1052591737334.html Israel Rejects PNA Offer for ‘Permanent’ Truce Tuesday, 5 August 2003, 11:01 am Press Release: Palestine Media Center - PMC

Israel Rejects Palestinian Offer for ‘Permanent’ Truce Shaath, Shalom Set up Bilateral Panel on Foreign Affairs The Palestinian foreign minister on Sunday proposed a “permanent truce” in the conflict with Israel if the Jewish state implemented its part of the US-sponsored “roadmap” to peace but his Israeli counterpart rejected the offer, demanding instead the total break up of Palestinian anti-Israeli occupation groups.

http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/WO0308/S00042.htm

Read how Israel rejected the land for peace Oslo accords and sabotaged any roadmap for Peace

"Because of the lopsided balance of power, negotiations went nowhere and the Palestinians' hopes were never fulfilled. The Israelis, regardless of which government was in power, quibbled over wording, demanded revisions of what had previously been agreed to, then refused to abide by the new agreements. Meanwhile successive governments were demolishing Palestinian homes, taking over Arab neighborhoods in East Jerusalem for Jewish housing, and seizing Palestinian land for new settlements. A massive new highway network built after 1993 on confiscated Palestinian land isolates Palestinian towns and villages from one another and from Jerusalem, forcing many Palestinians to go through Israeli checkpoints just to get to the next town... "According to President Clinton and most of the media, Prime Minister Ehud Barak conceded at Camp David virtually everything the Palestinians wanted, and Yasser Arafat threw away the opportunity for peace by rejecting Barak's offer. In fact Arafat could not accept it. Barak, backed by Clinton, wanted assurance of Israel's continued strategic control over the West Bank and Gaza, including air space and borders, and insisted that Israel retain permanent sovereignty over most of East Jerusalem, including Haram Al-Sharif. This was a deal no Arab would accept. Rachelle Marshall, "The Peace Process Ends in Protests and Blood", Washington Report on Middle East Affairs, December 2000.

This is the main reason why Araft stopped talking to Israel and US at Camp David.

Israel wanted to keep its control over West Bank and Gaza Strip and continued occupation of East Jerusalem, instead of returning them as occupied territories whereby Israeli occupation was not internally recognised but globally condemned.

===========

"In the Oslo Agreements, Israel and the West put Palestinian leadership to a test: In exchange for an Israeli promise to gradually dismantle the mechanisms of the occupation in the West Bank and the Gaza Strip, the Palestinian leadership promised to stop every act of violence and terror immediately. For that purpose, all the apparatus for security coordination was created, more and more Palestinian jails were built, and demonstrators were barred from approaching the [Jewish] settlements.

"The two sides agreed on a period of five years for completion of the new deployment and the negotiations on a final agreement. The Palestinian leadership agreed again and again to extend its trial period...From their perspective, Israel was also put to a test: Was Israel really giving up its attitude of superiority and domination, built up in order to keep the Palestinian people under its control?

"More than seven years have gone by and Israel has security and administrative control of 61.2% of the West Bank and about 20% of the Gaza Strip and security control over another 26.8% of the West Bank. This control is what has enabled Israel to double the number of settlers in 10 years..and to seal an entire nation into restricted areas, imprisoned in a network of bypass roads meant for Jews only...

"Israel has failed the test. Palestinians control of 12% of the West Bank does not mean that Israel has given up its attitude of superiority and domination...The bloodbath that has been going on for three weeks is the natural outcome of seven years of [Israeli] lying and deception." Israeli journalist Amira Hass, "Israel Has Failed The Test," in Israeli newspaper Ha'aretz, 10/18/00.

Israeli Prime Minister Ohmert has utterly NO committment to the Roadmap for Peace, just like Barak and Sharon before him.

Ohmert's recent overtures to the Palestinians are nothing more than political cover fo going ahead with the illegal Jewish colonisation of West Bank by Jewish settlements.

Ohmert has stated clearly in August 2006 that dismantling Jewish settlements is not a top priority.

Read for yourself:

Israel Shelves Plan to Pull Out of Settlements in West Bank. 23 August 2006 http://www.truthout.org/docs_2006/082306D.shtml

Jerusalem - The Israeli government's plan to dismantle some Jewish settlements in the West Bank and redraw the country's borders is being shelved at least temporarily, a casualty of the war in Lebanon, government officials said.

