onegoodmove

This post has no references. A search on Google News does not give any other article which mentions this.

Please update this providing references to what the post states.

Thank you

at first, i thought that could have been a real news bite containing overheard conversations between israeli and american top brass.

after my googling and yahooing came up empty, i was both humbled by my own gullibility and underwhelmed by the attempt at humor in the entry.

ah well. let's see what's on onion....

I got it right away, and I wasn't underwhelmed--pretty clever, I'd say. I guess most humor now is, uh, flashier than this.

How can so few people recognize satire these days? Was there a re-education seminar I missed or something?

as a resident of israel who cringes at each account of a civilian death, i am disgusted by your supposed attempt at satire (which, incidentally, involves a "cheap jew" wanting his money back -- nice). do you think israelis laugh about dead lebanese civilians? do you think any of us find this funny?

400,000 dead iraqis -- don't see you laughing there. don't see you teasing american troops -- making jokes at their expense. but israel's your perennial punching back -- always the punching bag. so sorry, but when pushed to the limit, we do hit back. and that's no laughing matter.

Mobius1ski, I don't wish to try and speak for Norm here, but I think you'll find he was pretty solidly against the invasion of Iraq too.

Jews stereotypically haggling over money, how original..

wow more anti-semitic crap. Why am I not surprised?

You have a decent nose for political news. It is a shame that you have to let your prejudices rule your life.

I said Israel, but Israel is immunized from criticism because there are assholes who turn every criticism of Israel into anti-semitism. It is not. The point I making was that in spite of using smart bombs a hell of a lot of civilians were being killed, and that Israel being sensitive to the criticism was passing the blame back to the United States and its bombs. I've made the same criticism of the United States countless times. It is a sorry state of affairs that there friends of Israel who are so afraid of any criticism of Israel that they repeatedly trot out anti-semitism bullshit. You may not like the joke, you may be offended that I think Israel is not being as careful as I think they could or should be, but to make unfounded charges of anti-semitism is disgusting.

"I said Israel, but Israel is immunized from criticism because there are assholes who turn every criticism of Israel into anti-semitism. It is not. The point I making was that in spite of using smart bombs a hell of a lot of civilians were being killed"

You're not criticizing Israel. You're repeatedly making the same baseless point, over and over, with the most harsh and argumentative language possible. Just like in the Iraq conflict you refuse to listen to or understand the reasons why civilians are dying. You just keep marching to the rat-a-tat of blame Israel, blame the US, blame everyone.

Nevermind that Hezbollah and Al-Qaeda both have long histories of hiding within civilian populations, putting training centers near hospitals and schools, or just blowing up scores of civilians on a whim. Never mind all of that - it's the US and Israel! US and Israel! US and Israel! Et cetera.

The funny thing about that is you're playing right into their hands. That's what they want you to think. That's why they endanger civilians - so you will come out of the experience putting all the blame on the people trying to stop the terrorists rather than on the terrorists themselves. Why do you think hostage takers take hostages? Because they know that if the hostage is killed trying to bring them down, they won't take the blame.

You're like a speaking doll. They pull the string, you spit out the pre-recorded phrase. US and Israel! US and Israel!

Hi SS and mobius1ski, the rest of the world DO KNOW that the Israelis do not give a damn for the deaths of innocent Lebanese civilains and the desctruction of a newly democractically elected Lebanaese nation with no control or affiliation to the Hezbollah.

If you disagree, please provide credible proof and sources.

The whole world is disgusted by Israel's senseless and discriminate nation air strikes against lebanon for a case of kidnapping. The rockets attacks into other parts of Israel came only as a response to Israel air strikes, so don't use that as an excuse.

Besides bombings all civilain infrastructure with now ties or linkage to Hezebollah, even United Nationals personal are fair game to israeli bombing of Lebanon.

4 killed when Israel bombs U.N. post 26 July 06

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060725/aponremiea/mideastfightingunobservers5;ylt=AknAfopzbDvK4isvcp1wStEUvioA;ylu=X3oDMTBiMW04NW9mBHNlYwMlJVRPUCUl

BEIRUT, Lebanon - A U.N. observer post was hit by an Israeli airstrike in south Lebanon Tuesday, killing four peacekeepers, U.N. officials said.

A bomb directly hit the building and shelter of an Indian patrol base from the observer force in the town of Khiyam near the eastern end of the border with

Israel, said Milos Struger, spokesman for the U.N. peacekeeping force in Lebanon known as UNIFIL.

====

Missiles hit a Lebanese TV station hard http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060722/apentv/mideastfightingtelevision;ylt=Ar4u5xr.MNaKCVUdzrq3oeVxFb8C;ylu=X3oDMTA0cDJlYmhvBHNlYwM-

By SAM F. GHATTAS, Associated Press Writer Sat Jul 22, 6:52 PM ET

BEIRUT, Lebanon - Israel has been unable to silence Hezbollah's television station, its powerful voice at home and in the Arab world, despite 11 days of bombing. But warplanes on Saturday did knock a Lebanese station often critical of the guerrillas off the air in parts of the country...

