Ah, yes. Collective punishment against civilians.

This whole Zionist thing is so transparent. The world would be so much better off without Israel, especially the US. Better off financially, morally, in terms of security... you name it.

There's a reason that Israel and rabid right-wing conservatives get along so well... two peas in a pod. Same view of the rights of the powerless. Same view of military invasion... etc, etc, etc.

Sorry, but isn't John Edwards one of the mega-rich? I mean, he's selling his Georgetown house for $6.5 million, moved to Chapel Hill, NC, bought 100 acres for $1.14 million, and is building a 10,000+ square foot white elephant of a house for $1.24 million.

http://gis.co.orange.nc.us/land/queries/Building.asp?PIN=9768257495

http://gis.co.orange.nc.us/land/queries/account.asp?PIN=9768257495

He talks big about ending poverty, but is that how he lives his life? I'm sure all the poor in America will be comforted that their savior is comfy in his new mansion.

PS- I'm a registered Independent who has never voted Republican. I wish John Edwards wasn't just another hypocrite politician, but I think he is.

Knocking out power is a recommended tactic during a military operation. It causes confusion for the enemy. I'm not taking sides here, just offering an explanation as to why this was done.

hmmm, how is knocking out bridges not also collective punishmentas well?

Israel is an apartheid racist state, I have seen it with my own eyes, and I am proud to be a jew for a free palestine

It is, but at least with the bridges there is some rationale. Blowing up power stations, risking leaving people without water is unconscionable.

"Knocking out power is a recommended tactic during a military operation"

That's like saying cracking open someone's chest is a recommended tactic during surgery. Without proportionality, anything is permissible in response to the slightest offense. This is one soldier who was kidnapped. Militant groups have routinely given back hostages in trades for Palestinians that the Israelis have. I not in principle against Israel going into areas from which they are being attacked, but this is totally disproportionate and a massive escalation.

This has a lot more to do with Israeli politics than it does with military objectives. The collective punishment doesn't humble the Palestinians or make them any less willing to fight. It just satisfies a certain strain of Israeli thinking that expected total peace and quiet in the aftermath of the Gaza withdrawl.

Sorry, but isn't John Edwards one of the mega-rich? I mean, he's selling his Georgetown house for $6.5 million, moved to Chapel Hill, NC, bought 100 acres for $1.14 million, and is building a 10,000+ square foot white elephant of a house for $1.24 million. http://gis.co.orange.nc.us/land/queries/Building.asp?PIN=9768257495 http://gis.co.orange.nc.us/land/queries/account.asp?PIN=9768257495 He talks big about ending poverty, but is that how he lives his life? I'm sure all the poor in America will be comforted that their savior is comfy in his new mansion. PS- I'm a registered Independent who has never voted Republican. I wish John Edwards wasn't just another hypocrite politician, but I think he is.

This is an absurd argument I read consistently by bloggers who don't even know the man or have not met him. I saw him yesterday. I'm just an average blogger, and he took the time to see me on his busy schedule yesterday; I am solidly middle class. He was wearing a modest t-shirt and a pair of jeans.

Let's state the facts: 1) John Edwards made a good living as a trial lawyer who helped those needy families get some justice in the form of judgements of money from companies or doctors who knew better about their products or procedures, yet continued to have bad practices. Yes, he made a fortune, but he took all of the risks, meaning the families didn't pay a dime up front, and if his firm lost, they incurred all of the costs.

2)Edwards grew up in modest means. He worked his way through school, went to public universities for undergrad and grad degrees. His 2 youngest children go to public schools in Chapel Hill.

3) Warren Buffett, who many times over is a billionaire compared to Edwards, is going to be one of the best philanthropists. It means he understands poor people and their needs. Edwards is doing the same, except he is getting involved with trying to find solutions from many places, not just the government, although the government certainly could do better in giving a hand up and quit profiting corporations who are jacking up gas prices, laying off people, etc.

4) If one lifts up the poor people towards a middle class, it will rebuild it to be a better society. I see Edwards vision as a positive for wanting a working society whereby people can save and gain respect for each other. The middle class is eroding because of #3 problems caused by the government. Edwards wants all of us to do better, not just himself, and he knows the poor cannot do it alone.

5) Perhaps the blogger missed it when GW Bush was out on the road last year trying to sell Social Security down the river (thankfully, it died) and a woman remarked she had kids and worked 3 jobs. GWB's reply: "that's good." Yeah, right. And she doesn't have health care and prays she's doesn't get sick.

6) Edwards raised $300K for high school seniors in Greene County, NC, the poorest county in the state, for them to attend college their first, and promises to do more if they work 10 a week and keep their grades up. His own work ethic growing up is a great example.

9)It gets old when someone doesn't think Edwards understands the issue of poverty, yet s/he doesn't notice that he raised money for 700 college students to be housed near NOLA for an alternative spring break, and was working himself along with them to clean up the massive debris that our government contractors via FEMA didn't even touch.

Who cares if he has a couple of big houses on the market? What matters is that he cares about people, which is more than I can say for the Current administration.

'Nuff said about his wealth. He has said many times he has been blessed.

Personally, I think knocking out electricity to long suffering Gazans is an over-reaction and dumb. But honestly, the Palestinians are their own worst enemy. Time and again, when Palestinians attack soldiers or civilians in Israel proper, the Israeli army lashes out. The Palestinian leadership clearly knows this, or they've got Alzheimer's. Palestinians attacks are designed for one purpose, to elicit a response so that Palestinians can gain some PR points. This is pretty evident.

And once again, the focus is off the Palestinians who DUG A TUNNEL into Israel to kidnap and kill Israelis who posed no threat to them, and has now shifted to the "poor Palestinians" being attacked by the "evil IDF." Now tell me again that the media is pro-Israel, please, please. (Kes, i'm waiting...)

Israel pulled out of Gaza (thankfully) despite its fears that Palestinians would use the strip as a launching ground for attacks against Israel. Surprise, surprise, look what's happened.

I'm all for Israel pulling out of the 1967 occupied territories, but really, the Palestinian leadership is idiotic beyond belief and pays a huge disservice to the people it supposedly represents. Abbas is the only one who has any common sense.

Don't know how to do the fancy quote here...

"Who cares if he has a couple of big houses on the market? What matters is that he cares about people, which is more than I can say for the Current administration.

'Nuff said about his wealth. He has said many times he has been blessed."

I guess my problem is the "conspicuous consumption" aspect, it's offensive to me to hear him talk about poverty on the one hand, and for him to live like royalty himself. If you don't think that the hoarding of wealth affects the poor, then I want what you're smoking. I've seen the house he's building, and the place looks like a strip mall. It is huge. It has an indoor basketball court for god's sake. I'm not saying he's a bad guy, I know he does good things, I even voted for him for the senate, but I have trouble reconciling what he says with what I see. Now if he turns his new compound into a youth retreat or something...

Does anyone know what he gives to charity?

"And once again, the focus is off the Palestinians who DUG A TUNNEL into Israel to kidnap and kill Israelis who posed no threat to them..."

Israel had been shelling Gaza for a while leading up to this. The particular tank outpost that the soldier was taken from was even involved in this shelling. The attack was legal according to all relevant international law, so this is not a "kidnapping," it is the taking of a prisoner of war. If Canada all of a sudden start shelling Montana, the US would be quite in the right to invade to put a stop to it, especially if the US had at the time unilaterally declared a ceasefire which it was holding itself to. Unlike the US and its massive war machine, the Palestinians don't even have enough rifles to go around, so of course they can't put a stop to Israeli shelling, but they're still entitled to attack sites inside Israel in response.

Now, the group holding him has offered to release him in exchange for a bunch of women and children civilian Palestinian prisoners being held by Israel. Not knowing the names and details behind each and every one of those prisoners, you could perhaps claim Israel has valid reasons for holding some of them and I'd believe you, but all of them? Israel won't even release one in trade?

Oh well. Better to take out a few power plants instead. It's good to know that Israel only attacks military targets even as the Palestinians exclusively attack civilian targets.

"Time and again, when Palestinians attack soldiers or civilians in Israel proper, the Israeli army lashes out."

That argument also demonstrates that Ariel Sharon is responsible for 3000 or so deaths on 9/11/2001. Do you accept that, too?

Huh?

Best that Zionists can come up with?

Ed, what connection are you making about Ariel Sharon and 9/11?

As for "Israel has been shelling Gaza for a while leading up to this", uh, you've got that wrong. Aside from the tragic shelling of that family on a beach in Gaza (which by the way there is no definitive proof that it came from Israel), it is the Gazans who are shelling Israel.

Case in point:

"Last weekend, this small Israeli town [Sderot] close to the Gaza border was pounded by more than 50 Qassams - a crude home-made rocket - severely injuring a 61-year-old school caretaker.