The plan, which propelled Prime Minister Ehud Olmert to victory in March elections and was warmly endorsed by President Bush as a way of solving Israel's conflict with the Palestinians, is no longer a top priority, Olmert told his ministers last weekend, according to one of his advisers.... < < <

Over U.S. Objections, Israel Approves West Bank Homes September 5, 2006

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/09/05/world/middleeast/05mideast.html?ref=middleeast

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=124x147963

...Mr. Olmert, whose Kadima Party was elected earlier this year on a promise to pull thousands of Israeli settlers out of the West Bank, beyond the route of Israel’s separation barrier, has been clear about keeping and expanding settlements inside the barrier, even though they are on land occupied since the 1967 war.

The Construction and Housing Ministry published advertisements on Monday seeking construction proposals for the largest settlement activity undertaken by this government. Israel has also promised President Bush that it will pull down more than 20 illegal outposts created since March 2001, but has not done so.

The Bush administration’s position is that Israel should not expand settlements in the West Bank, because it makes the process of a final agreement harder. In general, much of the world considers Israeli settlements in territory seized in the 1967 war, including East Jerusalem, to be illegal, which Israel disputes...

Israel Approves New West Bank Settlement. 27 Dec 2006

http://asia.news.yahoo.com/061226/ap/d8m8kmvg0.html

Israel has approved a new settlement in the West Bank to house former Jewish settlers from the Gaza Strip, officials said Tuesday, breaking a promise to the U.S. to halt home construction in the Palestinian territories....

============

State Department Challenges Israel. 28 Dec 2006.

http://asia.news.yahoo.com/061227/ap/d8m9cjh80.html

Israel's plan to construct a new settlement on the West Bank drew rare criticism Wednesday from the Bush administration.

If Israel goes ahead, it would violate Israel's obligations under the roadmap for peacemaking, a State Department spokesman said.

=====

Abbas Proposes Closed Talks With Israel. 28 Dec 06.

http://asia.news.yahoo.com/061227/ap/d8m9eah00.html

Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas proposed Wednesday that he start closed-door talks with Israel on some of their most difficult disputes including the status of Jerusalem and the fate of Palestinian refugees...

In 2000, former US President Jimmy Carter makes it clear why Israel’s continuous building of illegal Jewish settlements on occupied Arab lands are derailing the Oslo Peace Accords and any Roadmap for Peace.

"An underlying reason that years of U.S. diplomacy have failed and violence in the Middle East persists is that some Israeli leaders continue to "create facts" by building settlements in occupied territory. Their deliberate placement as islands or fortresses within Palestinian areas makes the settlers vulnerable to attack without massive military protection, frustrates Israelis who seek peace and at the same time prevents any Palestinian government from enjoying effective territorial integrity...

[Concerning UN Resolution 242] Our government's legal commitment to support this well-balanced resolution has not changed...It was clear that Israeli settlements in the occupied territories were a direct violation of this agreement and were, according to the long-stated American position, both 'illegal and an obstacle to peace.' Accordingly, Prime Minister Begin pledged that there would be no establishment of new settlements until after the final peace negotiations were completed. But later, under Likud pressure, he declined to honor this commitment...

"It is unlikely that real progress can be made...as long as Israel insists on its settlement policy, illegal under international laws that are supported by the United States and all other nations.

"There are many questions as we contine to seek an end to violence in the Middle East, but there is no way to escape the vital one: Land or peace?"

Jimmy Carter, The Washington Post, November 26, 2000.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A56757-2000Nov25?language=printer

Israel is the one who rejects peace.

Because it refuses to return Arab lands and continues to build illegal Jewish settlements on occupied Arab lands.

That's history and fact.

Period.

If anyone claims otherwise, he's lying because he can't prove it.

Zak and the pro-Israeli crowd lacks the shame or the moral conviction to admit their own one-sidedness.

Seldom, if ever, does the pro-Israeli crowd ever provide any facts or research to back up their pro-Israeli stance.

Instead they blame legitimate Israeli critics for not proving their own pro-Israeli case for them. Or is the case these people can’t find credible pro-Israeli sources : >

While claiming to be objective, the pro-Israeli crowd never condemns the atrocities that Israeli indulged in for the last 60 years.

Just take a look at the first post by Zak in response to the article that Israel is building West Bank settlements, despite breaking Israeli promises not to do so.

Zak LAUGHABLY blames the Palestinians for Israel’s continued building of settlements on stolen Arab lands, without one word of condemning Israel.

The pro-Israeli crowd avoids addressing Israeli atrocities by diverting attention to the Palestinians' actions.

