WOW, its like the republicans want to lose this election. heck...maybe they do, then they can blame the dems for not turning things around in the next 2 years and take the white house in 08...or am I just being paranoid here and these people are just really stupid.

Well, kinda ironic that the christian right is finaly seeing they have been played for fools all this time. They probibly have been the weight to tip the scales in the Republican party's favor till now. I honestly don't see them putting their power behind the Democrats, so whats the chance of them forming together to make their own party? We've got a party like that in Canada known as the Canadian Reform Alliance Party, and luckily we've been able to keep that CRAP from running our Country.

I honestly hope the evangelicals create their own political party. Along with the much-needed marginalization of that group, we'd have the added bonus of getting to watch some assclown like Falwell campaign for president.

I don't particularly care for Secretary Rice - neigh, I rather dislike her. But I give her high marks for referring to Mr. Dybul & his family with such respect.

Interesting. It seems that when you seperate the GOP from the Christian they are almost on their way to being marginally decent people.

Kudos to Condi for giving the family the respect it deserved. I honestly know nothing about this man's qualifications, but props to the GOP for at least thinking outside the box on appointing people.

Hm, semi-kudos to cRice, but she's simply pandering here. Her comments stink of face-saving PR for the election.

Some days, I wish one could collectively slap an entire group of religious nuts, first and foremost among them the Baptist in the clip who referenced gays/bisexuals/etc as "sodomites".

Silly wingnut, Jesus is for proles. Get with the new millenium. "Evidence" is the new standard of cool.

Let me just show my hand from the get go - I'm a Christian, and a Southern Baptist. I am a regular on this site because it's witty, intelligent, and you folks know how to have fun. As a Baptist, I am ashamed that someone would say such horrible things. I'm sorry. Jesus is the one I look to for wisdom in times like this. The foolish words by this politically oriented man are foreign to what Jesus would say or do.

I know that left wing people are eager to drive a wedge between the plutocratic heart of the GOP and its right-evangelical limbs. We want this for a different of reasons. Some of us want some of that religious vote for ourselves, others want the giant to go back to electoral sleep.

The real question is whether the disapproval disagreements will really matter. Disapproval of GOP leaders by some right-evangelicals is not new, despite what some people believe. It has also not stopped these voters from being mobilized very well. It's really a fiction that the Christian right has been used by the party. They are one component of an electoral coalition and have got basically what they have wanted--symbolic gestures, a gay marriage amendment push and certain kinds of judges. No group in any party gets everything they want--being a Republican means that you understand this fact and act as though you are very serious about getting power. Being a Democrat means that disagreements about policy and strategy must dissolve into infighting and disorganization. The miniscule diference between Howard Dean and Rahm Emmanuel is enough to get some Democrats all worked up and bickering among themselves. For the GOP, the conflict between God and Mammon isn't even enough to drive it apart. The discipline of that party is nothing short of phenomenal, and it has been that way for a long time.

Rice was always the neo-con candidate, not the Christian right candidate anyway. Bush is both of those things, but Rice mainly appeals to those who want some shred of continuity on middle east policy. Democrats should be wishing and praying (literally, if you wish) that the Christian right gets their way in 2008, because then the Dems will be facing that knucklehead Bill Frist. No one else in the GOP field is going to get the Christian right excited at all.

"As a Baptist, I am ashamed that someone would say such horrible things. I'm sorry. Jesus is the one I look to for wisdom in times like this."

It amazes me that someone who is religious would not know what the Bible - the book of your religion - says about homosexuality.

As long as you continue to push and push and push this gay thing into everyone's face, you're going to get backlash. It's called a free society.

Dende says: It's really a fiction that the Christian right has been used by the party.

You don’t think the Ohio votes made a big difference in the 2004 election? Ohio was the major battlefield between evangelical Christians and the sodomites…err…gays. Ohio politics is/was steeped in anti-gay propaganda. It had all the hallmarks of classic politics the Rovian way.

And Dende opines: No one else in the GOP field is going to get the Christian right excited at all.

You did not hear the thunderous applause Mr. Romney got at last Sunday’s anti-gay bash in a big Baptist church? It was broadcasted nationwide. Mitt is so charismatic and even has the evangelical hairdo. I bet Mitt probably passed out CTR rings to everyone there. Mitt has the ability to get these evangelicals to read the Book of Mormon. Showing them his temple underwear might be asking a little too much, though.

