onegoodmove

yes, the american people are the last to know, but let me play devils advocate and ask, does it matter if the american people know or dont know? Would it change a darn thing? isn't Democracy, even a representative one ultimately an illusion? When was the last time the american people reall y had a say in our national government policy? if Bubba doesen't know whats going on, maybe its for the best. For that matter, maybe the Bubba's of the world are incapable of understanding. I lean towards the incapable part because we weem to have a fairly large part of our population that is simply incapable of recognising the severity of the situation. We deserve whatever we get for our stupidity, and 30 years from now some idiot is going to be making a documentry talking about how america was innocent and then then some terrorists came along and wacked us. As if we arent destroying our country ourselves.

Well, Anton, you ask: “does it matter if the american people know or dont know? Would it change a darn thing?” I assume that you don’t have any friends or family over there. Let’s say you have a son and I am the principal of his school. You see a news report that there is a gunman running around the school where your son is. Then, I hold a press conference and tell everyone “Everything is fine! There have been some wild exaggerations but, trust me! We are having the best school year that we have ever had. Relax, don’t worry about it”.

Now, either there really is a gunmen running around the school or the principal is being honest and you shouldn’t worry. Which way do you go? Wouldn’t you naturally want more information? If you saw the news report where there actually was a gunman at your kids school wouldn’t you go to school and try to save your kid? My point is; there is enough evidence out there that leads us to doubt what our president is telling us. We should pursue the truth (We can handle it)! If they KNOW the war is a failure, if they KNOW it’s getting worse by the day, we need to know so we can get our loved ones out of there!

You also ask;”When was the last time the american people reall y had a say in our national government policy?” Well, several times! Do you recall when Bush was going to turn over our port security to the United Arab Emirates? He was going to veto any bill that would stop him. Well, public outcry was so strong in opposing his plan that Bush had no choice but to acquiesce to the will of the people!

As far as saying things like: “We deserve whatever we get for our stupidity” That’s just horrifically negative Jerry Falwell shit. You have such disdain for the “Bubba’s of the world” who are “incapable of understanding” but how are they and you ever going to have a chance to begin to sort out these complexities with out having access to the facts? Remember, the truth has no political bias.

the truth, at least in politics, is a matter of perspective. I dont deny that Bush is a liar, what I'm saying is that if people have no realised this fact by now, then chances are they never will. The man has been caught red handed so many times that its truelly mind-bogling that he has any credibility left at all, with anyone. You bring up the Dubi Port deal, but thats probably the worst example of all because it was so reactionary. Just because a company is Arab does not mean its terrorist, we have many french, english, etc companies in the US that own ports and other businesses that can be considered a "security risk", so why pick on an arab one, especially when its an Arab Em. one. But Im getting away from the point I was originally trying to make in my first post. My point was that the congress and the presidency dont really listen to the people when it matters. case in point: most americans support the idea that torture is wrong and that we should abide by the Geneve Conventions, and yet the congress has said that it will allow Bush to "interpret" the geneva conventions language.

As for Bubba, yes, i do have disdain for Bubba. the only way to reform Buba is to give him an education, but this country has no real education system. case in point: the California graduation exam tests kids on subject matter from the 9th grade level. Why? Apparently because a vast majority of the kids didnot learn much of anything from grade 10-12. Thats horriffic, but it is a fact that our population is kept stupid, and i think it's intended to be that way. Until thaty changes, trying to explain much of anything to the Bubbas of the world simply wont work.

Anton, I get your point and for a certain percent of the population, I belive you are correct.

While an ever increasing number of Americans are awaking to the futility of the war, the gigantic spin machine has retarded that awakening, significantly. That combined with the individual Americans' tendency to live in denial about many, many things, gives the impression that there is no end to it.

However, there is a point at which the present sliding balance will topple. As finally happened during the Vietnam horror show.

Public opinion is largely ignored by this government except for pre election polling. The gap between what the American people want and need, and the governments' intentions and plans, is very wide in America.

A gap that is great enough to question the validity of Americas' claim to be a democracy.

Back to the point: I believe that a certain percent of Americans will live in denial until the very end. There were some Germans still loyal to the Nazi party and Hitler, years after tyhe end of the war that destroyed their country.

But, it appears to me that that sleeping giant, the American population, is sleeping fitfully and showing signs of waking up.

I hope you are right thomas

One point about Vietnam, when that war was going on reporters were actually reporting. As you know, thats no longer the case. So while you are right about how things worked out in Vietnam, the question to ask is, will america similarly turn the tide this time in a situation where the national media is actually a part of the propaganda machine of the government. Certainly some people are fitting the voide left by a responsible media (Jon and Keith come to mind), but we also live in an increasingly fractionalized society where a person watching FOX news will never learn what is really going on because he will never switch the channel to get a different perspective.

Read "Manufacturing Consent" by Edward S. Herman and Noam Chomsky.

"Manufacturing Consent" - check your local library, they probably have a copy of the video in the documentary section. Definitely worth watching.