To them, everything Israel does is fair and just and if Israel does anything wrong, it’s the Palestinian's fault.

Just take a look at how Israeli actions contradict the claims made by Zak to defend Israel at this thread (without backing them up as usual)

http://onegoodmove.org/1gm/1gmarchive/2006/11/palestine_peace.html

November 29, 2006 6:52 AM:

“YES, Israel needs to withdraw and dismantle settlements”

November 30, 2006 6:37 AM: these are the same people who call all of israel "occupied" when israel says its willing to relinquish the west bank and gaza.

Funny that Israel is doing the opposite of what Zak claims. And not a peep from Zak in protest, criticism or condemnation for Israel’s illegal and universally condemned occupation and settlement policy.

Oh yeah, I forgot. It’s always the fault of the Palestinians.

And I’ve also forgot about one that says an Israeli can’t go to the toilet without blaming the Palestinians.

Kes, you're really your own worst enemy. If you think anyone reads your ramblings,... well, i guess you do. All i had to do was start with your first one to find this gem:

"To qualify for its membership to United Nations, Israel had to agree to the condition that the Palestinians Arabs could return to the Arab lands designated for the Arab state under the 1947 Partition Plan.

However, Israel went back on its word after gaining membership, refusing to allow these Palestinians to return while illegally occupying 77% of the region of Palestine, a region where the Jews only had 7% legal ownership of the lands."

Newsflash, the Arabs in the Palestine Mandate, hence forward called "Palestinians" never accepted the 1948 Partition Plan. They and their brethren tried to wipe out the Jewish state at its birth and failed. Secondly, Israel did not control the vast majority of the lands aportioned to a Palestinian state in 1947 until 1967. Guess who occupied those lands for 20 years? Well, I'll let you do your research to find out, since you're so darn good at it.

Peace. (But don't count on it.)

Why did you choose to jump over kes's first post about the abduction of the two brothers which preceded the abduction of the soldier?

you know what? fuck all of you and your armchairs. after having left gaza and evicting thousands of jews from their homes which were subsequently destroyed, missiles continue to rain on israel daily, taking lives, destroying property and sowing fear-the single most effective human motivator. thats why they call it "terrorism". the kidnapped soldiers have not only not been returned, but no reliable evidence of their wellbeing has been provided. iran goes nuclear in a few months, after years of belligerant rhetoric calling for israels destruction, while the world sits there with its collective thumb up its ass pretending to be mildly miffed. and you all have the gall to talk about whether this one or that one wants or doesn't want peace. really, where do you get off? of what possible use could it be to ANYONE to lable one side or the other in a life and death struggle as desirous (or not) of "peace"? and kes, iv'e heard you brag a few times here about having a "day job" (congratulations. speaking as a musician, i hope you choke on it). well, you'd never know it from your willingness to spend hours making points against israel, repeating them, backing them up, gloating over them, attacking anyone who sees things differently...jeez, you'd do a lot better for yourself if you could find a way to get paid for hating israel and documenting your hatred in public. in fact, i'm not convinced you're not. how else to explain the doggedness and willingness to repeat yourself ad infinitum over the course of many, many months on this blog, an "ethnic chinese" living in "southeast asia" who doesn't have any jewish or arab friends? if you love the fight against injustice so much, i can tell you plenty of places to look closer to home. i live here, and have plenty of jewish and arab friends, and they all think you're a dick.

jonathan becker ignores the fact that Israel FIRST attacks and invades Arab terrirotries like Gaza Bank and Lebanon with indiscriminate military force.

Fact. ISRAEL FIRST ATTCKED Lebanon's civilian areas and infrastructure 600,000 artillerly shells, and nearly 40,000 rockets and bombs AFTER Hezbollah kidnapped 2 Israeli soldiers in response to the repeated violations of Lebanese sovereignty by Israel's forces and its unlawful imprisonment of 15 Lebanese.

In response to Israel's unlawful and globally condemned bombing and invasion of Lebanon, the Hezbollah fired back at Israel 3,970 rockets in retaliation.

Fact 2. Israel invaded and recoccupied Gaza Strip after Hamas kidnapped 1 Israeli soldier.

However Israel was the one who first kidnapped 2 Arab civilians from the West Bank 1 day before the Hamas kidnapping and 1 month before the Hezbollah kidnappings.

Israel [kidnaps] captures pair in Gaza raid. 24 Jun 2006 http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5112846.stm

The year 2006 made it clear that Israel was the party that first attacked and kidnapped civilians while the Arab concentrated their efforts on soldiers.