The step-up in attacks came after the militant group Hamas broke its 16-month ceasefire after accusing Israeli forces of firing a shell onto a beach that killed eight Palestinian civilians."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5083434.stm in case you'd like to read something other than the Hamas Post.

Hi Zak, lying again.

The Israeli account of that shelling is taken seriously by the neutral non-international observers.

The violence between Israeli and Hamas started because of Palestinian casualties at the hands of Israel in the last 2 weeks.

Even an Israel spokemans said that Hmas "home-make" rockets are inaccurate and ineffective. How does such attacks warrant another invasion and occupation of Gaza strip?

Israel violated the ceasefire instituated by Hamas for more than a year and is finally showing the world why the Palestinians are willing to die fighting to purge their ancestral lands of these Jewish immigrants from Europe who had no ancestral ties to the region of Palestine.

Zak get real. You always conveniently forget that israel is the one who start this vicious cycle of violence.

The Israelis were the ones who started public bombings, rocket,. artillery and bulldozer attacks against Palestinians settlements.

And when these palestinians fight back with home-make bombs and human bombs because Israel denied them the right to swet up a viable Arab state with a conventional military, Israel cry foul?

Zak, you are just full opf bullshit.

History and the United Nationas documents supports the historical and soveriegn claims of the Palestionians, not the Israelis. These are not influenced by Hamas because they record things that actually happened.

Kes,

re: your absurd and illiterate comment "history and the United Nationas [sic] supports the historical and soveriegn [sic!] claims of the Palestinionians [sic], not the Israelis" ...

Kes, the United Nations CREATED Israel. Look it up. The UN also created a state for the Palestinians, but their 'brothers' f*cked it up and lost it all for them.

I don't know what you're smoking over there, Kes, but it must be sweet. Israel invaded because Hamas (the same people who have been elected to lead the Palestinians (over a cliff?), dug a friggin tunnel into Israel, killed two soldiers and kidnapped another. THAT is why Israel is back in that hell hole of Gaza. Continue with your loopiness, but as long as Palestinian leadership continues with their kidnappings and suicide bombings, Israel is going to beat them down and people are going to get killed. I think Israel's actions are overdone, but I'm not the one with the big army. Israel is. To paraphrase that line from The Untouchables: they pull a knife, you pull a gun. He sends one of yours to the hospital, you send one of his to the morgue. That's the Middle Eastern way. Sad but true.

Renounce violence and Palestinians will have a state within a year. You can bet on that. Until then, a lot of innocent people on both sides will die senselessly.

Zak, How much is Israel paying you to sprout nonsense like this?

"The step-up in attacks came after the militant group Hamas broke its 16-month ceasefire after accusing Israeli forces of firing a shell onto a beach that killed eight Palestinian civilians."

This pro-Israeli defense has been exposed for the lie it is.

As in the case of its claims that it did not level the Palestinian town of Jenin 2 years back with the Arab citizens inside Jenin? Funny why Israel refuses to let United Nation observers into Jenin.

Obviously they must think that the United Nations is on the payroll of Hamas and read Hamas posts as Zak claims that all Israeli critics do?

Get real. Jenin is a Palestinian town that no longer exists just like Sabra and Chatilan that has been wiped out by Israeli forces DURING A CEASEFIRE.

Just what type of sick person would defend Zionists Jews for their atrocities? Is it because of a belief in biblical prophecies that Israel must rise before Jesus returns?

If millions of innocent Arabs have to either lose their homes, their lives, their right to self-determination, I rather Jesus did not return because he obviously does not love Non-Jews people at all as his actions when he was alive showed..

Israel is guilty of killing the civilians on the beach because of a few things.

1] An international Western organisation had one of its bomb experts who examined the scene and stated that the wounds were cased by shrapnel of a shell hitting a beach, not the explosion of a buried shell as Israel claims.

Human Rights Watch researchers have visited the site to examine the fatal crater and have interviewed victims, witnesses, security and medical staff.

“There has been much speculation about the cause of the beach killings, but the evidence we have gathered strongly suggests Israeli artillery fire was to blame,” said Sarah Leah Whitson, director of the Middle East and Africa division at Human Rights Watch. “It is crucial that an independent investigative team, with the necessary expertise, verify the facts in a transparent manner.”

http://onegoodmove.org/1gm/1gmarchive/2006/06/linkswithyour_330.html#comments

2] There is 1 artillery shell missing from Israel’s bombardment that day and the Israeli Army has stated that they cannot account for it.

3] The Israeli time difference defence is debunked by the fact that no one will go to beach during and after a shelling. The Israeli shelling of the beach obviously occurred when the people were already on the beach.

“Evidence from hospital records, doctors' testimony and witness accounts challenges the central assertion that the shelling had stopped by the time seven members of the Ghalia family were killed.”

http://onegoodmove.org/1gm/1gmarchive/2006/06/linkswithyour_334.html#comments

Zak, stop lying. And before you claim I am a Hamas lover, kindly note that I am a Chinese in Asia who is not a Muslim, Christian or Jew and I have no Arab friends but I have an Israeli cousin-in-law.

You have no grounds to accuse me of any Hamas bias.

Zak, you lied again.

You obviously have not read the United Nations documents and the international documents on the Palestinian issue from 1917-1940s

UN proposed a creation of the 2 states and Jerusalem to be internationalised but UN never had the chance to submit this plan to the Arabs for their consent as the local indigenous population in Palestine.

However, Israel invaded Palestine and announced its statehood without giving the Arabs any chance to respond to the plan.

United Nation sources: http://www.un.org/Depts/dpa/ngo/history.html

United Nations needed to consult the local Arab majority and get their consent because this is the UN charter.

"Arab rejection was...based on the fact that, while the population of the Jewish state was to be [only half] Jewish with the Jews owning less than 10% of the Jewish state land area, the Jews were to be established as the ruling body - a settlement which no self-respecting people would accept without protest, to say the least...The action of the United Nations conflicted with the basic principles for which the world organization was established, namely, to uphold the right of all peoples to self-determination. By denying the Palestine Arabs, who formed the two-thirds majority of the country, the right to decide for themselves, the United Nations had violated its own charter." Sami Hadawi, "Bitter Harvest."

=========

The United Nations had to seek the approval of the Middle East countries and the Arabs who were the indegenous majority population in the region of Palestine.

This was the basis of the Balfour Declaration in November 1917, as well as the Anglo French Declaration of 1918 promising the Arabs of the former Ottoman colonies that as a reward for supporting the Allies they could have their independence

"His Majesty's Government view with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, and will use their best endeavours to facilitate the achievement of this object, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BalfourDeclarationof_1917

Key qualifier in the Balfour Declaration:

“nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country."”

This was supported by the 1919, the American King-Crane Commission, which spent six weeks in Syria and Palestine, interviewing delegations and reading petitions. Their report stated, "The commissioners began their study of Zionism with minds predisposed in its favor...The fact came out repeatedly in the Commission's conferences with Jewish representatives that the Zionists looked forward to a practically complete dispossession of the present non-Jewish inhabitants of Palestine, by various forms of purchase... "If [the] principle [of self-determination] is to rule, and so the wishes of Palestine's population are to be decisive as to what is to be done with Palestine, then it is to be remembered that the non-Jewish population of Palestine - nearly nine-tenths of the whole - are emphatically against the entire Zionist program.. To subject a people so minded to unlimited Jewish immigration, and to steady financial and social pressure to surrender the land, would be a gross violation of the principle just quoted...No British officers, consulted by the Commissioners, believed that the Zionist program could be carried out except by force of arms.The officers generally thought that a force of not less than fifty thousand soldiers would be required even to initiate the program. That of itself is evidence of a strong sense of the injustice of the Zionist program...The initial claim, often submitted by Zionist representatives, that they have a 'right' to Palestine based on occupation of two thousand years ago, can barely be seriously considered." Quoted in "The Israel-Arab Reader" ed. Laquer and Rubin.

Israel is the one who commits violence FIRST against the Arab Plaestinians and expects the Arabs not to fight back? That is funny.

Zak claims that the Arab palestinias should renounce violence and they will have a state within a year.

Bullshit, Zak.

Israel rejects the rights of millions of Arab palestinians that were driven out of Palestine since the 1940s to return to their Arab ancestral lands in Palestine, which has been sezied by Jewish settlers.

These millions still live in refugee camps.

Israel wants to give the Arabs a state that is not viable with its settlements, wall cutting into Arab lands which become disconnected pieces of land. No viable Palestinian state or economy can be grown from this.

The Israelis clearly want the Arab palestinians to live in ghettos, rather than a real state.

By the way, Zak, in 2010, the Arabs living in Israel will become the majority population again, thanks to their prolific birth rates.

The Arabs will once again have their own state, as GOD and nature intended.

Your offer is rejected for the rubbish it is.

