I haven't read a post that puts to words so succinctly my feelings on this topic. The only thing that I wish to bring up is that I've read that the carbon dating of the original texts that comprise the Christian Bible have been shown to pre-date the events which they predict. Of course, I can't reference that article here because it was some time ago when I read it - can anyone confirm or deny this?

That was excellent, thanks.

Wowm that was very profound. I enjoyed every bit of it. Thanks Norm!

Is that in the newest issue of Free Inquiry? I haven't gotten my copy yet.

Wonderfully Written. thanks for sharing Norm.

I stopped believing in God for the same reason I stopped believing in Santa Claus.

I'm rational and I grew up.

One of my favorite quotes: "I contend we are both atheists, I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours." ...Stephen F Roberts

While I agree with the sentiments I do see what I perceive to be an error in presentation.

I think the comparison of Christianity vs. Islam to the aetheist vs. all religion is a very suscint presentation of perspecitve.

I disagree strongly with the challenge to accurately predict future events or mathematics or any reference to the sciences. By most accounts I’ve encountered, ‘believers’ acknowledge that the ‘good book(s)’ are all transcribed by human hands, no matter how divinely inspired. Asking someone from the first century to understand the ‘modern world’ is an amusing prospect. The book ‘Good Omens’ does a humorous interpretation of how that would have played out.

But when it comes right down to it, challenging religion with science, faith with fact, is a proposition I have yet to see fulfill it’s potential. I much prefer the approach of pointing out the blatant hypocrisy and double standards inherent to most western faith systems.

Cheers! Nice effort.

Yes, it's in the current issue.

I can understand your position of not believing in a God you can not see. It’s hard enough to believe in things we do see these days. As you know faith is not a tangible, so it must be approached from a different avenue. I see you have addressed many aspects of the Christian beliefs and foundations for their beliefs, but I ask you what is faith? Have you ever truly searched to find out if there is a supreme being? I assume that to be an atheists you had to search out all the places where a Supreme Being might be hiding. By reading your last Blog you are still searching……….. I hope ya find him…. “Oh” btw look between the lines he’s there…..

Larry, Christians don't really understand or really have faith in the first place. They should really try to stop lecturing others on it from a holier-than though standpoint.

That's my view and is based on my own definition of faith, which I have approached from a different avenue i.e. outside of Christianity. My definition is meant to be as universal as I can make it, which is a lot more than the Christian's definition will ever be.

Christians seem to think they have a monopoly on faith and morality. Judging from the track record of Christianity in world history, Asian philosophies and religions have a clear-cut stronger position actually.

I have examined faith from a non-Christian view point and I found that faith is much bigger an issue that Christians ever thought it to be.

I have posted on this topic b4, so this is just an exerpt from my original posting.

"Faith starts from within, and should not be enforced from without like believing in a GOD makes you a good person.

Faith is not a denial of a human's basic instincts such as sexual impulse.

Faith does not start with doubting oneself or condemning oneself for human fallibilities.

Faith starts by identifying those things that matter you most and then to protect them and embody them in life in heart, mind and body. This is the truest form of faith that is undertaken without any expectations of rewards or a quick route to Heaven.

That’s why I believe in doing things only if it means something to me.

And I will keep doing it, regardless of any peer pressure or outside influence.

And after doing it, only then do I think I have the right to share my experience of this matter along with all its ramifications. After all, a moral standard is all about leading by personal example.

For me, faith is my way of life, something that I embody in mind, heart and body."

That's my faith. What's yours?

Faith in Jesus, but not in yourself and your fellow men? Faith in God but not in man's ability to differentiate what is good and evil, with ot without faith?

I have faith in my fellow men and that all of us share a desire to better ourselves and the world. That's my faith. You got a problem with that?

Just food for thought, Larry.

Great read. Wisdom potentially belongs to all of us, doesn't it? Great mystics,philosophers and true scientists have had the most creative conversations. And being rational is part of our essence, just like we're spiritual, manual, individual,emotional,sexual and social. Those features coexist in humans. That's what's great about us. Let us all make good use of those assets.

Hi Christopher, are you referring to this?

"In Judaism it is commonly thought that the canonical status of some books was discussed between 200 BC and AD 100, though it is unclear at what point during this period the Jewish canon was decided. Protestants cite the Old Testament canon defined by the Council of Jamnia (the conclusions of which are often in dispute, although those attributed to it have all taken effect) in AD 90 as their basis for not including the Deuterocanonical books, (known as the Apocrypha to Protestants) where Roman Catholics assert that Jewish council was convened in reaction to the rise of Christianity and its use of the Septuagint. (It should however be noted that no Septuagint that predates the fourth century contains the Deuterocanonical texts)"

Mr. Harris won’t understand Scripture no matter how much he reads unless he has been Baptized by the Holy Spirit. 1 John 2:27-28 “27But you have received the Holy Spirit,[e] and he lives within you, so you don't need anyone to teach you what is true. For the Spirit teaches you all things, and what he teaches is true--it is not a lie. So continue in what he has taught you, and continue to live in Christ.     28And now, dear children, continue to live in fellowship with Christ so that when he returns, you will be full of courage and not shrink back from him in shame. 29Since we know that God is always right, we also know that all who do what is right are his children.”

1 Corinthians 2 “0But we know these things because God has revealed them to us by his Spirit, and his Spirit searches out everything and shows us even God's deep secrets. 11No one can know what anyone else is really thinking except that person alone, and no one can know God's thoughts except God's own Spirit. 12And God has actually given us his Spirit (not the world's spirit) so we can know the wonderful things God has freely given us. 13When we tell you this, we do not use words of human wisdom. We speak words given to us by the Spirit, using the Spirit's words to explain spiritual truths.[e] 14But people who aren't Christians can't understand these truths from God's Spirit. It all sounds foolish to them because only those who have the Spirit can understand what the Spirit means. 15We who have the Spirit understand these things, but others can't understand us at all. 16How could they? For,         "Who can know what the Lord is thinking?        Who can give him counsel?"[f]     But we can understand these things, for we have the mind of Christ.”

Now onto the sickness in this world. First we have to remember that there is still sin in this world until the second coming of Christ where He will make everything whole and perfect. If there was no sickness on Earth, then everything would be perfect and that would be no need for Heaven or a Saviour. Jesus makes it very clear in His word, in Heaven, there is no more sickness, pain, suffering, tears and anything else that people suffer today.

But why we have what we have today:

Deuteronomy 28 Blessings for Obedience  1"If you fully obey the LORD your God by keeping all the commands I am giving you today, the LORD your God will exalt you above all the nations of the world. 2You will experience all these blessings if you obey the LORD your God:         3     You will be blessed in your towns and in the country.     4     You will be blessed with many children and productive fields.         You will be blessed with fertile herds and flocks.     5     You will be blessed with baskets overflowing with fruit, and with kneading bowls filled with bread.     6     You will be blessed wherever you go, both in coming and in going.     7"The LORD will conquer your enemies when they attack you. They will attack you from one direction, but they will scatter from you in seven!     8"The LORD will bless everything you do and will fill your storehouses with grain. The LORD your God will bless you in the land he is giving you.     9"If you obey the commands of the LORD your God and walk in his ways, the LORD will establish you as his holy people as he solemnly promised to do. 10Then all the nations of the world will see that you are a people claimed by the LORD, and they will stand in awe of you.     11"The LORD will give you an abundance of good things in the land he swore to give your ancestors--many children, numerous livestock, and abundant crops. 12The LORD will send rain at the proper time from his rich treasury in the heavens to bless all the work you do. You will lend to many nations, but you will never need to borrow from them. 13If you listen to these commands of the LORD your God and carefully obey them, the LORD will make you the head and not the tail, and you will always have the upper hand. 14You must not turn away from any of the commands I am giving you today to follow after other gods and worship them.     Curses for Disobedience  15"But if you refuse to listen to the LORD your God and do not obey all the commands and laws I am giving you today, all these curses will come and overwhelm you:         16     You will be cursed in your towns and in the country.     17     You will be cursed with baskets empty of fruit, and with kneading bowls empty of bread.     18     You will be cursed with few children and barren fields.         You will be cursed with infertile herds and flocks.     19     You will be cursed wherever you go, both in coming and in going.     20"The LORD himself will send against you curses, confusion, and disillusionment in everything you do, until at last you are completely destroyed for doing evil and forsaking me. 21The LORD will send diseases among you until none of you are left in the land you are about to enter and occupy. 22The LORD will strike you with wasting disease, fever, and inflammation, with scorching heat and drought, and with blight and mildew. These devastations will pursue you until you die. 23The skies above will be as unyielding as bronze, and the earth beneath will be as hard as iron. 24The LORD will turn your rain into sand and dust, and it will pour down from the sky until you are destroyed.     25"The LORD will cause you to be defeated by your enemies. You will attack your enemies from one direction, but you will scatter from them in seven! You will be an object of horror to all the kingdoms of the earth. 26Your dead bodies will be food for the birds and wild animals, and no one will be there to chase them away.     27"The LORD will afflict you with the boils of Egypt and with tumors, scurvy, and the itch, from which you cannot be cured. 28The LORD will strike you with madness, blindness, and panic. 29You will grope around in broad daylight, just like a blind person groping in the darkness, and you will not succeed at anything you do. You will be oppressed and robbed continually, and no one will come to save you.     30"You will be engaged to a woman, but another man will ravish her. You will build a house, but someone else will live in it. You will plant a vineyard, but you will never enjoy its fruit. 31Your ox will be butchered before your eyes, but you won't get a single bite of the meat. Your donkey will be driven away, never to be returned. Your sheep will be given to your enemies, and no one will be there to help you. 32You will watch as your sons and daughters are taken away as slaves. Your heart will break as you long for them, but nothing you do will help. 33A foreign nation you have never heard about will eat the crops you worked so hard to grow. You will suffer under constant oppression and harsh treatment. 34You will go mad because of all the tragedy around you. 35The LORD will cover you from head to foot with incurable boils.     36"The LORD will exile you and the king you crowned to a nation unknown to you and your ancestors. Then in exile you will worship gods of wood and stone! 37You will become an object of horror, a proverb and a mockery among all the nations to which the LORD sends you.     38"You will plant much but harvest little, for locusts will eat your crops. 39You will plant vineyards and care for them, but you will not drink the wine or eat the grapes, for worms will destroy the vines. 40You will grow olive trees throughout your land, but you will never use the olive oil, for the trees will drop the fruit before it is ripe. 41You will have sons and daughters, but you will not keep them, for they will be led away into captivity. 42Swarms of insects will destroy your trees and crops. 43The foreigners living among you will become stronger and stronger, while you become weaker and weaker. 44They will lend money to you, not you to them. They will be the head, and you will be the tail!     45"If you refuse to listen to the LORD your God and to obey the commands and laws he has given you, all these curses will pursue and overtake you until you are destroyed. 46These horrors will serve as a sign and warning among you and your descendants forever. 47Because you have not served the LORD your God with joy and enthusiasm for the abundant benefits you have received, 48you will serve your enemies whom the LORD will send against you. You will be left hungry, thirsty, naked, and lacking in everything. They will oppress you harshly until you are destroyed.     49"The LORD will bring a distant nation against you from the end of the earth, and it will swoop down on you like an eagle. It is a nation whose language you do not understand, 50a fierce and heartless nation that shows no respect for the old and no pity for the young. 51Its armies will devour your livestock and crops, and you will starve to death. They will leave you no grain, new wine, olive oil, calves, or lambs, bringing about your destruction. 52They will lay siege to your cities until all the fortified walls in your land--the walls you trusted to protect you--are knocked down. They will attack all the towns in the land the LORD your God has given you. 53The siege will be so severe that you will eat the flesh of your own sons and daughters, whom the LORD your God has given you. 54The most tenderhearted man among you will have no compassion for his own brother, his beloved wife, and his surviving children. 55He will refuse to give them a share of the flesh he is devouring--the flesh of one of his own children--because he has nothing else to eat during the siege that your enemy will inflict on all your towns. 56The most tender and delicate woman among you--so delicate she would not so much as touch her feet to the ground--will be cruel to the husband she loves and to her own son or daughter. 57She will hide from them the afterbirth and the new baby she has borne, so that she herself can secretly eat them. She will have nothing else to eat during the siege and terrible distress that your enemy will inflict on all your towns.     58"If you refuse to obey all the terms of this law that are written in this book, and if you do not fear the glorious and awesome name of the LORD your God, 59then the LORD will overwhelm both you and your children with indescribable plagues. These plagues will be intense and without relief, making you miserable and unbearably sick. 60He will bring against you all the diseases of Egypt that you feared so much, and they will claim you. 61The LORD will bring against you every sickness and plague there is, even those not mentioned in this Book of the Law, until you are destroyed. 62Though you are as numerous as the stars in the sky, few of you will be left because you would not listen to the LORD your God.     63"Just as the LORD has found great pleasure in helping you to prosper and multiply, the LORD will find pleasure in destroying you, until you disappear from the land you are about to enter and occupy. 64For the LORD will scatter you among all the nations from one end of the earth to the other. There you will worship foreign gods that neither you nor your ancestors have known, gods made of wood and stone! 65There among those nations you will find no place of security and rest. And the LORD will cause your heart to tremble, your eyesight to fail, and your soul to despair. 66Your lives will hang in doubt. You will live night and day in fear, with no reason to believe that you will see the morning light. 67In the morning you will say, If only it were night!' And in the evening you will say,If only it were morning!' You will say this because of your terror at the awesome horrors you see around you. 68Then the LORD will send you back to Egypt in ships, a journey I promised you would never again make. There you will offer to sell yourselves to your enemies as slaves, but no one will want to buy you."

Second, to go against what Mr. Harris had to say:

http://www.lewrockwell.com/barnwell/barnwell57.html

"My column last week debunking some of the more controversial claims of The Da Vinci Code received a great deal of response. Most individuals agree that the facts are simply not there to support the claims of Brown’s novel, or the earlier "non-fiction" Holy Blood, Holy Grail. Again, there is no evidence anywhere that Jesus married or impregnated Mary Magdalene, that the Gnostic gospels are more reliable than the earlier canonical gospels, that Constantine or the Council of Nicea invented Jesus’ divinity, etc. Some objected, however, and argued that there is no evidence that Jesus ever existed. The argument of Jesus’ non-existence is a favorite amongst radical skeptics, but does the evidence support it? When people demand "evidence" for Jesus’ existence, they are of course not referring to the canonical Scriptures, which have survived 2,000 years of attacks and continue to change the lives of millions. For all the talk about Christians corrupting the text throughout history and mistranslations throughout history, the evidence from studying textual criticism does not support such a notion. While it is true that no two ancient manuscripts are exactly the same, the differences in 90% of the circumstances relate to minor grammatical details. Even with the other 10%, not one major Christian teaching or doctrine is affected. Keep in mind that the first letters of the Apostle Paul were written in the late 40’s or very early 50’s. Nobody, not even most liberals, argue against the authenticity of many of Paul’s letters. The "undisputed Pauline letters" are Romans, I and II Corinthians, Galatians, Philippians, I Thessalonians and Philemon. Even assuming that those were the only "authentic" Pauline epistles, there is still proof of Paul interacting with Jesus’ contemporaries and the disciples of the gospels. For instance, in Galatians, likely Paul’s earliest letter from around the late 40’s, features an account of Paul and Peter. Peter was, of course, one of Jesus’ closest disciples. If Jesus was not real, was Peter not real also? Was Paul’s audience deluded not only about Jesus’ existence, but about a plethora of other apostolic and early Christian individuals as well? If this argument is followed, not only was Jesus a made up fairy tale, but so were many other individuals, something that would not have got by the original audience. Some people are not satisfied with the Biblical evidence and want first century extra-Biblical references to Jesus. The fact is that are there at least six extra-Biblical testimonies to Jesus’ existence. The most famous and controversial of these is from the first century Jewish historian Josephus. The citation from Josephus is controversial because in one passage known as the "Testimonium Flavianum" (Ant. 18.3.3) contains language that appears to be much too favorable towards Jesus for a first century non-Christian Jew. However, even when you remove the possible interpolations, the passage still reads as follows: About this time there lived Jesus, a wise man. For he was one who wrought surprising feats and was a teacher of such people as accept the truth gladly. He won over many Jews and many of the Greeks. When Pilate, upon hearing him accused by men of the highest standing amongst us, had condemned him to be crucified, those who had in the first place come to love him did not give up their affection for him. And the tribe of the Christians, so called after him, has still to this day not disappeared.