At least 845 Lebanese were killed in the 34-day war: 743 civilians, 34 soldiers and 68 Hezbollah. Israel says it killed about 530 guerrillas. On the Israeli side, 157 were killed — 118 soldiers and 39 civilians, many from the 3,970 Hezbollah rocket strikes. The figures were compiled by The Associated Press, mostly from government officials on both sides.

South Lebanon welcomes country's army 18 Aug 06 http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060818/aponremiea/lebanon_israel

At least 810 people were killed in Lebanon during the 34-day campaign, most of them civilians. Israel suffered 157 dead — including 118 soldiers.

France calls for end to Lebanon blockade By ZEINA KARAM, Associated Press Writer 17 minutes ago

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060816/aponremiea/lebanon_israel

==================

jonathan becker obviously expects the Arab not to retaliate aghainst Israel for Israeli's indiscriminate bombings of Arab civilians and illegal occupation of lands.

That's the gist of his ludicrous defence of Israel i.e. it's the fault of the Palestinians.

Thanks for supporting my criticism of the pro-Israeli crowd, jonathan.

jonathan, thanks for the name calling. Norm, please take note.

From the real world I came from, a d_ _ _ is someone who thinks its ok for Israel to slaughter hundreds of thousands of Arab civilians and drive 8 million Arab refugees into refugee camps by illegally occupying their lands to build new homes and settlemts for Israeli Jews.

Jonathan, as a self-professed Jew living in Israel with no interest in finding out the facts, has no problem with this.

Oddly, my friends all over the word has a 4-letter word to describe you.

But I'm not not so much an asso to call you that in public : >

Zak is again caught defending Israel with falsehoods and misleading statements in his post on December 28, 2006 7:56 AM Here's the proof against Zak's false statements.

Zak’s first lie:

Newsflash, the Arabs in the Palestine Mandate, hence forward called "Palestinians" never accepted the 1948 Partition Plan.

Truth: The Zionist Jews in Palestine never accepted the 1948 Partition Plan. The Arab leaders never had a chance to officially respond to the Partition Plan with their views because of Israeli attacks on Palestinian territories to exploit the Arab unhappiness with the Partition Plan. < < <

Sources: "While the Yishuv's leadership formally accepted the 1947 Partition Resolution, large sections of Israel's society - including...Ben-Gurion - were opposed to or extremely unhappy with partition and from early on viewed the war as an ideal opportunity to expand the new state's borders beyond the UN earmarked partition boundaries and at the expense of the Palestinians." Israeli historian, Benny Morris, in "Tikkun", March/April 1998. "In internal discussion in 1938 [David Ben-Gurion] stated that 'after we become a strong force, as a result of the creation of a state, we shall abolish partition and expand into the whole of Palestine'...In 1948, Menachem Begin declared that: 'The partition of the Homeland is illegal. It will never be recognized. The signature of institutions and individuals of the partition agreement is invalid. It will not bind the Jewish people. Jerusalem was and will forever be our capital. Eretz Israel (the land of Israel) will be restored to the people of Israel, All of it. And forever." Noam Chomsky, "The Fateful Triangle."

Zak’s second lie: They and their brethren tried to wipe out the Jewish state at its birth and failed.

Truth: Israel was the one who first attacked and occupied lands designated for an Arab state in the region of Palestine. Israel also first attacked the Arabs in 3 out of 4 major conflicts. < < <

"In December 1947, the British announced that they would withdraw from Palestine by May 15, 1948. Palestinians in Jerusalem and Jaffa called a general strike against the partition. Fighting broke out in Jerusalem's streets almost immediately...Violent incidents mushroomed into all-out war...During that fateful April of 1948, eight out of thirteen major Zionist military attacks on Palestinians occurred in the territory granted to the Arab state." "Our Roots Are Still Alive" by the People Press Palestine Book Project. "Before the end of the mandate and, therefore before any possible intervention by Arab states, the Jews, taking advantage of their superior military preparation and organization, had occupied...most of the Arab cities in Palestine before May 15, 1948. Tiberias was occupied on April 19, 1948, Haifa on April 22, Jaffa on April 28, the Arab quarters in the New City of Jerusalem on April 30, Beisan on May 8, Safad on May 10 and Acre on May 14, 1948...In contrast, the Palestine Arabs did not seize any of the territories reserved for the Jewish state under the partition resolution." British author, Henry Cattan, "Palestine, The Arabs and Israel."