Zak's so called case in point need to be qualieid as an Israeli spokesman had stated clearly that Hama's home-made rockets are gennerally ineffective and inaccurate, which makes Israeli's rocket and artilelry attacks clearly excessive to the point of being barbaric.

Check out the news feed here:

http://onegoodmove.org/1gm/1gmarchive/2006/06/linkswithyour_330.html#comments

Kes, keep on trucking. You're mad.

I'm not going to spend my day doing a point-by-point rejection of your loopy logic. I'll just comment on one of your fallacies, namely that somehow the Palestinians got a raw deal in 1948 because Israel got "half" the land.

Kes, take out your atlas and look at what Israel got. 80% of what Israel got was uninhabited Negev desert. What a prize.

"The Arabs will once again have their own state, as GOD and nature intended.'

Boy, and you call Zionists racist.

The Arabs already have 21 states of their own. Soon they'll have one more. And I'm sure it'll be another beacon of democracy and tolerance, just like the rest.

http://www.amnestyusa.org/news/document.do?id=ENGMDE150492006

Hamas Post. That's an interesting name for Amnesty International. I hadn't heard that one before.

Amnesty International is the first internal organisation to condemn US for human rights abuses in Abu Gharib and Guatanamo.

Does that make it Hamas post as well??????

Zak, I'm not mad or trucking as your accusations claim.

All I did is to show that the UN records and historians prove my case.

I'm sorry if the reality and facts prove that your pro-Israel stand is baseless and misleading.

Israel has no case for statehood based on terrirotial and military aggression, land grabs and occupation without the consent of the local indigenous Arab majority living in the region of Palestine.

And you can't do a point-by-point rejection of my stands which is based on history and UN records.

By the way where is it written that Israel gets half the land?

Israel occupied Jerusalem which was to be internationalised, not to occuped by the Jews as the Israelis did.

You have not refuted any of the proof that I have presented here.

And you can't.

Unless you do so, you are the one with the loopy logic, false assumptions and lies.

And I will correct you everytime with facts and history as an neutral observer with nothing to gain.

My credentials for objectivity is a lot stronger than you are as I stated earlier.

======

Why do you call me racsist for saying that the Arab Palestinians will have their own state?

When the state is on their own Arab ancestral lands where their ancestors have lived CONTINUOUSLY BEFORE AND AFTER THE JEWISH EXODUS for thousands of years.

The United States have 51 states compared to the Arab 21 states but no one call USA racist.

THE ONLY RACIST STATE IN THE WORLD TODAY IS ISRAEL which expelled millions of Arab palestinians from their ancestral lands in the region of Palestine and rejects the rights of these Arab palestinians to return.

So the fact is Israel is a rascist state.

And that its supporters are are equally racist.

Zak, you are not helping yourself here by making baseless accusations based on hot air.

But if your intention is to convince JUST yourself that your pro-Israel position is correct and realistic, then you have obviously succeeded.

Sorry for the typo: I meant:

Amnesty International is the first INTERNATIONAL organisation to condemn US for human rights abuses in Abu Gharib and Guatanamo.

Does that make it Hamas post as well??????

Astounding.

Zionists claim they have the moral authority to commit slow genocide... because the Palestinians don't passively let the Zionists commit genocide on them.

They proffer this with righteous fervor... if there ever was a corrupting influence on the very concept of morality, it's Zionism.

As I said before, the world would be better off without Israel, which has no right to exist because can only be rightly viewed as an invasion and occupation. Didn't have to be that way... don't think the United Nations envisioned it that way... but that's the way it is, and should be treated as thus.

Ahh! Rich! Morality defined by the hypocrites who defend the righteous culture that brought us suicide bombings, honour killings and cold-blooded murder of Jews, Copts, Kurds, Druze....

I'll take Zionist's imperfect democracy over thuggish Islamofascism any day.

And kes, what does Amnesty International have to say about those beacons of democracy in Syria, Saudi Arabia, Palestine, Sudan, Egypt, Iran, Iraq, Kuwait, Oman, Yemen, Libya, Algeria, Tunisia, Morocco, etc. etc. Are the Zionists responsible for those attrocities too?

Question for all you anti-Zionists: Can someone explain to me in an intelligent manner what all this "Israel doesn't have a right to exist" business?

Who exactly decides when a country does or does not have a right to exist? Does Canada? Or Quebec? Does North Korea? Or South Korea? Does San Marino? If there's a body that regulates such absurdities, I'd love to hear about it. Because it seems a "right to exist" means very much when one already exists.

I personally don't think a 22nd Arab country called Palestine should exist, especially when Jordan is de-facto 2/3 of Palestine anyway. But it seems to me, Palestinians already exist, so telling them they don't have a 'right' to exist is sort of a non-starter.

I'm sure kes will have something brilliantly retarded to say about this. If anyone else who actually has a brain wants to tackle this, let's hear it.

kes:

JORDAN occupied Jerusalem illegally for 19 years after 1948. The city that was supposed to be internationalized was occupied by Arabs. So it's interesting that you claim Israel is illegally occupying Jerusalem when it was the Arabs who took it over after 1948. The Jordanians occupied the West Bank too for 19 years, and the Egyptians occupied Gaza. Now find me where the Palestinians protested THIS illegal occupation. They did not. You know why? Because Arabs occupied these lands, not Jews. And when Arabs occupied these lands, Palestinian Arabs didn't mind.

You might want to read this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FaisalWeizmannAgreement ... you'll see that there was a time when Arab leadership was more than open to Zionism.

As for your the US has 51 states vs Arab 21... you really are dumb, my friend. If you can't even get simple facts straight, that the US has 50 states, not 51, and than US 'states' and Arab 'states' are not the same thing. US states are not national states, they are regional entities within a national state, the United States of America. Arab states are self-governing nations. The US has 1 seat at the UN. The Arabs have 21.

Nice try on equating my facetious remark about the Hamas Post with Amnesty International. I never made any such connection. I support AI. And if you do, I'm sure you also condemn all the racism and torture that goes on many times worse in Arab and Muslim countries vs what goes on in Israel. Women are beaten and murdered every day in Muslim countries because they dare to show more than their faces. Peoples' heads and hands and tongues are cut off in Muslim countries. So PLEASE dont throw AI at me. Israel and US commit terrible acts, to be sure. But if you want to compare their actions vs the barbarity in Islamic countries, bring it on.

Weighing through all of these issues, this is the best that I understand it.

Jews were discriminated against across the globe, which resulted in a population of people who ended up with no homeland.

After WWII, England and the United States and some other countries got together and decided that it would be a good idea to establish a homeland for the displaced Jews, in the territory which is now referred to as Palestine, the natives of said territory referred to as Arabs. The Jews were given some land which was not well tended.

Today, it is millions of Palestinians who are discriminated against and who were driven from their homeland, in order to make a homeland for the Jews who were discriminated against.

It seems that both the Jews and the Palestinians got the short end of the stick.

I don't understand these issues as well as Kes and Zakdegrassi do, though, so hopefully they will both help me to better understand the overall dynamic of this situation, this tragedy.

JoAnn, thanks for having an open mind. Even if I believe some of the things you've posted are factually incorrect, it's evident you have an open mind.

If you'd like to read some well presented information -- at least from the Zionist point of view -- check out http://www.zionism-israel.com/zionism_issues.htm ... i just found this website today. Of course it's pro-Israel, but i think it's fair.

Re: your comment about the US and Britain creating a home for displaced Jews after WWII, this is not correct. It's historic fact that the majority of nations at the UN voted to create a Jewish state in Palestine, along with a Palestinian Arab one. This was rejected by Arabs who chose to 'go for broke' and lost everything. They tried again in 1967 and 1973 and lost again. Britain incidently did not vote for the creation of a Jewish state.

In the final analysis, none of these issues really matter. Kes and I can harp on what X did to Y or A did to B. In the end, there are Jews there. There are Arabs there. Neither side will get everything it wants. The Arabs could agree tomorrow to 95% of the West Bank and Gaza and no 'right of return' for Palestinian Arabs into Israel, and they would have their state. I think most Palestinian Arabs would take this. I think President Abbas would take this. But Hamas and the Palestinians' corrupt leadership would rather 'go for broke' yet again. They would still rather hate the Jews than swallow their pride and take what they can get -- and then blame the Jews for their failure.

Zak, you are the idiot and the liar.

Here's the proof.

You forgot to mention Israel's public bombings, targeted assainsations. rocket/artillery bombings and cold-blooded murder of the Palestinians, while driving millions from their ancestral lands.

The Israelis were the ones who started terrorist acts in the Middle East, not the Palestinians who only retaliated to Israeli military aggrestion, territorial conquests of their lands and expulsion of millions of Arab Palestinians from their ancestral lands whose ancestors have lived there continuously BEFORE AND AFTER the Jewish Exodus into the Middle East.