Here is an extra-Biblical first century source that affirms, (1) Jesus existed, (2) He did "great" things, (3) He was executed under Pilate, and (4) He had a known group of followers who were being killed for their faith. Even aside from the Testimonium Flavianum, there is still another reference to the historical Jesus from Josephus found in Antiquities 20.9.1 which references the trial of James, the brother of Jesus who was the leader of the early Jerusalem church. The "Jesus Never Existed" crowd would like for you to believe that these citations were all Christian corruptions, but aside from the controversial lines of the Testimonium Flavianum which I have omitted, the majority of scholars do not question the authenticity of these references. There are several other commonly cited sources as well which will be briefly cited. One of the most reliable is from the very early second century Roman historian Tacticus (Annals, 15.44). He was a vehement critic of Christianity and places widespread Christian persecution as early as the Roman emperor Nero (37–68AD). An undisputed paragraph from his Annals reads: But not all the relief that could come from man, not all the bounties that the prince could bestow, nor all the atonements which could be presented to the gods, availed to relieve Nero from the infamy of being believed to have ordered the conflagration, the fire of Rome. Hence to suppress the rumor, he falsely charged with the guilt, and punished Christians, who were hated for their enormities. Christus, the founder of the name, was put to death by Pontius Pilate, procurator of Judea in the reign of Tiberius: but the pernicious superstition, repressed for a time broke out again, not only through Judea, where the mischief originated, but through the city of Rome also, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their center and become popular. Accordingly, an arrest was first made of all who pleaded guilty; then, upon their information, an immense multitude was convicted, not so much of the crime of firing the city, as of hatred against mankind.

If Christianity was just based on rumors and lies, certainly Tacticus, who claims Christians practiced "pernicious superstition," would have pointed this out or at least argued in favor of such a theory. Nevertheless, Tacticus asserts that Christianity was widespread by the time of Nero, which assumes that the movement must be older than Nero if it had any time to develop into such a recognizable entity. He affirms that "Christus" was put to death by Pilate. There are no known textual variants of Tacticus that omit this account. Other historical writings and claims of Tacticus are rarely if ever called into dispute. Doubt can only be cast on this reference to the historical Jesus if one purposely blinds him or herself to the evidence. Pliny the Younger, a late first century and early second century figure who was also governor of Bithynia, is also a commonly referred to extra-Biblical source pointing towards a real existence of Jesus (Pliny, X. 96). In one of his correspondences with the Roman emperor Trajan, Pliny details Christian practices and explains his method of forcing Christians to curse and renounce Christ. Before describing means of punishment, Pliny had this to say about Christian practices: They affirmed, however, that the whole of their guilt, or their error, was, that they were in the habit of meeting on a certain fixed day before it was light, when they sang in alternate verse a hymn to Christ as to a god, and bound themselves to a solemn oath, not to any wicked deeds, but never to commit any fraud, theft, adultery, never to falsify their word, not to deny a trust when they should be called upon to deliver it up.

This correspondence can probably be dated to around 110AD. Here it is seen that Christians were meeting together on a "fixed day" which agrees with the book of Acts, that believers were worshipping Christ like a god (so much for the idea that a divine Christ was invented much later or at the Council of Nicea) and had a committed moral code. Later in this section, Pliny details how he interrogated Christians and put them to death if they did not renounce their faith. The extra-Biblical evidence of Christian martyrdom at the hands of the Romans goes back even forty years earlier based on Tacticus’ citing of persecution under Nero in the early sixties. It would indeed be peculiar that so many people were sacrificing their lives, less then a generation after Christ’s death and resurrection, for something that they did not truly believe in beyond a shadow of a doubt. Of course, the common counter argument is that these early believers were just morons or deluded about the historical Jesus and His death and resurrection. It is curious that skeptics almost 2,000 years after the fact are more well informed than the contemporaries of Jesus’ own generation who were sacrificing everything for something they were unsure or incorrect about. There are other extra-Biblical sources as well. One is an early second century playwright Lucian who derides a follower of Christ in one of his plays and cites Christian belief about the crucifixion. If Lucian was himself convinced that the entire faith was founded on someone who wasn’t even real, he certainly would have cited that somewhere as it would have made his satire all the more powerful. Another reference point is a first century Hellenistic historian Thallus who alludes to the darkness that followed the crucifixion. Another possible reference to Christ comes from Suetonius who makes reference to Jews who were expelled from Rome on account of the "instigation of Chrestus." Chrestus was a common misspelling of Jesus’ name in some circles. This is a less likely, but plausible source. If Suetonius wasn’t referring to Christ, it’s not known who he was referring to with any certainty. Thus Jesus is still a reasonable candidate. Less important examples can also be given, but the information above suffices for a compelling case for the existence for a Jesus. Skeptics still object and want to know why there wouldn’t be even more references to Jesus in antiquity if He was so important. In reality, what we do have is more than sufficient and exceeds most other historical figures of that day. Furthermore, there was not much interest in writing about what was perceived in the first century as a minor religious figure who was an executed criminal. Even the gospels and book of Acts contain examples of the dismissive attitude the secular authorities held towards the person of Jesus and the Christian movement. Quite frankly, most in the first half of the first century did not consider Jesus important enough to write up biographies about. Also, there were not many comprehensive historical works being written during and immediately after the time of Christ. In the instances where there were significant works being published, such as Philo’s philosophical works, musings about Jesus would have been out of place. However, as earlier stated, Jesus is cited in one of the most important first century historical writings by Josephus. When one takes all of this into account, having up to six early extra-Biblical sources of Jesus is most impressive. To argue that all of these extra-Biblical sources are "forgeries" takes imaginative leaps and can only be rooted in a strong bias. Of course, the New Testament Biblical documents are good sources themselves and those go back as early as the late forties or early fifties with Paul’s writings. To claim that the person of Jesus was just a made up hoax that was believed by thousands and thousands across the entire known Roman world only half a generation after Christ’s death would be most fantastic indeed. Skeptics and critics of the Scriptures and theism in general like to fashion themselves as extremely thoughtful people with a good handle on the facts. Just look at the titles they bestow upon themselves: "rationalists" and "free-thinkers" being two of the most prominently used, whereas Christians are just silly fools who believe in fairy tales. But when looking at the evidence regarding a historical Jesus, the Christ-deniers are being anything but rational and free-thinking and instead are only reaching their conclusions because of biased presuppositions and a priori assumptions that Jesus never existed.

As Jack Webb said on Dragnet, "All we want are the facts, ma’am." The Christ deniers and The Da Vinci Code enthusiasts both have one thing in common: they are not concerned at all about the facts and will stop at nothing to rewrite history. How convenient that they feebly attempt to accuse their detractors of doing the same. The facts, however, speak for themselves, and they speak very loudly in defense of a very real Jesus."

I’m just going to answer a couple of this guy’s questions since he doesn’t understand truly the word. First the guy is looking at the Scriptures wrong. In order to understand what God’s word is telling us and for us to be taught, we have to accept the Holy Spirit in us to be our teacher. He certainly doesn’t have that and God makes it very clear of that.

Another thing Mr. Harris is wrong about “What about a cure for cancer? Millions of people are dying horribly from cancer at this very moment, many of them children. When we fully understand the biology of cancer, this understanding will surely be reducible to a few pages of text. Why aren't these pages, or anything remotely like them, found in the Bible? The Bible is a very big book.”