"Menahem Begin, the Leader of the Irgun, tells how 'in Jerusalem, as elsewhere, we were the first to pass from the defensive to the offensive...Arabs began to flee in terror...Hagana was carrying out successful attacks on other fronts, while all the Jewish forces proceeded to advance through Haifa like a knife through butter'...The Israelis now allege that the Palestine war began with the entry of the Arab armies into Palestine after 15 May 1948. But that was the second phase of the war; they overlook the massacres, expulsions and dispossessions which took place prior to that date and which necessitated Arab states' intervention." Sami Hadawi, "Bitter Harvest."

Zak’s second lie:

They and their brethren tried to wipe out the Jewish state at its birth and failed.

Truth: Israel was the one who first attacked and occupied lands designated for an Arab state in the region of Palestine. Israel also first attacked the Arabs in 3 out of 4 major conflicts. < < < "In December 1947, the British announced that they would withdraw from Palestine by May 15, 1948. Palestinians in Jerusalem and Jaffa called a general strike against the partition. Fighting broke out in Jerusalem's streets almost immediately...Violent incidents mushroomed into all-out war...During that fateful April of 1948, eight out of thirteen major Zionist military attacks on Palestinians occurred in the territory granted to the Arab state." "Our Roots Are Still Alive" by the People Press Palestine Book Project. "Before the end of the mandate and, therefore before any possible intervention by Arab states, the Jews, taking advantage of their superior military preparation and organization, had occupied...most of the Arab cities in Palestine before May 15, 1948. Tiberias was occupied on April 19, 1948, Haifa on April 22, Jaffa on April 28, the Arab quarters in the New City of Jerusalem on April 30, Beisan on May 8, Safad on May 10 and Acre on May 14, 1948...In contrast, the Palestine Arabs did not seize any of the territories reserved for the Jewish state under the partition resolution." British author, Henry Cattan, "Palestine, The Arabs and Israel."

"Menahem Begin, the Leader of the Irgun, tells how 'in Jerusalem, as elsewhere, we were the first to pass from the defensive to the offensive...Arabs began to flee in terror...Hagana was carrying out successful attacks on other fronts, while all the Jewish forces proceeded to advance through Haifa like a knife through butter'...The Israelis now allege that the Palestine war began with the entry of the Arab armies into Palestine after 15 May 1948. But that was the second phase of the war; they overlook the massacres, expulsions and dispossessions which took place prior to that date and which necessitated Arab states' intervention." Sami Hadawi, "Bitter Harvest."

Zak’s third lie:

Secondly, Israel did not control the vast majority of the lands aportioned to a Palestinian state in 1947 until 1967.

Truth: United Nations sources state that Israel occupied 77% of the lands in Palestine by 1948 when the Israeli Jews only legally owned around 6% of the lands in the 1940s < < <

Sources:

From the United Nations Archives:

http://www.un.org/Depts/dpa/ngo/history.html “After looking at various alternatives, the UN proposed the partitioning of Palestine into two independent States, one Palestinian Arab and the other Jewish, with Jerusalem internationalized (Resolution 181 (II) of 1947). One of the two States envisaged in the partition plan proclaimed its independence as Israel and in the 1948 war expanded to occupy 77 per cent of the territory of Palestine. Israel also occupied the larger part of Jerusalem. Over half the indigenous Palestinian population fled or were expelled. Jordan and Egypt occupied the other parts of the territory assigned by the partition resolution to the Palestinian Arab State which did not come into being. In the 1967 war, Israel occupied the remaining territory of Palestine, until then under Jordanian and Egyptian control (the West Bank and Gaza Strip). This included the remaining part of Jerusalem, which was subsequently annexed by Israel. The war brought about a second exodus of Palestinians, estimated at half a million. Security Council resolution 242 (1967) of 22 November 1967 called on Israel to withdraw from territories it had occupied in the 1967 conflict. “ Edward Said, an Israeli-born historian, "The Question of Palestine", states that clearly Jewish ownership of the land in Palestine as 6% "In 1948, at the moment that Israel declared itself a state, it legally owned a little more than 6 percent of the land of Palestine...After 1940, when the mandatory authority restricted Jewish land ownership to specific zones inside Palestine, there continued to be illegal buying (and selling) within the 65 percent of the total area restricted to Arabs. Thus when the partition plan was announced in 1947 it included land held illegally by Jews, which was incorporated as a fait accompli inside the borders of the Jewish state. And after Israel announced its statehood, an impressive series of laws legally assimilated huge tracts of Arab land (whose proprietors had become refugees, and were pronounced 'absentee landlords' in order to expropriate their lands and prevent their return under any circumstances)."