Sorry, I have to keep reminding you but you seem to keep forgetiing.

THESE ARE THE FACTS. NEVER FORGET IT PLEASE.

And as long as Israel was the one who started acts of violence and continues to perpetuates it, it cannot cry foul or claim to be a victim.

FACT.

========

As for your point about Jordan's occupation of Jerusalem in 1948 which us now occupied by Israel, what's the issue here or the relevance to the Plaestinian issue.

Like it ot not, the Arabs of Jordan has more claims to Jerusalem in 1948 compared to the Jews in Israel, of which 80% were European immigrants who had never lived in the Middle East and many of which came by ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION

========

Sorry on the mistake of the number of states in US but it still illustrates my points.

Only a jackass can come up with the excuse that Arabs has 21 sgtates and should not begrudge the Jews setting their own states in Arab lands.

Sorry, man, based on this reasoning, no region will give the Jews any right to settle any land.

Where is your logic? The right of the local indegenous people to seek soveriegnty and self-dertermination on their lands are enshrined in the UN Charter.

Based on this, the indegenous Palestinian majority has the right to set up their state in the region of Palestine.

That is why UN recognise their inaleniable rights to self-determination and the right of millions of Arab refugees to return

By the way, no Arabs has any seat in the UN Security Council like US, which also has the vetoe that has been used to protect Israel from sanctions.

========

Let me define for you this following issue once and for all

Israel doesn't have a right to exist in region of Palestine BASED ON TERRITORIAL AGGRESSION, EXPULSION OF MILLIONS OF THE INDIGENOUS ARAB MAJORITY FROM THEIR ANCESTRAL LANDS, DESTRUCTION OF THE LIVES AND PROPERTIES OF THOUSANDS OF ARAB CIVILAINS, INCLANDESTINE DEVELOPMENT OF AN ILLEGAL NUCLEAR wmd PROGRAMME.

These are all rogue state behavior which warrants sanctions and even an invasion to set matters right.

How can Israelui Jews believe they have a right to set up a state on lands that they do not own in a region where they were largely foreign immigrants.

This is not just against universal immigration laws but violates the basic tenets of democracy and sovereignty i.e. the local indegenous majority has the right to self-determination on its own lands, which is the Arab palestinian majority on their ancestral lands where their ancestors had lived for thousands of years BEFORE AND AFTER the biblical Jewish Exodus.

Thuggish Islamofascism?

Spoken like a typical ungrateful Jew.

The Jews owe the Arabs a historical debt.

Islamic countries HELPED TO PROTECT the jews from Christian prosecution from the 8th century onwards during the Islamic Golden Age.

Prejudice against Jews in the Roman Empire was formalized in 438, when the Code of Theodosius II established Roman Catholic Christianity as the only legal religion in the Roman Empire. The Justinian Code a century later stripped Jews of many of their rights, and Church councils throughout the sixth and seventh century, including the Council of Orleans, further enforced anti-Jewish provisions.

Thousands of Jews fled to Islamic countries while the remaining converted.

What did the Jews do to repay this debt?

Oh, the Jews expelled millions of Arabs from palestine, killed thousands of civilains, wiped out hundreds of Arab villages.

The Arab and Muslim world owe Israel nothing.

Kes, you're really a buffoon.

You write: "The Israelis were the ones who started terrorist acts in the Middle East..."

WRONG. So wrong. All you need to do is wikipedia search "Great Uprising" ... it was the Arabs who began the bloodshed, not the Zionists, because the racist Arab Palestinians did not want Jews in 'their' land. Jews were not going around killing Arabs prior to 1948. Show me one instance of where that was the case. You can't. It did not happen.

And please, do not talk to me about the basic tenets of democracy and sovereignty, when Arab countries violate those 'tenets' 100fold over Israel every day. And didn't we already establish that your people in China violate the democratic and sovereignty rights of Tibet? So put some order in your own house before you start pointing the finger at others. Israel does not need to take lessons on democracy and human rights from China or Arab countries. What a joke.

"a typical ungrateful Jew" .... LOL... voila, the anti-semitism in unmasked....stupid racist

"the Jews expelled millions of Palestinians" ... REALLY?! "millions"?? There werent millions of Palestinians in 1948...so you're pulling your numbers out of your ass, like the rest of your vitriolic bs. again, your numbers are made up, as usual.

As for the Jews owing the Arabs anything, give me a break. whatever the Arabs "gave" the Jews 1500 years ago was more than made uup for by all the Arabs stole from Jews in Arab lands in the 1950s and 60s. When I get back everything the Arabs stole from my grandfather, your Palestinians can get whatever it is Jews stole from them.

In the last few posts, zak has used the word "Islamofascism" as though it means something, blamed Israel's firing of 6000 shells into Gaza on corporal punishment in Saudi Arabia, used the number of other Arabic-speaking countries in the world to justify disposession of the Palestinians, used something that happened after the dispossession of the Palestinians to justify it (namely, disposession of Jews somewhere else), and posted a fairly obvious Zionist propaganda site as some sort of fair and balanced view of the situation.

I'm impressed.

By the way, zak, if you didn't want to provide me with such a wonderful opportunity to make it look like you consider AI to be Hamas propaganda (which, to be honest, I wasn't trying to do), maybe you shouldn't go around accusing people of spouting Hamas propaganda just because they make some claim about Israel killing innocent civilians. They do kill innocent civilians, and there's been quite a bit of documentation of that over the past few decades.

Also, I just realized that zak just seemed to imply that Arabs have more power at the UN than America does, with his citing of the number of seats belonging to each in the UN General Assembly.

Zak, let me know when those 21 GA seats are enough to prevent sanctions against Iran for having a nuclear program.

Zak is lying as there is historical proof that the Israelis started terrorism and violence against the local Arab palestiinians first.

ZAK IS LYING WHENEVER HE SAYS OTHERWISE

1] The Zionists Jews started public bombins in the early 1940s to hasten the retreat of the British colonial master of Palestine.

This is a historical fact. Zak cannot run from it. The Arab Palestinians merely learnt from the Israelis to respond in kind.

2] "In December 1947, the British announced that they would withdraw from Palestine by May 15, 1948. Palestinians in Jerusalem and Jaffa called a general strike against the partition. Fighting broke out in Jerusalem's streets almost immediately...Violent incidents mushroomed into all-out war...During that fateful April of 1948, eight out of thirteen major Zionist military attacks on Palestinians occurred in the territory granted to the Arab state." "Our Roots Are Still Alive" by the People Press Palestine Book Project.

3] "Before the end of the mandate and, therefore before any possible intervention by Arab states, the Jews, taking advantage of their superior military preparation and organization, had occupied...most of the Arab cities in Palestine before May 15, 1948. Tiberias was occupied on April 19, 1948, Haifa on April 22, Jaffa on April 28, the Arab quarters in the New City of Jerusalem on April 30, Beisan on May 8, Safad on May 10 and Acre on May 14, 1948...In contrast, the Palestine Arabs did not seize any of the territories reserved for the Jewish state under the partition resolution." British author, Henry Cattan, "Palestine, The Arabs and Israel."

4] "Menahem Begin, the Leader of the Irgun, tells how 'in Jerusalem, as elsewhere, we were the first to pass from the defensive to the offensive...Arabs began to flee in terror...Hagana was carrying out successful attacks on other fronts, while all the Jewish forces proceeded to advance through Haifa like a knife through butter'...The Israelis now allege that the Palestine war began with the entry of the Arab armies into Palestine after 15 May 1948. But that was the second phase of the war; they overlook the massacres, expulsions and dispossessions which took place prior to that date and which necessitated Arab states' intervention." Sami Hadawi, "Bitter Harvest."

5] "For the entire day of April 9, 1948, Irgun and LEHI soldiers carried out the slaughter in a cold and premeditated fashion...The attackers 'lined men, women and children up against the walls and shot them,'...The ruthlessness of the attack on Deir Yassin shocked Jewish and world opinion alike, drove fear and panic into the Arab population, and led to the flight of unarmed civilians from their homes all over the country." Israeli author, Simha Flapan, "The Birth of Israel."

6] "By 1948, the Jew was not only able to 'defend himself' but to commit massive atrocities as well. Indeed, according to the former director of the Israeli army archives, 'in almost every village occupied by us during the War of Independence, acts were committed which are defined as war crimes, such as murders, massacres, and rapes'...Uri Milstein, the authoritative Israeli military historian of the 1948 war, goes one step further, maintaining that 'every skirmish ended in a massacre of Arabs.'" Norman Finkelstein, "Image and Reality of the Israel-Palestine Conflict."

No sane person will ever fall for the Israelis whiny lies that we were attacked first.

Because that's a lie.

If that was not the case, the United Nations would not have condemned Israel's military aggression since the 1949.