... Three missiles leveled a transmission station in Fatqa, about 10 miles northwest of Beirut, leaving it a mountain of rubble and twisted antennas. The head of LBC's transmission center, Sueliman Chidiac, was killed....

...LBC was an unusual target for Israel to hit. The private station — mainly Christian-owned and once the mouthpiece for the Lebanese Forces, a powerful Christian militia during the 1975-1990 civil war — is often critical of the Shiite Muslim Hezbollah. An LBC comedy show caricaturing Hezbollah's leader raised protests in June.

The criticism continued in the early days of Israel's offensive against Lebanon, launched July 12 after Hezbollah guerrillas captured two Israeli soldiers. But even on LBC it has been increasingly overshadowed by national solidarity as casualties grew in the bombardment...

And you, AJ, are another sort of speaking doll, no more original in thought than the rest of mankind.

But I think and many might agree with me that you need to lay off the crack. You're no more a beacon of reality than anybody else.

Well, at least I hope you're enjoying your own reality.

cheers

"If you disagree, please provide credible proof and sources."

How convenient that you don't hold yourself to such high standards. All you have to do is say 'the whole world knows!', and post two links about bombs hitting a UN outpost and a TV station. Like those prove your claim without a doubt.

Why don't you just fly over to Lebanon and offer your services to Hezbollah? Oh, yeah, you'd be beheaded as soon as you stepped off the plane. But that's all the fault of the US and Israel ... right?

Joe,

I see no evidence from you countering the claims Kes made not even one link. Do you hold yourself to the same standard as you expect from others?

Average_Joe, if you consider providing credible proof and sources as a high standard, it's obvious you don't have much standards.

I have always provided my evidences with links and titles for people to verify.

You should try that sometimes and people won't criticise you as much : >

Btw, before you make any more claims with no proof, my country has sent medical supplies to the Middle East already.

And I am part of a charitable network between the local Chinese temples, Hindu temples and Muslaim mosgues to channel donations to Lebanon.

What have you done by the way, besides championing the right of Israel to kill innocent Lebanese and that it is perfectly reasonable to killl 750 Lebabanese with air strikes for every 24 Israeli civilians killed by Hezbollah's answering rocket fire.

Oh yes, by not supporting any ceasefire, the deaths of the innocents in Lebanon are definitely the fault of US and Israel.

Do you expect the Hezbollah not to fight back against Israeli ILLEGAL airbombing of Lebanon with rocket attacks into Israel?

Do you expect Arabs living in Palestine and the West Bank to accept Israeli occupation and control of all access points to workplaces, water and communications infrastructure in silence?

Do people like you and Zak still live in the same world like the rest of us?

Sorry Joe, but what Israel is doing is reprehensible.

We could argue that they are doing it to stop rocket attacks coming from the south of lebanon, but then it doesn't justify them bombing the capital city which is in the far north.

There are numerous reports in the European media of housing estates in the north being bombed, whole infrastructure being bombed to pieces, sending letters warning people to leave in the south then numerous reports of people being rocket attacked in thier cars, one even as they were about to enter a hospital.

We have seen reports and footage of White Phosper being used on civilians which isn't being denied by Israel.

Then you have the recent news of UN workers being killed. Israel claiming the bombing is an accident, except for the fact they were shelling the place for hours before the people where killed (hiding in a bunker) and then proceeded to shell the rescue workers who went in to see who was alive.

The current ratio of deaths is over 10 dead for every israeli dead.

There is no good vs bad in this conflict (which is what the media tries to portray), Israel are acting exactly like terrorists.

It is more distressing that the US government are actually helping them.

To all of you, especially those who criticize Israel's actions and/or defend Hezbollah's or Hamas' actions.

If you had to live in a country run by Israel or Hamas or Hezbollah, which would you choose and why?

If you're going to give a copout answer like "neither" dont bother. Choose one. I particularly want to see whether Norm and kes relish the idea of living in a society run by the people they're defending here.

Zak,

The answer in my case is Israel. Why? Well the flippant answer is I'd be safe from Israeli rockets and bombs. The odds of being killed in Israel by a Hamas or Hezbollah terrorist being less than being killed by Israel in the other countries. Your argument is the same tired argument we hear in the United States when we criticize our government. It takes the form of if you hate the United States so much why don't you move to insert the country we are currently fighting. It is a bogus argument and not worthy of you.

As to your second comment "I particularly want to see whether Norm and kes relish the idea of living in a society run by the people they're defending here." Please provide evidence of where I've defended Hezbollah or correct your misstatement. I'm getting quite tired of the repeated lie that criticism of Israel is defense of Hezbollah or Hamas that you and others repeat ad nauseam. It is dishonest.

has anyone else noticed the grand irony of this site, which routinely condemns, mocks and deconstructs religious fundamentalism while also defending hamas and hezbollah?

i assume we all understand that hamas and hezbollah are comprised of brainwashed brainwashers whose religious doctrines support state-controlled media, women as 2nd-class citizens, strapping bombs to children (hamas), and of course, hiding themselves in masks and toting guns... more than a little reminiscent of the Ku Klux Klan.

you know that those gangs have won the propaganda war when supposedly free-thinking progressive sites like onegoodmove and its bloggers are swept up in a frenzy of moral superiority, ultimately defending (or providing rationale for) religiously fueled terror.

has anyone else noticed the grand irony of this site, which routinely condemns, mocks and deconstructs religious fundamentalism while also defending hamas and hezbollah?