I’ve been in the medical field for 20+ years, I have worked with doctors, talked with doctors all over the country. Let me say this and believe what you will but I can honestly say I know the truth. There is a cure for cancer and most of all, there is a cure for AIDS. I will give one little information about the cure for AIDS but then that is all I will say on that matter. The cure for AIDS is called “Ozone” okay. They found the cure many years ago when doctors would go over to these different countries and basically infect these innoncet people with the AIDS virus so basically they could find a cure. They found a cure and they keep it for themselves and for the GOV. I know it’s hard to believe but trust me, it’s true. I have seen it for myself because I have gone to court based on similar situation that have happened to me where they had a cure for me and didn’t give, so instead tried killing me and when we took them to court, all my medical papers were burned so that a Matthew Jacob * never exsisted in their Hospital. So, I know of many cures that are out there, that is why I don’t get my hopes up for the cure to come out for kidney failure which I have because of this doctor who I did talk to later on and said I forgive him.

That being said, let me share another story that I am going to send to this man as well who wrote this. Since I was 17 months old I needed a shot called MMR Vaccine. My parents went home to discuss it amoung each other and God spoke to them while they were scared and didn’t know what to do. God told them 3 times not to give it. My parents went back to the hospital which then they told the doctor that they aren’t going to give it. Well, the doctor showed papers saying that if I didn’t get the MMR Vaccine, that I couldn’t go to school when I got older. So, my parents said yes to the Vaccine of course because they didn’t know what we know now, that you can still go to school. Well, after I received the MMR Vaccine, I broke out in a 105 TEMP. I had a rash from head to toe and I could not move. I was rushed to the hospital and the doctor wrote down after looking me over, that I was a spoiled rotten brat who knew how to bring a fever on to get my own way. Now I was 20 months old and can do tricks like this, I wish at 23 years old now, I could do the same. Anyway, just from the Vaccine, I then went on to have German Measles. To make this story short as possible, from 20 months old, I’ve had brain seisures where one lasted 18 minutes and they pronounced me brain dead. I’ve had gangrene of the feet, legs, brain and kidneys. I also had e coli, sepsis, salmonella poisoning all at once. Now how did I get all three? Well, it came from being fed through an IV. I also went on to have Hemolytic uremic syndrome also known as HUS which at that time only 1 child lived from in the US and that child was me. I went on to also have JRA which I was put into traction which is therapy 20 hours a day and the other 4 you are to sleep. I also have had a stroke and went from 120 pounds to below 50 in a month. In these hospitals I have been at in PA (Not going to give any names up for legal reasons) doctors have written books about me, books I haven’t read because I already know what it’s about. These doctors have put down in medical history that I have been pronounced dead 6 times. I have come off kidney dialysis twice already in my life through the grace of God and again I challage anyone to look up kidney failure and you will find that once your kidneys don’t work, they can never work again unless you live on a machine or get a transplant. Well, I still have my kidneys and can say that they have come back twice, longest time lasting 10+ years.

Also remember the story that I have witnessed to others here and others outside this board.

Okay, I was 7 years old and I was in a coma. My organs were shutting down and there was nothing more the doctors could do. I remember over hearing the doctor say to my parents "It would be best if you bring your whole family in because tomorrow (Which was Easter) your son will have passed. Now it was weird because even though I was in a coma, I could over hear this and I began to Pray in my head for the Lord to save me. I kept saying to the Lord that I was to young to die and so on. Now, they didn't have me on no medication because they had stopped everything a week before when I went into the coma to see how the body would re-act. The very next day was Easter and I remember opening up my eyes and in the room was my whole family. So, we decided to go down stairs to the cafeteria to celebrate and have some food. So, my family wheeled me down and there was about 100 people just walking around, you know other kids parents and so on. The hospital by the way is in Delaware if you are wondering for any reason. Anyway, so my Mom, Grandmom and Aunt were sitting about 5 feet away from me talking and my Grandpop, Uncle and Dad were moving the cars and re-parking them. Now you know in a movie where when you pause the movie, everything freezes and stops? Well, I went to turn around in my wheelchair and say something to my Mom and everyone in the hospital who had just been walking, talking, eating and what not, just froze and stopped dead in their tracks. I turned back around and I called for my Mom but even she was still like everyone else. I was the only one that could move out of all those people. So I went to turn back around and when I did, right in front of me was Jesus. Let me tell you, it's the most beautiful site you will ever see! The scripture is true when it talks about Jesus coming and when He does you will know it is He that has come. Well, I can't tell you his hair because He has a very long white I don't want to call it a coat obviously but like Sheep's clothing as they say. It was draped over His head and it was all the way down to His feet. All around Him it was all lit up, just around Him, like He was glowing and couldn't be harmed in anyway. Well, when my eyes met with His eyes my whole body felt for the first time (I've had medical problems since I was 20 months old) my whole body felt at peace, my body felt rested and I to felt like nothing around me could harm me. He has the most beautiful brown eyes, eyes you will never see here on earth. He was smiling at me and He motioned with His hands turned up side down for me to stand up. I said to Him, I can't I'm scared and I said that because I had never worked before. Jesus just kept smiling at me and I knew then when I continued to look into His eyes that I nothing to be scared about and He wanted me to not only trust Him as I always did but have Faith. So, next thing I know, I stood up out of that wheelchair and started walking. I looked back once more at Jesus and there He was with His hands still out to me and smiling to me. I walked back to my wheelchair sat back down, He was gone and all the people started walking again. My Mom came running over to me asking me if I was alright because not only did she see me walk but she said I was looking up smiling and was talking to Jesus because I kept saying His name the whole time. 

Now what did He look like per-say? You know if you are Blessed enough to see Jesus while your on Earth or some day in Heaven, you can't put a "title" of what He looks like. You can't say "Well, He's darker skin, looking more Jewish while He has this color eyes and this hair style" because that's the answer we give here on earth to every day people. When you see Jesus, if you believe in Him, read His word, trust in Him and have Faith in Him, He to will appear to you and you to will know. When that day happens you to will not be able to explain it other then "wow" and you will feel such at peace with yourself around Him that you won't even say to yourself "Oh, so this is what He looks like" it's funny because when we go to Heaven some day, we aren't going to be thinking "I wonder when I'm going to eat, sleep or even go to the bath room" because when you are with Jesus as I was that day (Even though He is always here) everything else around you will stop, freeze and nothing will matter but you and Jesus. 

I also heard when I was 13 years old music in Heaven. I remember being in my room, I had just turned off my TV, my parents were sleeping and all of a sudden I heard the most beautiful music you could ever hear. The type of music you could live for 100+ years and never hear anything like it here on earth. It was a bunch of Harps being played and again you just felt like you were right there and the peace I felt with in, was the same feeling I had when I saw Jesus. 

I was also shown Hell years later when my Faith at one time was falling and my belief was failing. As much as I will never forget that site either and the pit that I was in, nothing, no one and not even the devil himself will ever remove me from being a child of God. 

That is why I said no matter what anyone says here or in this world, God has shown me MANY things when my attention, heart, soul and spirit was on Him. I can tell you my medical history that would make your head spin. Doctors all over the world have written books about me and have re-written medical history in itself. Like I said, it will make your head spin to the point where I have had 3 people do investigation work on me because they didn't believe ANYTHING I said about my medical history when asked. I didn't know what they were doing, only time I found out is when they came back crying and apologizing for not trusting me and believing me. LOL it's a lot to taken in really but it was chosen for me for a reason and I thank God for it. Some time if you'd like Infernal_Lawyer I will share some other times with you the Lord has spoken to me as well. Amazing times and I can't thank the Lord enough for the Blessing of showing Himself to me. Praise the Lord for such a wonderful God I have!

Also, my Uncle had a brain tumor last year. He saw 4 specialst here in PA and one in TX. He needed surgery on July 26th which from April until July, every month they took MRI’s. The tumor continued to grow and he was on seizure medication because the tumor gave him a very bad seizure. The day of the surgery they took one last MRI to see if they had to do the surgery any differently and the tumor was gone! They ran tests on him for the next 24 hours because they had never seen such a Miracle before and that’s the only thing they could say, it was a Miracle from God.