ZAK deliberately avoid addressing the issue that Islamic countries SHELTERED THE JEWS FROM CHRISTIAN PROSECUTION for hundreds of years DURING the Islamic Golden Age from the 8 to 12 centures.

It is utterly dishonest of him to keep ranting about Islam when THE JEWS HAD NEVER DONE ANYTHING TO REPAY THEIR DEBT TO THE MUSLAIMS FOR THIE KINDNESS.

The Jews only killed thousands of Arab palestinians, drove millions into refugeehood from their ancestral lands, attacked Arab villages and towns with rockets, artilllery, warplanes and bulldozers while employing targeted assassinations against Arabs.

That's why people have turned their backs on Israel as it is the worst rogue state in the Middle East, the most hypocritical and the most ungrateful.

===

Ed, thanks for being a voie of reason here. Frankly speaking, I am a little tired of such outright denials and whitewashiing of Israeli atrocities.

This act is actually what drives me to respond here because I cannot stand people twisting history to fit their religious or political agenda as a a former history student.

I don't have any Arab friends nor do I support the Hamas. But I support the sanctity of history from people like Zak.

Kes, it's all well and good that Muslim countries sheltered jews 1000 years ago. But that's like saying I should love Germany because they sheltered Jews 1000 years ago. Well, they killed 6 million Jews 60 years ago, so I think that's a bit more relevant. And Arabs stole my grandfather's property 40 years ago, and again, that's a bit more relevant.

As for the other comment from Ed about me implying anything about the number of seats at the UN, I never implied anything. Kes made a stupid remark about the US having 51 [sic] states to the Arabs' 21. That was a ridiculous comparison because the US is one federated state with 1 seat at the UN. US states are not equivalent to Arab states, which are in fact separate countries. The implications are in your head.

As for kes' usual longwinded nonesense, thanks for giving me a laundry list of Israeli terrorism in the 1940s. YOU claimed the Israelis started this. I gave you a historic example of Arabs going on rampages against Jews in the 1930s. Last time i checked the 30s preceded the 40s, so I dont understand how Jewish terrorism in the 40s is responsible for Arab terrorism in the 30s.

As for Israel killing innocent civilians, I've already more than once agreed that they have done so, and I disagree with this policy. I have yet to hear a similar admission on the Hamas-apologist side. When Hamas or Islamic Jihad or Fatah kills Israelis in suicide bombings, is THAT killing innocent civilians? Of course not, you'd say that is part of the war you're waging against the evil Zionst state. If all Israeli civilians are fair game in this conflict, then so are all Palestinians. Unfortunately, civilians are being killed on both sides. Let's see you agree with me that this is wrong. I'm sure you won't, but I challenge you to answer this honestly.

Kes, you claim I twist the facts. What do you call claiming Israel drove 'millions' of refugees from their homes. Show me documentation that 'millions' were driven from their homes. Estimates range from 500,000 to 950,000... but there aren't millions. And if you want to continue spouting that bullshit, show me where your claim of 'millions' comes from.

Then we'll see who's twisting, and who's twisting in the wind.

Killing civilians, such as setting off a bomb in a cafe, is wrong. I thought it was obvious that most everyone thought that, but whatever.

Now that I've said that, do you agree to other basic human rights notions, such as the right of Palestinian refugees to return to their former homes in Israel?

i don't have as much patience as zak for educating anti-zionists, but i did want to share some source material to debunk the myth that jews categorically kicked arabs out of the region.

since around WWI, most of the land in palestine was owned by absent arab landlords who lived in lebanon, syria and egypt. roughly 80% of palestinian arabs were debt-ridden peasants, or were nomadic in some way. as jews immigrated to the region, they sought out land that was largely uncultivated, swampy, cheap and, most important, without tenants. (i.e., they DID go out of their way to avoid purchasing land that would displace arabs.) also, many arabs were willing to sell because of the migration to coastal towns and because they needed money to invest in the citrus industry. [sources: "Land Ownership in Palestine 1880-1948," Academic Committee on the Middle East, 1976]; ["Palestinian Arab National Movement: From Riots to Rebellion: 1929-1939 vol. 2," 1977]

In 1936, outbreaks of arab attacks on jews were incited by syrian guerrilla fawzi al-qawukji, killing jews by the dozens, wounding them by the hundreds. at the height of the arab revolt in 1938, many arab landowners had been so terrorized by arab rebels, they decided to leave palestine and sell their property to the jews. [source: "One Long War," 1976]; "A History of Israel: From the Rise of Zionism to Our Time," 1979

meanwhile, the jews had been paying the wealthy landowners extremely high prices for small tracts of barren land. for example, analyses of 1944 land purchases reveal that jews typically paid more than $1,000 per acre in palestine, mostly for arid or semiarid land. if you can believe it, rich black soil in Iowa sold for $110 per acre. [source: “The Palestinians" (Land Ownership in Palestine 1880-1948), 1975]

by 1947... 387,500 out of 463,000 acres bought by jews were bought from (predominantly wealthy) arabs at exorbitant prices. additionally, 45,000 were acquired from the mandatory government and 30,000 were bought from various churches. [source: "The Land System in Palestine" 1952]

according to the palestine royal commission report, "much of the land now carrying orange groves was sand dunes or swamp and uncultivated when it was purchased....there was at the time of the earlier sales little evidence that the owners possessed either the resources or training needed to develop the land." the commission verified that the presence of jews in palestine, along with British input, had resulted in higher wages, an improved standard of living and ample employment opportunities. [source: "Palestine Royal Commission Report " (the Peel Report), 1937]

if you are bored of all these numbers, i don't begrudge you that. vitriol is easier than actually thinking.

3cheers 4, I agree with you that vitriol is easier than actually thinking. Hopefully Zak realizes that.

And as I said, I'm pro-Abraham, not anti-Zionist in another thread : >

By the way, here's research that counters your research : >

Please do more research as I have seen your sources and have refuted them in the past.

Let's dance : >

1] Local Palestinian Land ownership is over 50% as I claimed.

Your figures on land do not give any indication on how much land the Jews actually owned. I have left the figure of Jewish ownership of land at 14% of all the land in the region of Palestine, when other sources list it even lower:

"Jews... privately and collectively owned 1,393,531 dunums in 1945 (Khalaf, 1991, pp. 26-27) and 1,850,000 dunums in 1947 (Avneri p. 224). This constituted about 20% of cultivable, and 7% of the total land of Palestine."

"In 1948, at the moment that Israel declared itself a state, it legally owned a little more than 6 percent of the land of Palestine...After 1940, when the mandatory authority restricted Jewish land ownership to specific zones inside Palestine, there continued to be illegal buying (and selling) within the 65 percent of the total area restricted to Arabs.

Thus when the partition plan was announced in 1947 it included land held illegally by Jews, which was incorporated as a fait accompli inside the borders of the Jewish state. And after Israel announced its statehood, an impressive series of laws legally assimilated huge tracts of Arab land (whose proprietors had become refugees, and were pronounced 'absentee landlords' in order to expropriate their lands and prevent their return under any circumstances)." Edward Said, "The Question of Palestine."

I'm not bored by numbers as long as they lead to a clearer big picture of what happened.

It is sad that people like 3cheers4 and Zak condemn those who criticize Israel on humanitarian issues based on the spirit of the UN Charter.

However their weak positions are instantly exposed by the paucity of real date in favor of their arguments.

Zak, you claimed that I’m lying and twisting the facts?

Nope, that’s you

Does your figures refer to just after 1949 or the last 5 decades? Millions of refugees were created by Israel’s illegal invasion of neighboring territories, illegal occupation, destruction of Arab towns and settlements by brutal military force. That’s why the UNRWA (the United Nations Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees in the Near East) is created as a relief and human development agency, providing education, healthcare, social services and emergency aid to over 4.3 million refugees living in the Gaza Strip, the West Bank, Jordan, Lebanon and the Syrian Arab republic. The figure of 4.3 million is quoted on the front page of the United Nations Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees in the Near East: http://www.un.org/unrwa/ UNRWA is by far the largest UN operation in the Middle East, with over 27,000 staff, almost all of them refugees themselves, working directly to benefit their communities - as teachers, doctors, nurses or social workers.

Israel has the dubious honor of creating the worst refugee crisis in the world today with an enormous UN agency created just to solve it. <<

ZAK, you lied again

The Israelis are the ones who started using public bombings as a terrorist tactic to pursue political ends in the 1940s. They started this and nothing you do can erase this fact.

Contrary to what you claimed, what happened in the 1930s was not terrorism.

The Arabs have rioted against the Israelis in 1930s because of issues created by the Jews such as rampant illegal immigration by Zionist Jews. As the local majority, they have every right to feel threatened by such behavior.