Lets see the evidence that I defend the terrorist acts of Hezbollah or Hamas. If see the argument again from you without evidence it will be the last comment you make on this blog. In fact provide the evidence or apologize and the same goes for the rest of you who continue to distort what I say. You know who you are.

kes:

let alone the fact:

BBC Admits Many Lebanese Casualties are Terrorists 15:22 Jul 23, '06

(IsraelNN.com) The British Broadcasting Corp. (BBC) has admitted that many of the victims of Israeli retaliation in Lebanon are terrorists and not innocent civilians. A BBC reporter said he saw Hizbullah terrorists using a private home and added, "It is difficult to quantify who is a terrorist and who is a civilian."

Media reports have emphasized that Israeli air strikes have killed more than 350 Lebanese civilians, prompting accusations that the IDF is carrying out "collective punishment" on the country.

...most israelis feel their hands are bound and they don't know what else to do to end the threat against them, other than supporting their government's actions, which they sincerely believe to be in their best interest. they may "accept" civilian casualties -- but they certainly don't like it, they're certainly not happy about it, and they DO definitely care.

*here's my receipt, prick.

Dear Daniel,

Your payment for $150.00 USD to helplebanon@atrissi.com has been sent.

Payment Details ---------------------------------Amount: $150.00 USD Transaction ID: 7VA68331T7664405B

Note: i am an american jew living in israel and i am oppposed to israel's present actions in lebanon. i am sorry for all that your people are enduring. what i first believed was a legitimate act of self-defense has proven to be all that war ever is -- a tremendous injustice which costs many innocent lives. i'm so sorry.

Thank you for using PayPal! The PayPal Team

norm: i've been down this road with you before. this isn't about using the antisemitism card to brush away criticism of israel. i welcome criticism of israel when it's legitimate and deserved. i criticize israel regularly myself, as my blog will evidence. just look at the love it's earned me. that said, your constant attacks on israel are often poorly contextualized, ill-informed, and seem to have more to do with your hatred of religion than it does with any meaningful, rational critique of israeli policy.

playing the "antisemitism is a charge used to brush away criticism of israel" card is in some ways is no different from calling legitimate criticism of israel antisemitic. it because an excuse to evade uncomfortable self-examination of what may very well be one's hostility towards jews.

So, 3cheers4, are we now saying that calling Israel's actions shameful is support of Hezbollah and Hamas? And protesting Israel's actions makes a rationale for terror?

I am dead tired of the spurious logic being used by both camps in this argument and on this site in general. Please, take awhile to think about your posts. Perhaps even consider the opposing viewpoint. Or might that give us all less to bicker about?

According to the European Monitoring Centre on Racism and Xenophobia (EUMC), part of the Council of Europe, some contemporary examples of anti-semitism include:

"1. Denying the Jewish people the right to self-determination, e.g. by claiming that the existence of a state of Israel is a racist endeavor 2. Applying double standards by requiring of Israel a behavior not expected or demanded of any other democratic nation; 3. Drawing comparisons of contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis; 4. Holding Jews collectively responsible for actions of the State of Israel."

"Working Definition of Antisemitism" EUMC 2005. http://eumc.eu.int/eumc/material/pub/AS/AS-WorkingDefinition-draft.pdf

One more well-articulated example from the same article:

"Accusing Jewish citizens of being more loyal to Israel, or to the alleged priorities of Jews worldwide, than to the interests of their own nations."

ie. viewing Jews/Jewish power structures as a 5th column.

That said, most NGO and government documents on contemporary anti-semitism emphasize that "criticism of Israel similar to that leveled against any other country cannot be regarded as antisemitic."

I think that, for all of us, it is easy to let our anger move us towards the easier, hind-brain stances on inter-group conflict. After all, it's part of our evolutionary psychology. But colder readings of historical events allow us to separate the honest criticism and the more irrational prejudices, using criteria like those listed above.

Daniel,

Whether you consider my criticism of Israel legitimate or not, whether you consider it ill-informed is not evidence of anti-semitism. Who is it that decides what is legitimate, what is informed, what is deserved. Why not argue based on the facts and not poison the well with the anti-semitism charge. You label me as anti-semetic as a way of discounting my views without having to make the argument that what I say is false. I find it remarkable that calling bullshit on the charge is evidence in your mind that the charge is true. Now explain to me how one counters the charge of anti-semitism when raising it is viewed as evidence of anti-semitism. How fucking convienent is that. My hostility is directed at Israel and its policies not at Jews. Furthermore, I have never claimed that individual Israeli citizens didn't care. Please provide your evidence for that statement or retract it. You're right about one thing I think fundamentalists of all stripes are the problem. The fact that religions have more than their fair share of such nuts, I believe is undeniable. A question for you did you consider Jon Stewart's bit on Jewish accountants in Iraq as anti-semetic, or does it just qualify him as a self-hating jew?