CTR rings: Choose The Right pinkie rings a lot of Mormons wear.

Tough slogging for the Right these days. They have to attack GLBT while at the same time defending them in order to attack Islam. The poor bastards. It's not easy being wrong.

Independent, Thanks for your push back. When I refer to relying on Jesus for wisdom, I specifically mean the homosexuality issue. Jesus said nothing about this, but did show grace to others who were caught in sexual behavior considered sinful. I am well aware of what other biblical passages say about homosexuality, and all I will offer at this point is that there are multiple ways of reading those texts.

As for your comment that "As long as you continue to push and push and push this gay thing into everyone's face, you're going to get backlash. It's called a free society," I quite agree. I do not believe it's something that belongs in the media or in the courts or the legislature.

Again, thanks for your response. I hope my post was received as respectful.

Peace.

Jimmy Carter's book on the divide of the southern Baptists provides clear evidence that there is a split within the southern Baptists. It would be wonderful if Rice's comments found their way to the forefront of local news, local discussion, or within religious congregations. I think any discussion by the religious right about how to treat those they consider 'sinners' would be a good thing. The split amongst Baptists, documented eloquently by Jimmy Carter, shows that there still are Christians who take seriously the mandate that thou shall not judge; a media firestorm about Rice's comments could provide more opportunity for much needed discussion amongst Christians.

In regards to the motivation behind her comments, I would suggest that her comments represent that she is "jumping ship" of the administration. She is, perhaps, no longer "toeing the line" of the Karl Rovean gang. Her comments permit her to separate from the administration and the extreme far right. This is politically wise as most Baptists are loving at heart and do not take great offence at treating a sinner with respect. Rice is thus able to distance herself from the radicals and the administration in order to shore up her future possibilities of holding office. It may be too late of a jump, it may even be a Rovean tactic, or it may be that she falls back in line at a later time, but I think she and others will surprise us over the next few weeks with statements that separate themselves from the moral extremists.

Cowboy--

"It's really a fiction that the Christian right has been used by the party."

When I say this I mean 'cynically used' or 'manipulated' as this David Kuo guy claims. Waah-wah so Karl Rove called you a nut (guess what? Some of you are), you've got 90% of what was politically possible to deliver. Kuo is really incoherent--he whines that Bush pumped up the faith-based stuff and didn't care about following through with it and doing it right. But that describes just about everything with Bush.

Sure the Christian right is 'used' to win elections everywhere and likely delivered Ohio. My point is that they are not getting the shaft from the GOP. Look at unions, environmentalists, feminists, African-Americans, and the poor in the Democratic party. Any one of those groups is getting less bang for the buck than the Christian right is getting from the GOP. Look at all the Dem challengers for Congress this year--how many African-Americans are there? Not enough to justify their rock-solid support of my party. The Christian right, however, is well-represented in high-level GOP positions.

I'm a Christian and I'm on the left--I'd love nothing more than for evangelicals to leave the GOP because they feel used and abused. But it's just not happening. The best case scenario is that a few of them become disillusioned by scandal of the Foley variety and stay home.

"CTR rings: Choose The Right pinkie rings a lot of Mormons wear."

Er, I know. Not a pinkie ring a regular ol' ring-finger ring. I think I still have one somewhere... I didn't say right-evangelicals would not vote for Romney or Rice-type GOP candidate. In fact my whole point is that they will come out and punch their card for the GOP even if it isn't their fave. Republicans are disciplined about this. That's why this Rice thing means about zip. The Christian right keeps its eye on the ball and does not leave the GOP at the slightest offense.

It scares me to think the GOP might nominate and select Mitt Romney not because he is a savvy politician but because there is a unmentionable legend floating around about Mr. Romney being the proverbial Latter-Day-Saint who will save this nation and rescue the Constitution. (Or something about: “…hanging by a thread”).

Dende -- If you put on your CTR ring and I put on my CTL ring then we make a fist and connect the two rings together, will it cause some sort of a cosmic unbalanced condition? A time-space continuum warp? Nah. Probably just some of my silver plate would rub off.

"If you put on your CTR ring and I put on my CTL ring then we make a fist and connect the two rings together, will it cause some sort of a cosmic unbalanced condition?"

That made me laugh! Please tell me you're not joking and there really is such a thing as a "Choose the Left" ring! Then tell me how to get one.