Other Zionist behavior also includes a racist bent to dominate the region of Palestine with ludicrous laws:

“"The Zionists made no secret of their intentions, for as early as 1921, Dr. Eder, a member of the Zionist Commission, boldly told the Court of Inquiry, 'there can be only one National Home in Palestine, and that a Jewish one, and no equality in the partnership between Jews and Arabs, but a Jewish preponderance as soon as the numbers of the race are sufficiently increased.' He then asked that only Jews should be allowed to bear arms." Sami Hadawi, "Bitter Harvest.” "Even if nobody lost their land, the [Zionist] program was unjust in principle because it denied majority political rights... Zionism, in principle, could not allow the natives to exercise their political rights because it would mean the end of the Zionist enterprise." Benjamin Beit-Hallahmi, "Original Sins."

Israeli’s racist doctrines and views thus created the catalyst for a nationalist revolt from 1936-9 by the Palestinian Arabs. The revolt was crushed by the British, with considerable brutality.

In internal discussion about this affair, David Ben-Gurion, architect of the new nation state of Israel as this to say. 'in our political argument abroad, we minimize Arab opposition to us,' but he urged, 'let us not ignore the truth among ourselves.' The truth was that 'politically we are the aggressors and they defend themselves... The country is theirs, because they inhabit it, whereas we want to come here and settle down, and in their view we want to take away from them their country, while we are still outside'. Noam Chomsky, "The Fateful Triangle."

Despite Zak’s efforts to paint the Arab Palestinian revolts as terrorism, it was clearly a nationalist act for self-determination by the local indigenous majority as is their right as enshrined in the Anglo French agreement of 1918.

This is not just my view, but also Mahatma Gandhi, the great nationalist Hindu leader which helped India achieve independence from the British colonial master.

"Palestine belongs to the Arabs in the same sense that England belongs to the English or France to the French...What is going on in Palestine today cannot be justified by any moral code of conduct...If they [the Jews] must look to the Palestine of geography as their national home, it is wrong to enter it under the shadow of the British gun. A religious act cannot be performed with the aid of the bayonet or the bomb. They can settle in Palestine only by the goodwill of the Arabs... As it is, they are co-sharers with the British in despoiling a people who have done no wrong to them. I am not defending the Arab excesses. I wish they had chosen the way of non-violence in resisting what they rightly regard as an unacceptable encroachment upon their country. But according to the accepted canons of right and wrong, nothing can be said against the Arab resistance in the face of overwhelming odds." Mahatma Gandhi, quoted in "A Land of Two Peoples" ed. Mendes-Flohr.

Zak has proven why the Israeli Jews deserve no sympathy with this statement on why the Jews need to show no gratitude to the Arabs:

“Kes, it's all well and good that Muslim countries sheltered jews 1000 years ago. But that's like saying I should love Germany because they sheltered Jews 1000 years ago. Well, they killed 6 million Jews 60 years ago, so I think that's a bit more relevant. And Arabs stole my grandfather's property 40 years ago, and again, that's a bit more relevant.”

First, it is misleading for him to compare the Arab Palestinians to the Germans who have seen widespread slaughters of Jews during the Crusades and WW2. The Arabs did not inflict any such Holocause on the Jews, although the Jews unleashed one on them.

And by the way, during the start of the Islamic Golden period from the 8th to 13thcentury, Christian Europe was engaged in Jewish prosecution and the Muslims provided asylum for these Jews continue with their beliefs and religious research.

However, based on Zak’s reasoning, the Jews did not have to repay this immense historical debt, which helped the Jews to preserve their Jewish culture and learning from the intense Christian prosecution.

The Jews were able to survive as a civilization and culture, thanks to the Islamic countries that took them during those 500 years.

However, pro-Israel people like Zak is willing to overlook this immense unpaid debt in their quest to justify Israeli rights based on military oppression of Arab Palestinians.

And they wonder why the world turned its back on Israel? Besides its numerous rogue state acts, the Jews have shown a propensity to bite the hands of those who helped them.

In this respect, how can Israel blame people for treating Israel like a mad dog with rabies that threaten both friend and foe? Because that's the truth of the nature of Israel.

And Zak, the Arab Palestinians never stole anything the the Jews in Israel, of which most are European immigrants whose grandfathers and ancestoes hve never lived in the reggion of Palestine.

Stop lying for Israel.

The Israelis are the ones who stole the lives and homes of 4.5 million Arab Palestinians refugees who has lived there before and after the Biblical Jewish Exodus for thousands of years, while killing thousands of Arab civilains with miltary force and destroying hundreds of Arab towns and villages.

Hey, the Israeli Zionists sounds as bad as the Nazi Germans, who did the same thing to them. That's why both groups deserve and received international condemnation for their atrocities.

And Zak, the Arab Palestinians never stole anything the the Jews in Israel, of which most are European immigrants whose grandfathers and ancestoes hve never lived in the reggion of Palestine.

Stop lying for Israel.

The Israelis are the ones who stole the lives and homes of 4.5 million Arab Palestinians refugees who has lived there before and after the Biblical Jewish Exodus for thousands of years, while killing thousands of Arab civilains with miltary force and destroying hundreds of Arab towns and villages.

Hey, the Israeli Zionists sounds as bad as the Nazi Germans, who did the same thing to them. That's why both groups deserve and received international condemnation for their atrocities.

Kes, really, you're dumb. And this will be the last time I reply to your idiotic posts.

There may be 4.5 million Arab refugees NOW, but that's because they've been fucking for the last 60 years. Israel did not kick 4.5 million Arabs off their land. You can't blame Israel for stealing the land of 4.5 million Arabs when 4.5 million Arabs did not exist on that land when Israel supposedly kicked them out.

As for being 'pro-Abraham', what the hell does that mean? If you're pro-Abraham, you sure as hell are showing preferential treatment for one of his sons.

As for what happened in the 1930s, I never claimed that was terrorism. You claimed the Israelis started the violence. I've clearly shown that the Arabs started the violence at least a decade before Israelis started killing Arabs. I dont give a flying fuck whether you call it terrorism or not. Arabs were killing Jews in the 1930s. Period. Jews were not killing Arabs. Spin it any way you like. But those are the documented historical facts.

Now, 3Cheers if you want to continue arguing with this loonie, go ahead. I'm done.

And one last thing, kes, you ignorant fool. Enough with comparing Zionists to Nazis. It was the Arabs who collaborated with the Nazis, not the Jews. And it was the Palestinians' Arab 'brothers' who left them to rot in camps for decades, not the Zionists. If you dont believe it, look it up for Christ's sake. And when you're ready to debate with facts, instead of stupidity, let me know.

Hi Zak, I'm not dumb as you say, just honest. You should try that some time.

As for the refugee issue, you are the one who is dishonest by not giving any time frame for your grossly underquoted figures of the refugee problems caused by the Israelis.

For the last 50 years, Arab Palestinians are constantly being evicted from the lands by Israeli military aggresstion, illegal occupation and settlement building.

Based on reserch, by the 1960s, about 2 million refugees existed. It is thus not surprising that as Israel continues its atrocities, the number increases.

Israel has created the world's worst refugee problems and that's a fact that's recognised by the UN.

=========

Since the 1940s, Zionist leaders had pressed a claim of "historical connection" since their ancestors had lived in Palestine two thousand years earlier before dispersing in the "Diaspora".

It is a misleading claim.

The Zionists forgot that since the land belongs to the descendants of these “ancestors” called Abraham, who are people who have lived there continuously before the Roman and Hellenistic occupations.

These descendants are today's Palestinians (Jews who have converted to Islam) and Sephardic Jews (Jews who have lived there as a minority group for the last 1400 years).

They have lived side-byside with each other.

The majority of the Jews in israel by the 1940s were the immigrants from Europe called the Askhenazim Jews, who are a slavic convert tribe.

As immigrants and as a part of a small minority i.e. less than 20% of the population in the region of Palestine was Jews, their European Jews have no right to demand a jewish state.

This group represented the most vocal of those demanding the right to a jewish state. despite beings recent immigrants after WW2, many of which came by illegal immigration.

Thus to be anti-zionist is not to be anti-semitic.

Rather, since the Palestinians are much more the descendants of Abraham and Moses than the non-indegnous Askhenazi Jews, who form the bulk of Israel's jewish population, to favour Palestinians is to be pro-Semitic.

Yes, to be pro-Palestinian actually means to be pro-Abraham : >

==========

I have every right to compare Zionists Jews with the Nazis when they commit the same kind of atrocities.

And you are wrong. The Catholics co-operated with the Nazis.

The Arab countries sheltered the Jews ND THEIR CULTURE FOR 500 YEARS from Christian prosecution from Christian Europe, thus saving their civilisation.

Your pathetic attempt to whitewash the Jew's ingratitude for this historical debt is not just shameful but utterly morally indefensible.