"Self-hating jew" is actually an epithet, like the use of "Uncle Tom" in the black community. It has been used by people on all sides of the issues an an ad-hominem attack: by fundamentalist Jews to undermine moderate criticisms of Israeli policy, as well as others trying to undermine a Jewish person's opinions that are perceieved to deviate from the Jewish mainstream (which does not exist).

Psychoanalytic theories on "Self-hatred" have been discredited. Psychologists no longer believe that stereotypes are internalized and result in the self-hatred phenomenon. Instead, the more accurate term "low self-esteem" is used in cases when individuals have these feelings. That is, if they're not joking, like Jon Stewart was.

Let me make a wild guess, I think those that accuse me of anti-semitism have this in mind

2. Applying double standards by requiring of Israel a behavior not expected or demanded of any other democratic nation

norm, whoa. seems i struck a sensitive chord. of course you're absolutely right, i should have provided evidence. on one hand, i wholeheartedly admit that there is no overt evidence of endorsing terror (i.e., no one has come forth and said, "i heart hamas"). on the other hand, and i mean no disrespect, i believe you do it automatically, perhaps without realizing it. as july comes to a close, let's look at all the headlines of your israel-related posts this month. i invite readers to skim through these articles, and discern what patterns they may....

July 26, 2006 UN Slams Israel over Lebanon Strikes as Killing Rages on Reckless Israel troops 'ignored' UN plea July 24, 2006 Promises Kept Promises Broken Nasrallah's Game this answers a few questions I had. July 23, 2006 Teach Your Children. Israeli girls write messages on shells ready to be fired towards Hezbollah targets in southern Lebanon. Israel Pounds Lebanon War Crimes July 20, 2006 Mideast Crisis Is there a war? MSNBC provides a clue while Jon Stewart and the Daily Show applaud the surgical nautre of Israel's response. July 17, 2006 Children die in convoy attack as Israel widens Lebanon assault July 16, 2006 Self Defense July 14, 2006 When Will They Ever Learn THE REAL THREAT TO ISRAEL related: Rumor Israel bites the hand that feeds it. July 13, 2006. Israel's Two-Front Battle Israel's Gaza Offensive What should Israel do, they should negotiate, they should protect their people, but not by violating the Geneva Conventions. July 07, 2006 Balance on the Gaza Story. related: EU warns Israel on Gaza attacks July 05, 2006 Israel's Gaza Problem [FYI: i could have also gone through the blog entries for scores of additional similiar material, but i'll get to my point.]

your pattern of posts reflects two things. first, israel is using excessive force. even pro-israel bloggers here have espoused this view, and i certainly do. second, you pick on israel exclusively and frequently. there seems to be an absence of links reporting on israeli vicitms, international violations and condemnations of terror groups, the provactive roles of iran, syria and lebanon, periods of israeli military restraint amid years of hezbollah rocketing, etc. i interpret this absence as a tacit endorsement of terrorists, perhaps as the "freedom-fighters" they see themselves to be, in all of their delusional splendor. (if they were truly freedom fighters, wouldn't they rise up against their oppressive, money-pilfering warlords and dictators, instead of their neighbors?)

if this is a misinterpretation of your one-sidedness, please enlighten me, if you're so inclined. the bottom line is that it's your web site and you're free to criticize the world through whichever lens you wish. in doing so, you you paint a decidedly monochromatic and grossly incomplete view of israel, bereft of nuanced understanding of the system of terror.

"i interpret this absence as a tacit endorsement of terrorists" It is true that I have directed much of my criticism at Israel, but I don't believe it follows that doing so is a tacit endorsement of terrorists. I have also directed much of my criticism against the United States for the excesses our country has committed in Iraq, Is that a tacit endorsement of al Qaeda. I don't think so. Furthermore if you read the comments in the posts you reference you'll find that I've made clear that I don't condone Hezbollah's or Hamas' acts. I believe the coverage in the United States is grossly tilted in favor of Israel, and my posts are an attempt to provide some balance to the overall coverage.

norm, thanks for your response. although i disagree with you on this particular matter, i still consider myself a fan of this site in general, and appreciate your clarity of thought on other matters.

Whether you consider my criticism of Israel legitimate or not, whether you consider it ill-informed is not evidence of anti-semitism.

i didn't say it is, nor did i accuse you of being an antisemite. i said that your joke invoked a negative stereotype and that it was horribly callous and misrepresents israeli feelings towards lebanese civilian casualties.

Who is it that decides what is legitimate, what is informed, what is deserved.

you're an armchair activist sitting behind a computer in utah trusting news reports cast by a media you know better than to trust.

i'm an activist living in israel who spent a year visiting palestinian villages and jewish settlements, and watching and experiencing first hand what's going on here. many of the people you read about in the newspaper, both on the right and the left, are people i actually know in life.

so -- who do you think is in a better position to speak on the situation in israel and palestine?