In closing, I also recommend a book by David Roberts, R.A. Presented by Robert Browning called The Siege And Destruction Of Jerusalem.

Where one of the most if not THE famous Jewish man Flavius Josephus did not believe Christ was who He said was but witnessed what had happened to His people in Jerusalem and what Christ preached about. Another backing up what he wrote about. http://www.preteristarchive.bravepages.com/ChurchHistory/holford_destruction-jerusalem.html

http://aurebesh.io.infoax.org/en/The+Bible+and+history

There's some stuff that may be useful in the link above. Can you clarify your comment on the Bible in the first post in this thread? It definitely sounds interesting.

Mr. Harris won’t understand Scripture no matter how much he reads unless he has been Baptized by the Holy Spirit and accepts Salvation which God gives Him the gift to receive, he just has to accept it. 1 John 2:27-28 “27But you have received the Holy Spirit,[e] and he lives within you, so you don't need anyone to teach you what is true. For the Spirit teaches you all things, and what he teaches is true--it is not a lie. So continue in what he has taught you, and continue to live in Christ.     28And now, dear children, continue to live in fellowship with Christ so that when he returns, you will be full of courage and not shrink back from him in shame. 29Since we know that God is always right, we also know that all who do what is right are his children.”

1 Corinthians 2 “0But we know these things because God has revealed them to us by his Spirit, and his Spirit searches out everything and shows us even God's deep secrets. 11No one can know what anyone else is really thinking except that person alone, and no one can know God's thoughts except God's own Spirit. 12And God has actually given us his Spirit (not the world's spirit) so we can know the wonderful things God has freely given us. 13When we tell you this, we do not use words of human wisdom. We speak words given to us by the Spirit, using the Spirit's words to explain spiritual truths.[e] 14But people who aren't Christians can't understand these truths from God's Spirit. It all sounds foolish to them because only those who have the Spirit can understand what the Spirit means. 15We who have the Spirit understand these things, but others can't understand us at all. 16How could they? For,         "Who can know what the Lord is thinking?        Who can give him counsel?"[f]     But we can understand these things, for we have the mind of Christ.”

Now onto the sickness in this world. First we have to remember that there is still sin in this world until the second coming of Christ where He will make everything whole and perfect. If there was no sickness on Earth, then everything would be perfect and that would be no need for Heaven or a Saviour. Jesus makes it very clear in His word, in Heaven, there is no more sickness, pain, suffering, tears and anything else that people suffer today.

But why we have what we have today:

Deuteronomy 28 Blessings for Obedience  1"If you fully obey the LORD your God by keeping all the commands I am giving you today, the LORD your God will exalt you above all the nations of the world. 2You will experience all these blessings if you obey the LORD your God:         3     You will be blessed in your towns and in the country.     4     You will be blessed with many children and productive fields.         You will be blessed with fertile herds and flocks.     5     You will be blessed with baskets overflowing with fruit, and with kneading bowls filled with bread.     6     You will be blessed wherever you go, both in coming and in going.     7"The LORD will conquer your enemies when they attack you. They will attack you from one direction, but they will scatter from you in seven!     8"The LORD will bless everything you do and will fill your storehouses with grain. The LORD your God will bless you in the land he is giving you.     9"If you obey the commands of the LORD your God and walk in his ways, the LORD will establish you as his holy people as he solemnly promised to do. 10Then all the nations of the world will see that you are a people claimed by the LORD, and they will stand in awe of you.     11"The LORD will give you an abundance of good things in the land he swore to give your ancestors--many children, numerous livestock, and abundant crops. 12The LORD will send rain at the proper time from his rich treasury in the heavens to bless all the work you do. You will lend to many nations, but you will never need to borrow from them. 13If you listen to these commands of the LORD your God and carefully obey them, the LORD will make you the head and not the tail, and you will always have the upper hand. 14You must not turn away from any of the commands I am giving you today to follow after other gods and worship them.     Curses for Disobedience  15"But if you refuse to listen to the LORD your God and do not obey all the commands and laws I am giving you today, all these curses will come and overwhelm you:         16     You will be cursed in your towns and in the country.     17     You will be cursed with baskets empty of fruit, and with kneading bowls empty of bread.     18     You will be cursed with few children and barren fields.         You will be cursed with infertile herds and flocks.     19     You will be cursed wherever you go, both in coming and in going.     20"The LORD himself will send against you curses, confusion, and disillusionment in everything you do, until at last you are completely destroyed for doing evil and forsaking me. 21The LORD will send diseases among you until none of you are left in the land you are about to enter and occupy. 22The LORD will strike you with wasting disease, fever, and inflammation, with scorching heat and drought, and with blight and mildew. These devastations will pursue you until you die. 23The skies above will be as unyielding as bronze, and the earth beneath will be as hard as iron. 24The LORD will turn your rain into sand and dust, and it will pour down from the sky until you are destroyed.     25"The LORD will cause you to be defeated by your enemies. You will attack your enemies from one direction, but you will scatter from them in seven! You will be an object of horror to all the kingdoms of the earth. 26Your dead bodies will be food for the birds and wild animals, and no one will be there to chase them away.     27"The LORD will afflict you with the boils of Egypt and with tumors, scurvy, and the itch, from which you cannot be cured. 28The LORD will strike you with madness, blindness, and panic. 29You will grope around in broad daylight, just like a blind person groping in the darkness, and you will not succeed at anything you do. You will be oppressed and robbed continually, and no one will come to save you.     30"You will be engaged to a woman, but another man will ravish her. You will build a house, but someone else will live in it. You will plant a vineyard, but you will never enjoy its fruit. 31Your ox will be butchered before your eyes, but you won't get a single bite of the meat. Your donkey will be driven away, never to be returned. Your sheep will be given to your enemies, and no one will be there to help you. 32You will watch as your sons and daughters are taken away as slaves. Your heart will break as you long for them, but nothing you do will help. 33A foreign nation you have never heard about will eat the crops you worked so hard to grow. You will suffer under constant oppression and harsh treatment. 34You will go mad because of all the tragedy around you. 35The LORD will cover you from head to foot with incurable boils.     36"The LORD will exile you and the king you crowned to a nation unknown to you and your ancestors. Then in exile you will worship gods of wood and stone! 37You will become an object of horror, a proverb and a mockery among all the nations to which the LORD sends you.     38"You will plant much but harvest little, for locusts will eat your crops. 39You will plant vineyards and care for them, but you will not drink the wine or eat the grapes, for worms will destroy the vines. 40You will grow olive trees throughout your land, but you will never use the olive oil, for the trees will drop the fruit before it is ripe. 41You will have sons and daughters, but you will not keep them, for they will be led away into captivity. 42Swarms of insects will destroy your trees and crops. 43The foreigners living among you will become stronger and stronger, while you become weaker and weaker. 44They will lend money to you, not you to them. They will be the head, and you will be the tail!     45"If you refuse to listen to the LORD your God and to obey the commands and laws he has given you, all these curses will pursue and overtake you until you are destroyed. 46These horrors will serve as a sign and warning among you and your descendants forever. 47Because you have not served the LORD your God with joy and enthusiasm for the abundant benefits you have received, 48you will serve your enemies whom the LORD will send against you. You will be left hungry, thirsty, naked, and lacking in everything. They will oppress you harshly until you are destroyed.     49"The LORD will bring a distant nation against you from the end of the earth, and it will swoop down on you like an eagle. It is a nation whose language you do not understand, 50a fierce and heartless nation that shows no respect for the old and no pity for the young. 51Its armies will devour your livestock and crops, and you will starve to death. They will leave you no grain, new wine, olive oil, calves, or lambs, bringing about your destruction. 52They will lay siege to your cities until all the fortified walls in your land--the walls you trusted to protect you--are knocked down. They will attack all the towns in the land the LORD your God has given you. 53The siege will be so severe that you will eat the flesh of your own sons and daughters, whom the LORD your God has given you. 54The most tenderhearted man among you will have no compassion for his own brother, his beloved wife, and his surviving children. 55He will refuse to give them a share of the flesh he is devouring--the flesh of one of his own children--because he has nothing else to eat during the siege that your enemy will inflict on all your towns. 56The most tender and delicate woman among you--so delicate she would not so much as touch her feet to the ground--will be cruel to the husband she loves and to her own son or daughter. 57She will hide from them the afterbirth and the new baby she has borne, so that she herself can secretly eat them. She will have nothing else to eat during the siege and terrible distress that your enemy will inflict on all your towns.     58"If you refuse to obey all the terms of this law that are written in this book, and if you do not fear the glorious and awesome name of the LORD your God, 59then the LORD will overwhelm both you and your children with indescribable plagues. These plagues will be intense and without relief, making you miserable and unbearably sick. 60He will bring against you all the diseases of Egypt that you feared so much, and they will claim you. 61The LORD will bring against you every sickness and plague there is, even those not mentioned in this Book of the Law, until you are destroyed. 62Though you are as numerous as the stars in the sky, few of you will be left because you would not listen to the LORD your God.     63"Just as the LORD has found great pleasure in helping you to prosper and multiply, the LORD will find pleasure in destroying you, until you disappear from the land you are about to enter and occupy. 64For the LORD will scatter you among all the nations from one end of the earth to the other. There you will worship foreign gods that neither you nor your ancestors have known, gods made of wood and stone! 65There among those nations you will find no place of security and rest. And the LORD will cause your heart to tremble, your eyesight to fail, and your soul to despair. 66Your lives will hang in doubt. You will live night and day in fear, with no reason to believe that you will see the morning light. 67In the morning you will say, If only it were night!' And in the evening you will say,If only it were morning!' You will say this because of your terror at the awesome horrors you see around you. 68Then the LORD will send you back to Egypt in ships, a journey I promised you would never again make. There you will offer to sell yourselves to your enemies as slaves, but no one will want to buy you."