Yes, it was Paradise for the Jews in Arab lands. I think the Jews should just give up on Israel and shuffle back to Arab countries. (Cue: Kumbaya)

From: http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/myths/mf15.html

Arab leaders have repeatedly made clear their animosity toward Jews and Judaism. For example, on November 23, 1937, Saudi Arabia's King Ibn Saud told British Colonel H.R.P. Dickson: "Our hatred for the Jews dates from God's condemnation of them for their persecution and rejection of Isa (Jesus) and their subsequent rejection of His chosen Prophet." He added "that for a Muslim to kill a Jew, or for him to be killed by a Jew ensures him an immediate entry into Heaven and into the august presence of God Almighty."3

When Hitler introduced the Nuremberg racial laws in 1935, he received telegrams of congratulation from all corners of the Arab world.4 Later, during the war, one of his most ardent supporters was the Mufti of Jerusalem.

Jews were never permitted to live in Jordan. Civil Law No. 6, which governed the Jordanian-occupied West Bank, states explicitly: "Any man will be a Jordanian subject if he is not Jewish."5

The Arab countries see to it that even young schoolchildren are taught to hate Jews. The Syrian Minister of Education wrote in 1968: "The hatred which we indoctrinate into the minds of our children from their birth is sacred."6

After the Six-Day War in 1967, the Israelis found public school textbooks that had been used to educate Arab children in the West Bank. They were replete with racist and hateful portrayals of Jews:

"The Jews are scattered to the ends of the earth, where they live exiled and despised, since by their nature they are vile, greedy and enemies of mankind, by their nature they were tempted to steal a land as asylum for their disgrace."7

"Analyze the following sentences:

1. The merchant himself traveled to the African continent.

2. We shall expel all the Jews from the Arab countries."8

"The Jews of our time are the descendants of the Jews who harmed the Prophet Muhammad. They betrayed him, they broke the treaty with him and joined sides with his enemies to fight him..."9

"The Jews in Europe were persecuted and despised because of their corruption, meanness and treachery."10

More examples of paradise for the Jews in Arab lands:

At various times, Jews in Muslim lands lived in relative peace and thrived culturally and economically. The position of the Jews was never secure, however, and changes in the political or social climate would often lead to persecution, violence and death.

When Jews were perceived as having achieved too comfortable a position in Islamic society, anti-Semitism would surface, often with devastating results. On December 30, 1066, Joseph HaNagid, the Jewish vizier of Granada, Spain, was crucified by an Arab mob that proceeded to raze the Jewish quarter of the city and slaughter its 5,000 inhabitants. The riot was incited by Muslim preachers who had angrily objected to what they saw as inordinate Jewish political power.

Similarly, in 1465, Arab mobs in Fez slaughtered thousands of Jews, leaving only 11 alive, after a Jewish deputy vizier treated a Muslim woman in "an offensive manner." The killings touched off a wave of similar massacres throughout Morocco.25

Other mass murders of Jews in Arab lands occurred in Morocco in the 8th century, where whole communities were wiped out by the Muslim ruler Idris I; North Africa in the 12th century, where the Almohads either forcibly converted or decimated several communities; Libya in 1785, where Ali Burzi Pasha murdered hundreds of Jews; Algiers, where Jews were massacred in 1805, 1815 and 1830; and Marrakesh, Morocco, where more than 300 Jews were murdered between 1864 and 1880.26

Decrees ordering the destruction of synagogues were enacted in Egypt and Syria (1014, 1293-4, 1301-2), Iraq (854-859, 1344) and Yemen (1676). Despite the Koran's prohibition, Jews were forced to convert to Islam or face death in Yemen (1165 and 1678), Morocco (1275, 1465 and 1790-92) and Baghdad (1333 and 1344).27

The situation of Jews in Arab lands reached a low point in the 19th century. Jews in most of North Africa (including Algeria, Tunisia, Egypt, Libya and Morocco) were forced to live in ghettos. In Morocco, which contained the largest Jewish community in the Islamic Diaspora, Jews were made to walk barefoot or wear shoes of straw when outside the ghetto. Even Muslim children participated in the degradation of Jews, by throwing stones at them or harassing them in other ways. The frequency of anti-Jewish violence increased, and many Jews were executed on charges of apostasy. Ritual murder accusations against the Jews became commonplace in the Ottoman Empire.28

Zak, still trying to mislead the crowd.

Nice try but you should put in some real context for your comments.

In the 1930s, the Arabs were deadset against Jewish immigration into Jewish lands BECAUSE OF ZIONIST INTENTIONS TO CREATE A STATE ON ARAB SOIL VIA ANY MEANS.

As the indigenous local majority in the Middle East, the Arabs had the right to reject the largely Jewish immigrants from Europe, since they have no real ties to any land in the Middle East.

====

Jewish beliefs and actions in the 1930s justified this response from the Arabs.

MIDDLE AGES

"[During the Middle Ages,] North Africa and the Arab Middle East became places of refuge and a haven for the persecuted Jews of Spain and elsewhere...In the Holy Land...they lived together in [relative] harmony, a harmony only disrupted when the Zionists began to claim that Palestine was the 'rightful' possession of the 'Jewish people' to the exclusion of its Moslem and Christian inhabitants." Sami Hadawi, "Bitter Harvest."

Jewish intolerance and bigotry was widespread evident towards Arabs when reaching Palestine.

"Serfs they (the Jews) were in the lands of the Diaspora, and suddenly they find themselves in freedom [in Palestine]; and this change has awakened in them an inclination to despotism. They treat the Arabs with hostility and cruelty, deprive them of their rights, offend them without cause, and even boast of these deeds; and nobody among us opposes this despicable and dangerous inclination." Zionist writer Ahad Ha'am, quoted in Sami Hadawi, "Bitter Harvest."

In the early 1900s, the Jews made it clear that they have nor espect for the Arabs and their rights on their ancestral lands in the Middle East.

"The Zionists made no secret of their intentions, for as early as 1921, Dr. Eder, a member of the Zionist Commission, boldly told the Court of Inquiry, 'there can be only one National Home in Palestine, and that a Jewish one, and no equality in the partnership between Jews and Arabs, but a Jewish preponderance as soon as the numbers of the race are sufficiently increased.' He then asked that only Jews should be allowed to bear arms." Sami Hadawi, "Bitter Harvest."

Zak tries to whitewash the Arab's role in giving the Jews asylum from Christian prosecution in Europe.

"Religious Tolerance

When Islam was laying the foundations of its civilisation; it did not adopt a narrow-minded attitude to other religions. The behaviour toward other religions was in keeping with the principles laid down in the Quran:

"Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from error… (Al-Baqarah 256)

"If it had been your Lord's Will, they would all have believed, all who are on earth! Will you then compel people, against their will, to believe!" (Yunus 10:99)

Say: "We believe in Allah, and the revelation given to us, and to Abraham, Isma'il, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes, and that given to Moses and Jesus, and that given to (all) Prophets from their Lord: we make no difference between any of them: and we submit to Allah (in Islam)." (Q2:136)

"…Had not Allah checked one set of people by means of another there would surely have been pulled down monasteries, churches, synagogues, and mosques, in which the name of Allah is commemorated in abundant measure…" (Al-Hajj 22:40)

The well known American writer, Draper, wrote: "During the period of the caliphs, the learned men of the Christians and the Jews were not only held in high esteem but were appointed to posts of great responsibility, and were promoted to high ranking positions in government. Haroon Rasheed appointed John the son of Maswaih, the Director of Public Instruction and all the schools and colleges were placed under his charge. He (Haroon) never considered to which country a learned person belonged nor his faith and belief, but only his excellence in the field of learning."

Sir Mark Syce, writing on the qualities of Muslim rule during the period of Haroon Rasheed said: "The Christians, the idolaters, the Jews and the Muslims as workers running the Islamic State were at work with equal zeal."

Liefy Brutistal wrote in his book: "Spain of the Tenth Century: So often the scribe writing out the terms of a treaty was a Jew or a Christian. Just as many Jews and Christians were holding charge of important posts in the State. And they were vested with authority in the administrative departments, even in matters of war and peace. And there were several Jews who acted as the ambassadors of the Caliph in European countries."

Islam’s Golden Age has many lessons to teach the greedy and terrorized world of today."

http://www.irfi.org/articles/articles401450/goldenageof_islam.htm

Zak is unable to give any specific example of Arab countries in the Middle Ages that prosecute Jews as a policy.

Here's a specific example from me that showed how an Arab country helped the Jews to prosper despite Christian prosecution in the Middle Ages.

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The Golden age of Jewish culture in Spain, also known as the Golden Age of Arab Rule in Spain, refers to a period of history during the Muslim occupation of Spain in which Jews were generally accepted in Spanish society and Jewish religious, cultural, and economic life blossomed...