You label me as anti-semetic as a way of discounting my views without having to make the argument that what I say is false.

i never labelled you an antisemite. neither in this post, nor in our previous interactions. what i have said is that you unwittingly wade into antisemitic territory more often than is healthy or wise.

Now explain to me how one counters the charge of anti-semitism when raising it is viewed as evidence of anti-semitism. How fucking convienent is that.

that wasn't my point. my point was that rather than hearing the reasons why people presume your remarks to be antisemitic and reflecting upon the way you're framing your arguments (ultimately so that you can learn to phrase your arguments in a way that won't be heard as incendiary) you brush aside all such feelings with the (in some cases true, in most cases not) claim that the charge of antisemitism is levelled to silence opposition to israeli policies. ie., rather than asking yourself why people think you're making antisemitic statements and changing the way you talk about israel so that it can digested more easily, you say people are trying to shut you up because they're censorship-happy zionist apologists.

My hostility is directed at Israel and its policies not at Jews.

see the statements posted above re: what constitutes antisemitism in 2006, and the post i linked to earlier in which i address my previous beef w/ you over the mearshimer/walt paper. on that occassion you attacked american jews, ie. "the israel lobby," as putting the interests of israel before those of the u.s. i said that that was a traditional antisemitic canard and you said i was calling you an antisemite. i was not. i was warning you to be careful about making such spurious claims, because of their historic nature, and pointed you to contrary evidence which disproved your remark. you emailed me to say you would not publish my comments.

Furthermore, I have never claimed that individual Israeli citizens didn't care.

read back -- those remarks were in response to kes, not to you.

You're right about one thing I think fundamentalists of all stripes are the problem. The fact that religions have more than their fair share of such nuts, I believe is undeniable.

if you think what's going on here has the first thing to do with religion, you've proven how badly you misunderstand this conflict. religion is just a tool of manipulation employed by the power players who are charlatans and crooks interested in their own power and pocketbooks. they use religion to sweep the masses into a frenzy, often distorting the actual teachings of the religions themselves in order to advance their political goals. fundamentalism isn't so much the problem. hierarchy and capitalism -- systems of domination and control, and the aggregation of wealth -- are the problem.

A question for you did you consider Jon Stewart's bit on Jewish accountants in Iraq as anti-semetic, or does it just qualify him as a self-hating jew?

i don't mind when a jew makes a crack about jews. it's no different from blacks calling each other "nigga." we know it's a joke, because we know the stereotypes are false, thus we can take it in stride. when a non-jew does it, it's not coming from a place of knowing -- from inside. it comes from a place of ignorance -- from outside. you wouldn't call you black friend your "nigga," would you?

So are you saying is that only Jews understand Jewish stereotypes. Is your claim that others don't understand Jewish stereotypes and are therefore ignorant, or since your not sure if they understand the stereotype they are by default guilty of anti-semitism. How sad.

As I have stated and repeated my satire wasn't based on the Jewish stereotype having to do with money, but rather on the fact that asking for money back on smart bombs was a way of not taking responsibility for their excesses. But there are those overly sensitive few who read an afront into everything. They would better off in my estimation in giving the benefit of the doubt rather than making charges founded not on facts but on their own insecurity.

mobius you use the words "wade into antisemitic territory more often than is healthy or wise" What the hell does that mean, does wading into anti-semetic territory make one an anti-semite. I'd like you to explain exactly what is meant by that and the ramifications. If all you mean is that I'm not sensitive enough then simply say I'm insensitive. There is no reason to use the term anti-semitism at all. I think it is your pathetic attempt to place guilt by association. He wades in anti-semetic waters, you can't trust someone who wades in such waters. And why do you use the the words "more often than is healthy and wise" is that some sort of veiled threat. It certainly sounds like one. In what way is it unhealthy in what way is it not wise?

Hi Norm, you raised a good point.

It's quite clear cut actually. Your critics want to censor your comments as long as it's against Israel.

Then they can continue to promote the MYTH that terrorism is only done by Arabs and Islamic fundamentalists, which is actually a vicious cycle started by the Jews in Israel/Palestine who pioneered the use of terrorism in the Middle East.

They are against all postings, not just Norm's, which comdemn Israeli terrorism and rogue state atrocities, which are in line with the condemnation of the 22 United Nations Resolutions fir Israel's rogue state terrorism, 7 more than the 15 received by Saddam's Iraq.

So don't worry, Norm, world opinion is on your side.

The best such rapid anti-Palestineans can do is to call you anti-Semites to vilify our right to free speech.

The moral imperative is also on your side.

Israel and its supported CANNOT CONDEMN Arab resistance to Israeli military attacks, invasions and occupations AS LONG AS ISRAEL PIONEERS AND KEEPS USING terrorist methods and indiscriminate military force against Arab civilians to take their lands and lives, destroy their homes and drive millions to refugeehood.

Israel has no moral right to punish Arab resistance to Israeli war crimes and atrocities AS LONG AS ISRAEL IS NOT PUNSHISHED for starting the use of terrorist tactics to kill inoocent civilains since 1940s such as the Jewish bombing of King David Hotel in 1946 which killed 92 people, which easily outnumbers the failities in any case of suicide bombing by the Arabs.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,251-2277717,00.html

Kindly note that Israel has also illegally detained and arrested Arabs with assasinating resistance leaders with regards to the decades-long Israeli invasion of Lebanon.