Second, to go against what Mr. Harris had to say:

http://www.lewrockwell.com/barnwell/barnwell57.html

"My column last week debunking some of the more controversial claims of The Da Vinci Code received a great deal of response. Most individuals agree that the facts are simply not there to support the claims of Brown’s novel, or the earlier "non-fiction" Holy Blood, Holy Grail. Again, there is no evidence anywhere that Jesus married or impregnated Mary Magdalene, that the Gnostic gospels are more reliable than the earlier canonical gospels, that Constantine or the Council of Nicea invented Jesus’ divinity, etc. Some objected, however, and argued that there is no evidence that Jesus ever existed. The argument of Jesus’ non-existence is a favorite amongst radical skeptics, but does the evidence support it? When people demand "evidence" for Jesus’ existence, they are of course not referring to the canonical Scriptures, which have survived 2,000 years of attacks and continue to change the lives of millions. For all the talk about Christians corrupting the text throughout history and mistranslations throughout history, the evidence from studying textual criticism does not support such a notion. While it is true that no two ancient manuscripts are exactly the same, the differences in 90% of the circumstances relate to minor grammatical details. Even with the other 10%, not one major Christian teaching or doctrine is affected. Keep in mind that the first letters of the Apostle Paul were written in the late 40’s or very early 50’s. Nobody, not even most liberals, argue against the authenticity of many of Paul’s letters. The "undisputed Pauline letters" are Romans, I and II Corinthians, Galatians, Philippians, I Thessalonians and Philemon. Even assuming that those were the only "authentic" Pauline epistles, there is still proof of Paul interacting with Jesus’ contemporaries and the disciples of the gospels. For instance, in Galatians, likely Paul’s earliest letter from around the late 40’s, features an account of Paul and Peter. Peter was, of course, one of Jesus’ closest disciples. If Jesus was not real, was Peter not real also? Was Paul’s audience deluded not only about Jesus’ existence, but about a plethora of other apostolic and early Christian individuals as well? If this argument is followed, not only was Jesus a made up fairy tale, but so were many other individuals, something that would not have got by the original audience. Some people are not satisfied with the Biblical evidence and want first century extra-Biblical references to Jesus. The fact is that are there at least six extra-Biblical testimonies to Jesus’ existence. The most famous and controversial of these is from the first century Jewish historian Josephus. The citation from Josephus is controversial because in one passage known as the "Testimonium Flavianum" (Ant. 18.3.3) contains language that appears to be much too favorable towards Jesus for a first century non-Christian Jew. However, even when you remove the possible interpolations, the passage still reads as follows: About this time there lived Jesus, a wise man. For he was one who wrought surprising feats and was a teacher of such people as accept the truth gladly. He won over many Jews and many of the Greeks. When Pilate, upon hearing him accused by men of the highest standing amongst us, had condemned him to be crucified, those who had in the first place come to love him did not give up their affection for him. And the tribe of the Christians, so called after him, has still to this day not disappeared.

Here is an extra-Biblical first century source that affirms, (1) Jesus existed, (2) He did "great" things, (3) He was executed under Pilate, and (4) He had a known group of followers who were being killed for their faith. Even aside from the Testimonium Flavianum, there is still another reference to the historical Jesus from Josephus found in Antiquities 20.9.1 which references the trial of James, the brother of Jesus who was the leader of the early Jerusalem church. The "Jesus Never Existed" crowd would like for you to believe that these citations were all Christian corruptions, but aside from the controversial lines of the Testimonium Flavianum which I have omitted, the majority of scholars do not question the authenticity of these references. There are several other commonly cited sources as well which will be briefly cited. One of the most reliable is from the very early second century Roman historian Tacticus (Annals, 15.44). He was a vehement critic of Christianity and places widespread Christian persecution as early as the Roman emperor Nero (37–68AD). An undisputed paragraph from his Annals reads: But not all the relief that could come from man, not all the bounties that the prince could bestow, nor all the atonements which could be presented to the gods, availed to relieve Nero from the infamy of being believed to have ordered the conflagration, the fire of Rome. Hence to suppress the rumor, he falsely charged with the guilt, and punished Christians, who were hated for their enormities. Christus, the founder of the name, was put to death by Pontius Pilate, procurator of Judea in the reign of Tiberius: but the pernicious superstition, repressed for a time broke out again, not only through Judea, where the mischief originated, but through the city of Rome also, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their center and become popular. Accordingly, an arrest was first made of all who pleaded guilty; then, upon their information, an immense multitude was convicted, not so much of the crime of firing the city, as of hatred against mankind.

If Christianity was just based on rumors and lies, certainly Tacticus, who claims Christians practiced "pernicious superstition," would have pointed this out or at least argued in favor of such a theory. Nevertheless, Tacticus asserts that Christianity was widespread by the time of Nero, which assumes that the movement must be older than Nero if it had any time to develop into such a recognizable entity. He affirms that "Christus" was put to death by Pilate. There are no known textual variants of Tacticus that omit this account. Other historical writings and claims of Tacticus are rarely if ever called into dispute. Doubt can only be cast on this reference to the historical Jesus if one purposely blinds him or herself to the evidence. Pliny the Younger, a late first century and early second century figure who was also governor of Bithynia, is also a commonly referred to extra-Biblical source pointing towards a real existence of Jesus (Pliny, X. 96). In one of his correspondences with the Roman emperor Trajan, Pliny details Christian practices and explains his method of forcing Christians to curse and renounce Christ. Before describing means of punishment, Pliny had this to say about Christian practices: They affirmed, however, that the whole of their guilt, or their error, was, that they were in the habit of meeting on a certain fixed day before it was light, when they sang in alternate verse a hymn to Christ as to a god, and bound themselves to a solemn oath, not to any wicked deeds, but never to commit any fraud, theft, adultery, never to falsify their word, not to deny a trust when they should be called upon to deliver it up.