...Moorish Spain was clearly a key center of Jewish life during the early Middle Ages, producing important scholars and one of the most stable and wealthy Jewish communities.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GoldenageofJewishcultureinSpain

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In the light of this, it is indeed quite proper to call the Zionists Jews in Israel AS UNGRATEFUL, as they killed thousands of Arab civilains, destroyed hundreds of Arab settlements and creating a 8 million Palestinian refugee problem.

8 million!!!!

Estimates put the worldwide Palestinian population at over 8 million today. In June 2004, UNRWA data showed some 4,186,711 registered refugees in its "area of operation" (West Bank, Gaza, Jordan, Syria, Lebanon).

http://www.arts.mcgill.ca/mepp/new_prrn/background/index.htm

By the way, Zak, all your points does not constitute a credible defense for Israel actions in the last 50 years.

1] Creating a Palestinian refugee problem of 8 million by expelling Arab civilians from their ancestral lands in the region of Palestine, Gaza Strip and West Bank.

2] Being the first to slaughter thousands civilians with MODERN military force such as shelling, rocket attacks and bulldozers.

3] Destroying hundreds of Arab settlements while building new ones on occupied terrirotries, which contravened the OSLO Accords and other international agreements.

4] Pursuing and succeeding in an illegal clandestine programme to develop nuclear weapons while preventing neighbours to do the same.

5] Anti-semitism as the Arab Palestinians consists of direct descendants of Abraham

6] Illegal millitary aggression and land grabs.

But it does not matter anyway. By 2010, Israel's Arab population will become the majority and Israel will be reverted to an Arab territory anyway.

Kes, I gave you more than adequate examples of how Arabs persecuted Jews throughout the last 1000 years. I never said there weren't times when the two peoples lives in peace together. They obviously did. As did Jews in Christian countries. But just as you dont recognize all the 'good times' Palestinians have had under Jewish rule, you cant really expect Jews to be forever in the debt of Arabs who slaughtered them repeatedly in nearly every Arab land, long before there were Zionist immigrants flooding into Palestine.

My point is, you want to believe that Arabs and Muslims loved the Jews, except when Jews tried to take over Palestinian land. This is not true. Arabs and Muslims killed Jews, raped Jews, stole their possessions, ghettoized them, humiliated them -- in clear contravention of the Koran. This does not legitimize what's going on now. But to suggest as you have that Arabs are complete victims in this is a complete fabrication.

A fabrication akin to your bs claim that Israel exiled 'millions' of Palestinians (false) or that there are currently 8 million Palestinian refugees (false). I think by now anyone reading these posts can clearly see how you repeatedly twist your facts and numbers. You have not been able to refute anything I've said. You just pile more bullshit onto the pile. Unfortunately for the 99% of the population who dont give a shit about either my people or yours, this just leads them to ignore both of us.

And in case you thought there was a typo there, I dont believe for one minute that you're "Asian" ... You've shown you know nothing about Chinese history and way too much (or so you think) about Arab history. You've obviously fabricated this Asian business so as to make yourself appear impartial. I dont buy it. It's a lie, just like most of everything else you say.

Kes writes: "But it does not matter anyway. By 2010, Israel's Arab population will become the majority and Israel will be reverted to an Arab territory anyway."

God, so much crap to deal with, so little time.

1) If it "doesn't matter anyway" you sure as hell have wasted a lot of time. 2) Please find me where anyone except your delusional self has claimed that the Arab population of Israel will overtake the Jewish one by 2010. LOL. Again, you pull these numbers out of your ass. I think what you mean is that the Arab population of Israeli controlled land will become majority Arab, but this includes the West Bank and Gaza and somehow I don't think you recognize these lands as part of Israel, do you?

Didn't think so.

Zak is a compulsive liar.

I have never claimed the Arabs loved the Jews in my previous posts.

I have onlys aid that the Arabs have helped the Jews and sheltered them from Christian prosecution in the past.

AND THE JEWS HAVE NEVER REPAID THEIR KINDNESS.

Whatever atrocties Zak raise, I can find a ready counter from histroical records, which showed that Isramic countries during the Golden Age, sheltered the Jews from Christian prosecution and saved their culture and civilisation by giving the Jews the freedom to practise their religion and hold officail posts.

Zak refuses to acknowledges my points as he wants to paint the Arabs as pure black hearts even when history proves otherwise.

It is his intention to prove them so moraaly repulsive that people will suport Israel and its many atrocities against Arab palestinians, even when which are ranked in the league of the atrocities commited by Saddam Hussen and Nazis.

Unfortunately, Zak is barking up the wrong tree as historical and United Nation Records supports my stand against Israel and its rogue state activities and human rights violations.

And people like Zak can keep on dreaming that no one will stop them from whitewashing history to support Israel from perpetuating the worst Holocaust on any ethnic race for the last 50 years, which has created the worst refugee problem in the world today i.e. 8 million refugees.

Kindly refer to the links and offical documents that I provided earlier in the thread.

Some useful reading on just how fair and democractic Israel is as a Middle East Country.

Strange, it certainly looks like any other totalitarian state in the Middle East.

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Israeli High Court Upholds Unification Law High Court Upholds Law Barring West Bank Palestinians From Living With Family in Israel By ARON HELLER The Associated Press http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory?id=1959744 JERUSALEM - Israel's high court Sunday narrowly upheld a controversial law that restricts the right of Palestinians to live in Israel with their Arab Israeli spouses and children. The law, imposed in 2002 at the height of Israeli-Palestinian fighting, is believed to have kept hundreds, and possibly thousands, of West Bank and Gaza Palestinians from moving to Israel to live with their families. The law states that only Palestinian women over the age of 25 and men over 35 are eligible to join their families in Israel and eventually receive citizenship....

The government argues the legislation is based on security concerns, but the restrictions also cut to a sensitive demographic issue the fear that Israel's Jewish majority could be threatened if too many Palestinians were granted citizenship....

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The truth you don't hear http://weekly.ahram.org.eg/2005/771/op2.htm The on-the-ground reality of Israel's moral bankruptcy in its genocidal policies towards the Palestinians remains as clear as ever, writes Mustafa Barghouti*

What is the current situation on the ground in Palestine? The Israeli narrative that continues to dominate the international media presents an image that is absolutely at odds with reality. The Gaza redeployment was spun as the beginning of a peace process; a great retreat by General Ariel Sharon, who was portrayed as a man of peace. Yet the fact remains that Palestine is 27,000 square kilometres, of which the West Bank constitutes only 5,860 square kilometres, and the Gaza Strip, just 360 sq km. This is equal to only 1.3 per cent of the total land of historic Palestine. So even if Sharon really had withdrawn from Gaza, this would amount to just 5.8 per cent of the occupied territories. But the Israelis did not get out of Gaza. A big fuss was created about the great sacrifice Israel was making and how painful it was for settlers to leave. If you steal a piece of land and keep it for 20 years, of course it becomes painful to leave it but it is still something stolen that should be returned to its owners. Prior to the disengagement, a total of 152 settlements existed in the occupied territories: 101 in the West Bank, 30 in East Jerusalem, and 21 in the Gaza Strip. These figures do not include the settlements that Sharon and the Israeli army have created in the West Bank without officially recognising them. With the disengagement, and the evacuation of settlements in Gaza and four small settlements in the Jenin area of the West Bank, 127 settlements have been left in place. The total population of settlers -- illegal under international law, and under the 2004 ruling of the International Court of Justice (ICJ), which states that the separation wall and every settlement in the West Bank, Gaza and East Jerusalem must be removed -- numbers some 436,000: 190,000 in Jerusalem, and 246,000 in the West Bank. Just 8,475, or two per cent of the total number of illegal settlers in the occupied territories were removed from the Gaza Strip and Jenin area. Yet in the same period, the settlement population in the West Bank has grown by a massive 15,800. So why remove settlers from Gaza if the disengagement was simply an exercise in relocation? Firstly, Israel never really wanted to keep them there. They were a bargaining chip to use when the time came to talk about the future of the occupied territories. But providing security for this relatively small number of settlers through a sustained military presence in the Gaza Strip was proving costly...

Zak claims that Israel can give the Arab palestinians a state.

It's actually not much of an offer:

"Mr. Olmert's proposal has two parts, and the first one is fine: to withdraw Israeli settlers and troops from vast areas of the occupied West Bank. That's a worthy goal, and one that has been way too long in coming. The problem is with the second part of the proposal: to retain several large settlement blocs in the Palestinian West Bank. That's a recipe for disaster. Anyone who has ever really looked at a map of Israel, the West Bank and Gaza can see how hard it will be to form a Palestinian state. Even a future Palestine that includes all of the West Bank and Gaza is still going to be in two pieces with Israel in the middle, separating Gaza from the West Bank."

A Viable Palestinian State May 25, 2006 EDITORIAL

HTTP://WWW.NYTIMES.COM/2006/05/25/OPINION/25THU1.HTML?_R=1&TH&EMC=TH&OREF=SLOGIN