Shouldn't the pro-Israeli / anti-Palestinian crowd address this as well?

Trying to appear moral by condemning civilian casualties in general while avoiding the issue of dealing EQUAL punishment to all parties in this conflict is really BS.

Are some people trying to appear objective and fair while avoiding DISCUSSING the punishment that Israel deserves for all its military aggression, conflicts and land grabs in the Middle East for the last 50 years.

So far Israel has escaped sanctions with the US veto and is rewarded with US$4 billion in aid from US every year, which is higher than any humanitarian aid given to any one country in the world today.

The jews in Israel have deprived the Arab indigenous majority from the right of ownership and self-determination on their ancestral lands.

It is truly sad to see this inhumanity extended to coercing people who speak up against Israel's terrorism and rogue state atrocities, which are also reviled and condemned by the United Nations and its democractic-humanitarian Charter.

Are people who speak up against Israel simply anti-semites? Or merely pro-Justice?

TYPO: Kindly note that Israel has also illegally detained and arrested Arabs WHILE assasinating ARAB resistance leaders along with the civilains nearby with rocket attacks, with regards to the decades-long Israeli invasion of Lebanon.

Shouldn't the pro-Israeli / anti-Palestinian crowd address this as well?

I love how people are posting things like "Complain about Israel = You support Hizbollah".

This is so far from the truth and a bit of a strawman tbh.

There is no good guy in this incident.

"there seems to be an absence of links reporting on israeli vicitms," - 3cheers4.

Currently body count is running at over 10:1 deaths (1 Israeli dead = over 10 Lebonese dead).

So if your upset that the Israeli point isn't being shown in the media more prehaps IDF should stop killing so many people so people take notice.

[Editors note this is the last comment you'll see from this person. ]

So are you saying is that only Jews understand Jewish stereotypes. Is your claim that others don't understand Jewish stereotypes and are therefore ignorant, or since your not sure if they understand the stereotype they are by default guilty of anti-semitism. How sad.

no, now i'm just saying you're an asshole. especially if you don't get this basic point.

go up to a black person and make a joke about fried chicken. see where it gets you.

I'd like you to explain exactly what is meant by that and the ramifications.

you repeat antisemitic charges unaware of your doing so. the ramifications are that people will think you're an antisemite.

I think it is your pathetic attempt to place guilt by association.

i think this is your pathetic attempt at, again, refusing to examine your remarks and see them for what they are.

And why do you use the the words "more often than is healthy and wise" is that some sort of veiled threat. It certainly sounds like one. In what way is it unhealthy in what way is it not wise?

unhealthy -- because it makes you sound like a crazy asshole. unwise -- because it casts doubt on the legitimacy of anything else you have to say.

you think i'm threatening you? that's cute.

seriously norm... you're a tool.

hey kes -- am yisrael chai motherfucker.

So, 3cheers4, are we now saying that calling Israel's actions shameful is support of Hezbollah and Hamas? And protesting Israel's actions makes a rationale for terror?>>

robin, that's not my meaning. i too am critical of israel's actions, as are many israelis. of course, israelis are free to criticize their gov't without fear of beheading (unlike their neighbors), but that's besides the point.

as i've tried to explain above, i believe that this site's lopsided account of the mideast crisis (see my account of july's headlines) does not provide a counterbalance to the mainstream media; rather, it just provides a different kind of imbalance.

it provides a tunnel-vision into the mideast, and ignores the role of other countries, organizations, and erstwhile thugocracies. this site offers no systemic insight.

i also believe that solely criticizing the state of israel while remaining seemingly, eerily silent about religiously fueled, wealthy, aid-pilfering terror groups is a tacit endorsement of their efforts. norm has disagreed with this, as i'm sure you do.

i also believe that solely criticizing the state of israel while remaining seemingly, eerily silent about religiously fueled, wealthy, aid-pilfering terror groups is a tacit endorsement of their efforts. norm has disagreed with this, as i'm sure you do.

That is not accurate. Your loaded language aside. I think it would be easy to demonstrate that in the comments to the posts I've criticized tactics that have been used by Hezbollah, and Hamas more often than you have you have criticized Israel. Should your lack of balance be taken as tacit approval of all that Israel does. It sounds like you're applying a double standard.

well, i don't accept the dismissal of my perspective as a double standard. although, that was a clever use of the "back door" to distract attention away from my point.

thank you anyway for pointing out that you also criticize tactics used by hamas and hezbollah (and perhaps, iran & syria?). i will look out for it.

when i see it, i will be more inclined to join you in cringing at israel's actions, and less inclined to perceive this site as reductionistic.

honestly, i don't know what the israeli defense force is thinking. (there are so many other ways to deal with the trash that lebanon is too weak to take out.) but i do know that israel is part of a larger system in the mideast with very complex variables.