This correspondence can probably be dated to around 110AD. Here it is seen that Christians were meeting together on a "fixed day" which agrees with the book of Acts, that believers were worshipping Christ like a god (so much for the idea that a divine Christ was invented much later or at the Council of Nicea) and had a committed moral code. Later in this section, Pliny details how he interrogated Christians and put them to death if they did not renounce their faith. The extra-Biblical evidence of Christian martyrdom at the hands of the Romans goes back even forty years earlier based on Tacticus’ citing of persecution under Nero in the early sixties. It would indeed be peculiar that so many people were sacrificing their lives, less then a generation after Christ’s death and resurrection, for something that they did not truly believe in beyond a shadow of a doubt. Of course, the common counter argument is that these early believers were just morons or deluded about the historical Jesus and His death and resurrection. It is curious that skeptics almost 2,000 years after the fact are more well informed than the contemporaries of Jesus’ own generation who were sacrificing everything for something they were unsure or incorrect about. There are other extra-Biblical sources as well. One is an early second century playwright Lucian who derides a follower of Christ in one of his plays and cites Christian belief about the crucifixion. If Lucian was himself convinced that the entire faith was founded on someone who wasn’t even real, he certainly would have cited that somewhere as it would have made his satire all the more powerful. Another reference point is a first century Hellenistic historian Thallus who alludes to the darkness that followed the crucifixion. Another possible reference to Christ comes from Suetonius who makes reference to Jews who were expelled from Rome on account of the "instigation of Chrestus." Chrestus was a common misspelling of Jesus’ name in some circles. This is a less likely, but plausible source. If Suetonius wasn’t referring to Christ, it’s not known who he was referring to with any certainty. Thus Jesus is still a reasonable candidate. Less important examples can also be given, but the information above suffices for a compelling case for the existence for a Jesus. Skeptics still object and want to know why there wouldn’t be even more references to Jesus in antiquity if He was so important. In reality, what we do have is more than sufficient and exceeds most other historical figures of that day. Furthermore, there was not much interest in writing about what was perceived in the first century as a minor religious figure who was an executed criminal. Even the gospels and book of Acts contain examples of the dismissive attitude the secular authorities held towards the person of Jesus and the Christian movement. Quite frankly, most in the first half of the first century did not consider Jesus important enough to write up biographies about. Also, there were not many comprehensive historical works being written during and immediately after the time of Christ. In the instances where there were significant works being published, such as Philo’s philosophical works, musings about Jesus would have been out of place. However, as earlier stated, Jesus is cited in one of the most important first century historical writings by Josephus. When one takes all of this into account, having up to six early extra-Biblical sources of Jesus is most impressive. To argue that all of these extra-Biblical sources are "forgeries" takes imaginative leaps and can only be rooted in a strong bias. Of course, the New Testament Biblical documents are good sources themselves and those go back as early as the late forties or early fifties with Paul’s writings. To claim that the person of Jesus was just a made up hoax that was believed by thousands and thousands across the entire known Roman world only half a generation after Christ’s death would be most fantastic indeed. Skeptics and critics of the Scriptures and theism in general like to fashion themselves as extremely thoughtful people with a good handle on the facts. Just look at the titles they bestow upon themselves: "rationalists" and "free-thinkers" being two of the most prominently used, whereas Christians are just silly fools who believe in fairy tales. But when looking at the evidence regarding a historical Jesus, the Christ-deniers are being anything but rational and free-thinking and instead are only reaching their conclusions because of biased presuppositions and a priori assumptions that Jesus never existed.

As Jack Webb said on Dragnet, "All we want are the facts, ma’am." The Christ deniers and The Da Vinci Code enthusiasts both have one thing in common: they are not concerned at all about the facts and will stop at nothing to rewrite history. How convenient that they feebly attempt to accuse their detractors of doing the same. The facts, however, speak for themselves, and they speak very loudly in defense of a very real Jesus."

I’m just going to answer a couple of this guy’s questions since he doesn’t understand truly the word. First the guy is looking at the Scriptures wrong. In order to understand what God’s word is telling us and for us to be taught, we have to accept the Holy Spirit in us to be our teacher. He certainly doesn’t have that and God makes it very clear of that.

Another thing he is wrong about “What about a cure for cancer? Millions of people are dying horribly from cancer at this very moment, many of them children. When we fully understand the biology of cancer, this understanding will surely be reducible to a few pages of text. Why aren't these pages, or anything remotely like them, found in the Bible? The Bible is a very big book.”

I’ve been in the medical field for 20+ years, I have worked with doctors, talked with doctors all over the country. Let me say this and believe what you will but I can honestly say I know the truth. There is a cure for cancer and most of all, there is a cure for AIDS. I will give one little information about the cure for AIDS but then that is all I will say on that matter. The cure for AIDS is called “Ozone” okay. They found the cure many years ago when doctors would go over to these different countries and basically infect these innoncet people with the AIDS virus so basically they could find a cure. They found a cure and they keep it for themselves and for the GOV. I know it’s hard to believe but trust me, it’s true. I have seen it for myself because I have gone to court based on similar situation that have happened to me where they had a cure for me and didn’t give, so instead tried killing me and when we took them to court, all my medical papers were burned so that a Matthew Jacob * never exsisted in their Hospital. So, I know of many cures that are out there, that is why I don’t get my hopes up for the cure to come out for kidney failure which I have because of this doctor who I did talk to later on and said I forgive him.

That being said, let me share another story that I am going to send to this man as well who wrote this. Since I was 17 months old I needed a shot called MMR Vaccine. My parents went home to discuss it amoung each other and God spoke to them while they were scared and didn’t know what to do. God told them 3 times not to give it. My parents went back to the hospital which then they told the doctor that they aren’t going to give it. Well, the doctor showed papers saying that if I didn’t get the MMR Vaccine, that I couldn’t go to school when I got older. So, my parents said yes to the Vaccine of course because they didn’t know what we know now, that you can still go to school. Well, after I received the MMR Vaccine, I broke out in a 105 TEMP. I had a rash from head to toe and I could not move. I was rushed to the hospital and the doctor wrote down after looking me over, that I was a spoiled rotten brat who knew how to bring a fever on to get my own way. Now I was 20 months old and can do tricks like this, I wish at 23 years old now, I could do the same. Anyway, just from the Vaccine, I then went on to have German Measles. To make this story short as possible, from 20 months old, I’ve had brain seisures where one lasted 18 minutes and they pronounced me brain dead. I’ve had gangrene of the feet, legs, brain and kidneys. I also had e coli, sepsis, salmonella poisoning all at once. Now how did I get all three? Well, it came from being fed through an IV. I also went on to have Hemolytic uremic syndrome also known as HUS which at that time only 1 child lived from in the US and that child was me. I went on to also have JRA which I was put into traction which is therapy 20 hours a day and the other 4 you are to sleep. I also have had a stroke and went from 120 pounds to below 50 in a month. In these hospitals I have been at in PA (Not going to give any names up for legal reasons) doctors have written books about me, books I haven’t read because I already know what it’s about. These doctors have put down in medical history that I have been pronounced dead 6 times. I have come off kidney dialysis twice already in my life through the grace of God and again I challage anyone to look up kidney failure and you will find that once your kidneys don’t work, they can never work again unless you live on a machine or get a transplant. Well, I still have my kidneys and can say that they have come back twice, longest time lasting 10+ years.

Also remember the story that I have witnessed to others here and others outside this board.