FYI>

David Ben-Gurion is a Zionist Jew who became first Israeli Prime Minster.

Menachame Begin is Israel’s seventh Prime Minster and the leader of the terrorist Irgin group which first started terrorist activities in the Middle East in the 1940s such as political bombings.

=============

Zak, whether I'm good at research or not doesn't excuse you from supporting your points and statements.

By not trying to supporting your points with facts or verifying them first, Zak, you are either a liar or someone who believes in misleading people to defend Israel on baseless grounds.

I have proven many times that you have made false statements or blatantly misleading ones and you show utterly no shame by mouthing again pro-Israeli statements that I have already proven false.

Shame on you.

Your defence of all the sins of Israel is that its the fault of the Palestinians.

The same Palestinians who Israeli slaughtered hundreds of thousands while driving million Arabs into refugee camps for the last 6 decades of Israeli invasions and occupations.

This "BLAME THE VICTIMS" defence is childish at the least and no one will really believe you here.

Not even the Jewish God, whose book of Jewish law or Talmud teaches that believers may not use human force to create a Jewish state before the coming of the Messiah.

By the way, if you are thinking of wearing me down by expecting me to give sources, think again.

I have a research database on a server in an undisclosed location that allows me to call up any facts on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and the common falsehoods preached by pro-Israeli advocates.

It allows me to be find information 30 seconds faster than any normal person who at least tries to google the topic. [I have no personal issues with abnormal people by the way.]

Still want to play games?

I don't look at it as a game. Jon, Zak and kes you all disgust me.

Maybe you should realize it's not about winning an argument over the internet and there are real people living the nightmare.

Dar, I'm not the one playing games with the truth.

So why are you lumping me with the pro-Israeli crowd who does not use facts and research to back up their defence of Israel?

What have you done for the real people living the nightmare in the Middle East?

How many of us know about this nightmare if Norm did not post articles referring to actual atrocities done by Israel?

With the relentless Israeli progana and misinformationm machine, the plight of the Palestinians goes unnoticed.

All I do is to make sure that the people are aware of the facts behind the sufferings of the Arabs and Palestinians at the hands of Israel for the last 60 years.

Unlike Zak and Jonathan, my conscience is clear.

And I refuse to back down from a debate where the other party resorts to lies and misinformation to whitewash the Arab holocaust in the Middle East where hundreds of thousands of Arab civilians are slaughtered by Israelis with 8 million Arabs living as refugees.

My history teachers and lecturers would indeed be disgusted if I left the Israeli crowd crowd the cyberspace with lies and false information.

================

Check out the Israeli propaganda campaign in cyberspace for yourself:

Israel backed by army of cyber soldiers From Yonit Farago in Jerusalem The Times July 28, 2006

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,251-2289232,00.html

WHILE Israel fights Hezbollah with tanks and aircraft, its supporters are campaigning on the internet. Israel’s Government has thrown its weight behind efforts by supporters to counter what it believes to be negative bias and a tide of pro-Arab propaganda. The Foreign Ministry has ordered trainee diplomats to track websites and chatrooms so that networks of US and European groups with hundreds of thousands of Jewish activists can place supportive messages....

Dar, is it right to let them spread Israeli propaganda without letting the public be aware of the facts?

And is it right for the pro-Israeli crowd to attack ansd insult people to avoid addressing the facts and research in their points?

My conscience is clear in this matter, Dar.

What about yours?

Unlike most of the pro-Israeli crowd, I was at onegoodmove since last year November, happpy to engage in discussions on religion, philosophy and atheism.

Everyone at this website knows that.

I did not participate at any thread where Israel was discused until July 2006 at the hight of the Israeli invasion and air bombing of Lebanon this year.

ONly then did I got sick of all the falsehoods and propaganda by most of the pro-Israeli bloggers, who appeared out of nowhere, in an attempt to whitewash history to sweep the plight of millions of Arab refugees under the carpet.

I'm sorry that I just can't but a moral coward by not saying anything.

I really had to intervene because Norm's website is a place where people share credible research and findings with one another to further the gathering of knowledge on sciencem, politics, philosophy and religion.

The last thing I want is for this place to be another platform for spreading Israeli propaganda, which is easily refuted by historical facts and research.