Are you adminishing Norm that he won't be popular if he doesn't take your advice? He has alread said before that he could care less how popular he is. He has a life. This is his hobby.

Are you questioning how genuine he his being?

What is it that you are questioning? I don't get it.

Not only that, but fer crissakes! by now it must be perfectly obvious what Norm's opinion on all of this is.

Stop the madness.

On Israel, it seems that many critical-thinkers begin to think from the gut. They perceive a victim/oppressor dialectic (despite a far more nuanced situation), they see Zionism as imperialistic and racist (even though supporting a home for the Jewish people does not preclude multilateralism, tolerance, and ongoing reconciliation), and they see Jewish people who support the existence of Israel in the US as a kind of malicious 5th Column without making an effort to understand the diversity, history, and genuine motivations of Jewish communities.

There have been strong reactions against many points in this conversation (such as Mobius1's) because, in my view and the view of many moderates-including Kofi Annan who is often critical of Israel- the wrathful and irrational demonization (Oxford Dict:"portrayal as wicked and threatening") of Israelis and Jewish people who associate with it are manifestations of much older misconceptions.

I don't object to the harsh criticisms of Israeli policy, and I agree that the attacks are disproportionate. I have, to my continuing terror, a good friend in Beirut and another in Haifa right now. I worry for the safety of my Lebanese friend significantly more. Because the danger is unarguably disproportionate. So I agree that the Israeli response is a mistake. But putting things into perspective, I think it's worth noting that the present atrocities in Zimbabwe have escaped most people's notice, while many remain disproportionately fixated on conflict in the Middle East.

I've observed demonization in this conversation-- insinuations that Israelis are bloodthirsty, vicious, inhuman, and act as a racist collective, rather than humans with behaviors that are affected by complex systems (see the "Fundamental Attribution Error"). It is inconsistent (at best) to view the Arab account as nuanced but the Israeli account as monolithic.

I think one reason that many people have been trying to persuade Norm to be less hateful is that he otherwise runs a really peerless and engaging progressive weblog. But despite my best efforts to interpret these views on the tragedies in Lebanon/Israel as fair, I keep observing a habitual return to a number of underlying assumptions: that Israel represents racism and ethnocentrism, that Zionists have ambitions beyond self-determination for the Jewish people, that Israel is not interested in peace, and that for unarticulated reasons Israel deserves more scrutiny than other nations with worse human rights records.

Wanted to add: Despite my point trying to provide some context for some of the anger in some above posts, I was absolutely not justifying the use of bad language and insults which are counterproductive and detract from what's important.

I keep observing a habitual return to a number of underlying assumptions: that Israel represents and ethnocentrism, that Zionists have ambitions beyond self-determination for the Jewish people, that Israel is not interested in peace, and that for unarticulated reasons Israel deserves more scrutiny than other nations with worse human rights records.

That you presume to know what my underlying assumptions are is absurd. I agree that Israel has a right to exist, that it is not interested in conquest, other than that motivated by what I consider a national paranoia on their part. Let me amend that to note that there is a small group of Israelis who do actually have conquest in mind. I have a basic grasp of the history and would probably share the paranoia had I grown up in Israel. But like the U.S. who has grossly over-reacted to perceived threats in Iraq I view Israel's reactions in the region in a similar way. The threats to Israel are real. There are many in the Arab world that would like to see them destroyed. But the reality is that those that have that view don't have the means to carry it out. Israel acts in a way that presumes that they do, and so in my opinion overreacts. You point to a habitual return to the topic. Look what's in the news. Israel is in Gaza, Israel is in Lebanon, the United States is joined at the hip with Israel. We spend billions supporting Israel, so you get a lot of posts about Israel. What a big fucking surprise. It's anti-semitism if I criticize Israel for things I don't or wouldn't criticze others for right? And it is not a matter of some balance. Israel has been disproportionately in the news so they get the attention. When the hot story is Iraq they get a disporportionate share of the attention. Don't equate harsh criticism with hate just because you think only Israeli's should be able to criticize. If you would like to point to some specific statements I've made that you consider anti-semetic do it. If you would like to point to where I've written that Israel is not interested in peace I would welcome the evidence. If you would like to offer an example of where I've 'demonized' Israel in a way that I haven't 'demonized' the United States get it on. But don't trot out it's worth noting that there are atrocities in Zimbabwe as if that's evidence of a lack of balance, as if that is specific to me. Supporters of Israel have gone to great lengths to define what is acceptable to criticize and what is not. If you move outside their closely defined limits, out come the charges of anti-semitism. I think Israel and its supporters do themselves a great dis-service when rather than discuss the issues in a rational way they play the victim card. I simply don't buy the frame. A view that will continue to make me a target for being labeled as part of the hate Israel crowd. I think my views are basically shared by what you would call very liberal Israelis sans the religion.

Thanks for the addition. I didn't see that before I posted my comment. I would be interested in your take on Mort Zuckerman's comments in the video I posted yesterday, and his use of the word we.

Norm, that was really well put. In fact, I think "national paranoia" in Israel and the US (and also in Europe these days) is an interesting and astute way to interpret military and political reactions against the Arab world.

I didn't use the word anti-semitism in my comment because I wasn't making that accusation. The strongest word I really used was hateful, and what I mean by that was, a kind of out of control, non-construtive anger. It certainly wasn't a character judgement. Nor do I, personally, play the anti-semitism card in my recent posts here. Rather, I have wanted to point out that a few of your comments have gone beyond the harsh criticism with which I wholeheartedly agree.

Mostly these comments involve you either calling the state of Israel racist (a few months back), entertaining the possibility that Israel might actually want casualties among the Lebanese civilians/UN workers (rather than just citing negligence - see your post on UN bombing), or taking an isolated incident and applying it to Israel in general out of context (as with the photos of kids writing on shells proving that their is a 'teaching of hate' going on rather than the usual ra ra support the troops bullshit we see in most countries with militaries).

So what I'm observing is not anti-semitism, but rather some dips into a realm of hostility which makes even a secular-humanistic, multiethnic Jew like me a little spooked. Perhaps that's because, with all of the media and political attention on Israel and subsequent association with Jewish people, there actually has been a significant rise in real anti-semitism throughout the world.

Just the other day in the Times I was reading that a large number of academics, to say nothing of ordinary citizens, in the Arab world believe in the Blood Libel and in the authenticity of the Protocols of the Elders of Zion. That is scary, man. So that's the context I'm operating in.

Thanks for being specific. Let me address your examples. First racism. It is difficult are jews a race? The context was that Israel treats those with jewish heritage differently when it comes to for instance immigration. It is clearly discrimination based on what, I don't know ethnicity, race? What is the difference between ethnicity and race? Race is one component of ethnicity. I believe it was if your mother was jewish you got the preferential treatment. Is Israel a Jewish State?

I don't believe I ever said I thought the U.N. bombing was intentional what I said was that I understood how some could make that claim.
The analogy I use was of a drunk who when he causes collateral damage says well hey shit happens. I believe I characterized it as reckless. If you like to point to where I used the word intentional to express my view, please do, and btw the pick your adjective phrase was offering different possible views not agreeing with all those possibilities. Finally as to the context of the photo. I think I noted in the comments that I found similar photos of palestinian or other arab children doing similar things equally disgusting. The reason it was newsworthy was that it was something I hadn't seen from Israel before. I was also disturbed by the fact that some of the writing was in english that's not nationalism that's attempted pr gone terribly wrong. It was calculated, it backfired. It's true you didn't call me anti-semetic nor did you challenge those that did that I recall.

Race is a social construct that doesn't actually exist except in identity-politics. The real term to use is ethnicity-- it is more accurate on a variety of levels. People's problems with the concept of a "Jewish State" stem from a fundamental misunderstanding of what it means to be Jewish. Being Jewish is much like being Armenian- a mixture of heritage, nation, culture, and religion. The matriarchical lineage is the main measure of heritage from an orthodox standpoint, but if one looks at the immigration of the Ethiopian Jews to Israel over the last few decades, cultural practice and identification with the Jewish people has been enough to qualify them for citizenship.

Israel is a Jewish state in the sense that it serves as a refuge for Jews as an ethnic group. The nation of Armenia, similarly, has a constitutional clause that says: "Individuals of Armenian origin shall acquire citizenship of the Republic of Armenia through a simplified procedure." Is that discrimination? Bulgaria, Germany, Greece, India, and many other nations have special citizenship tracks for people of their ethnic origin. This is not discrimination, it is an acknowledgement that people still have ties to their cultural home, and deserve a haven there. When the world is a more safe, comfortable, and pluralistic place, hopefully Right of Return won't be necessary anymore.

And as you know, there is no state religion and many non-Jews are citizens. But Right of Return is firmly defined in the UN Declaration of Fundamental Human Rights.

Let me add, by the way, that the Palestinian refugees deserve Right of Return and self-determination as much as Jews do, which is why I advocate Palestinian empowerment and very serious reconciliation on the part of Israel.

And I feel that my saying that I don't believe you are anti-semitic is enough of a challenge to those that have made an accusation. I didn't want to give credence to their personal attacks, in general. However I do want to persuade you to rethink your idea of who Jews are, because I don't understand your criticism of Israel's immigration policy in comparison to the rest of the world. After all, it would be a bitch for me to get a citizenship in an Arab country, but one of my American born friends with a Saudi background could probably manage it better.

One more interesting thing: I would love to see, in the future, a better alternative to national self-determination as a way to protect ethnic groups. As we've seen, self-determination in the form of a nation has led to conflict and hypocrisy all over the place-- the Balkans, for example, not to mention the Middle East. However, other protective mechanisms were harder to enact or even conceive of post-WWII when the UN was in its infancy.

Back then, the State was prime. These days, however, self-determination could be found from within a more heterogenous country via the consolidation of economic, social, and political capital. So while we can't take back the nation-states made in the name of self-determination, the world has learned much about the unacceptable trade-offs nationhood often presents.

Point taken on who the Jews are though I must say I don't like that type of discrimination whoever is practicing it. On a national level it comes down to who has the political power within a country.