Okay, I was 7 years old and I was in a coma. My organs were shutting down and there was nothing more the doctors could do. I remember over hearing the doctor say to my parents "It would be best if you bring your whole family in because tomorrow (Which was Easter) your son will have passed. Now it was weird because even though I was in a coma, I could over hear this and I began to Pray in my head for the Lord to save me. I kept saying to the Lord that I was to young to die and so on. Now, they didn't have me on no medication because they had stopped everything a week before when I went into the coma to see how the body would re-act. The very next day was Easter and I remember opening up my eyes and in the room was my whole family. So, we decided to go down stairs to the cafeteria to celebrate and have some food. So, my family wheeled me down and there was about 100 people just walking around, you know other kids parents and so on. The hospital by the way is in Delaware if you are wondering for any reason. Anyway, so my Mom, Grandmom and Aunt were sitting about 5 feet away from me talking and my Grandpop, Uncle and Dad were moving the cars and re-parking them. Now you know in a movie where when you pause the movie, everything freezes and stops? Well, I went to turn around in my wheelchair and say something to my Mom and everyone in the hospital who had just been walking, talking, eating and what not, just froze and stopped dead in their tracks. I turned back around and I called for my Mom but even she was still like everyone else. I was the only one that could move out of all those people. So I went to turn back around and when I did, right in front of me was Jesus. Let me tell you, it's the most beautiful site you will ever see! The scripture is true when it talks about Jesus coming and when He does you will know it is He that has come. Well, I can't tell you his hair because He has a very long white I don't want to call it a coat obviously but like Sheep's clothing as they say. It was draped over His head and it was all the way down to His feet. All around Him it was all lit up, just around Him, like He was glowing and couldn't be harmed in anyway. Well, when my eyes met with His eyes my whole body felt for the first time (I've had medical problems since I was 20 months old) my whole body felt at peace, my body felt rested and I to felt like nothing around me could harm me. He has the most beautiful brown eyes, eyes you will never see here on earth. He was smiling at me and He motioned with His hands turned up side down for me to stand up. I said to Him, I can't I'm scared and I said that because I had never worked before. Jesus just kept smiling at me and I knew then when I continued to look into His eyes that I nothing to be scared about and He wanted me to not only trust Him as I always did but have Faith. So, next thing I know, I stood up out of that wheelchair and started walking. I looked back once more at Jesus and there He was with His hands still out to me and smiling to me. I walked back to my wheelchair sat back down, He was gone and all the people started walking again. My Mom came running over to me asking me if I was alright because not only did she see me walk but she said I was looking up smiling and was talking to Jesus because I kept saying His name the whole time. 

Now what did He look like per-say? You know if you are Blessed enough to see Jesus while your on Earth or some day in Heaven, you can't put a "title" of what He looks like. You can't say "Well, He's darker skin, looking more Jewish while He has this color eyes and this hair style" because that's the answer we give here on earth to every day people. When you see Jesus, if you believe in Him, read His word, trust in Him and have Faith in Him, He to will appear to you and you to will know. When that day happens you to will not be able to explain it other then "wow" and you will feel such at peace with yourself around Him that you won't even say to yourself "Oh, so this is what He looks like" it's funny because when we go to Heaven some day, we aren't going to be thinking "I wonder when I'm going to eat, sleep or even go to the bath room" because when you are with Jesus as I was that day (Even though He is always here) everything else around you will stop, freeze and nothing will matter but you and Jesus. 

I also heard when I was 13 years old music in Heaven. I remember being in my room, I had just turned off my TV, my parents were sleeping and all of a sudden I heard the most beautiful music you could ever hear. The type of music you could live for 100+ years and never hear anything like it here on earth. It was a bunch of Harps being played and again you just felt like you were right there and the peace I felt with in, was the same feeling I had when I saw Jesus. 

I was also shown Hell years later when my Faith at one time was falling and my belief was failing. As much as I will never forget that site either and the pit that I was in, nothing, no one and not even the devil himself will ever remove me from being a child of God. 

That is why I said no matter what anyone says here or in this world, God has shown me MANY things when my attention, heart, soul and spirit was on Him. I can tell you my medical history that would make your head spin. Doctors all over the world have written books about me and have re-written medical history in itself. Like I said, it will make your head spin to the point where I have had 3 people do investigation work on me because they didn't believe ANYTHING I said about my medical history when asked. I didn't know what they were doing, only time I found out is when they came back crying and apologizing for not trusting me and believing me. LOL it's a lot to taken in really but it was chosen for me for a reason and I thank God for it. Some time if you'd like Infernal_Lawyer I will share some other times with you the Lord has spoken to me as well. Amazing times and I can't thank the Lord enough for the Blessing of showing Himself to me. Praise the Lord for such a wonderful God I have!

Also, my Uncle had a brain tumor last year. He saw 4 specialst here in PA and one in TX. He needed surgery on July 26th which from April until July, every month they took MRI’s. The tumor continued to grow and he was on seizure medication because the tumor gave him a very bad seizure. The day of the surgery they took one last MRI to see if they had to do the surgery any differently and the tumor was gone! They ran tests on him for the next 24 hours because they had never seen such a Miracle before and that’s the only thing they could say, it was a Miracle from God.

In closing, I also recommend a book by David Roberts, R.A. Presented by Robert Browning called The Siege And Destruction Of Jerusalem.

Where one of the most if not THE famous Jewish man Flavius Josephus did not believe Christ was who He said was but witnessed what had happened to His people in Jerusalem and what Christ preached about. Another backing up what he wrote about. http://www.preteristarchive.bravepages.com/ChurchHistory/holford_destruction-jerusalem.html

I just want to add this little point: that I was an agnostic (open to Christian belief) until the Christian Right started trying to push people around. "Do this...but don't do that." Politicians associated with this faction are just as corrupted as any politician stereotype. As a result of their words and actions, I see that these theologies, Christian and Muslim, unlike self-sufficient belief systems like Judaism, cannot leave others be. They either must convert or kill but never fully accept or simply ignore. I was raised a Catholic but it took Dr. James Dobson and his ilk to make me an aetheist.

Very interesting article. The only flaw that I see in it is your initial assumption: "We agree that to be a real Christian is to believe that all other faiths are in error and profoundly so." I consider myself Christian, yet I do not in any way agree with this statement and I know many others who share my opinion. It is possible to recognize that the Bible, whether initially imperfect or transformed from its original state over the last 2000 years, is flawed, and still believe in its main tenets - mainly that Jesus was divine, and that if we are relatively good people we will be rewarded. Now, I recognize that you regard Jesus' divinity as somewhat suspect (which is highly understandable), but as suspect as it may be, it can never be irrefutably disproven. I choose to believe (as Albert Camus advocated in much of his literature) because it brings meaning to my life. Whether Jesus' divinity (or any of the teachings of any religion) are absolutely true is irrelevant - the only thing that really matters is individual truth.

Oh, and by the way, I believe that if you are a generally good person, you will end up in heaven, regardless of whether or not you are an atheist.

I respect a decision to be an atheist, though I cannot say I agree. I fear that perhaps the argument presented is a bit short-sighted on how exactly Christianity can be interpreted. I myself, perhaps in a heretical sort of way, do not feel that the Bible was written by man and is therefore fallible. I believe it is the Good Book, not the infallible one. I also feel that love is the primary action Christians should take; an ideal which Christians daily fail to achieve; both because of current inerrancies in Christian thought in the conservative mainstream, but also because of the fallibility of human love. I'm neither a bibliolater or a fundamentalist; so my liberal Christian tendencies are more often than not considered irrelevant or as wrong as an "unbeliever". I would, however, like to say that I'm sorry for the shitty things Christians have done throughout history and more recent times. I hope that I can be more loving than hateful in this life. Anyways, that's my bit. -Simon

...

Anyway, back to earth...

Running a pro-choice website means I get some very violent tinged hate mail from "pro-life" Christians. Others, like Skitch send bible references to an open Atheist as if that Bible has any more relevance to me as truth as Moby Dick does. The responses are a result of a fundamentalist's fear of change and personal insecurities.

A fundamentalist's belief requires a scapegoat to cast their fears into as Jesus cast demons into pigs. It's in the same sense that fascism requires Jews or other minorities to blame for all their problems.

Sam Harris' only crime to the fundamentalists was having an opinion. This is the religion that executed people like Servetus for having a different viewpoint.

Skitch, I'll admit, I didn't read your entire entry (mostly because I don't want to throw up), but you do little to prove Mr. Harris wrong about fundies who are short-sighted. You point to the Bible as a defense and accuse Mr. Harris of not being able to read it correctly because you think he hasn't been baptised. A silly assumption to make since you have no idea of Mr. Harris's background. To say simply because one doesn't "believe", they cannot understand the Bible is also silly...how do you propose to do what you believe is "God's Will" by spreading the word of god? Without your scripture, you have the equivalent of bedtime stories.

Your antedotal stories of prayer healing diseases do nothing to prove you're correct in this debate; other people who practice other religions have experienced the same thing. I am agnostic and have never had a life-threatening illness; does that mean your God likes me better because he doesn't test me? No, it doesn't say anything except that I'm one of the majority of this planet's 6 billion people that have not had that particular misfortune.

I assume with your pasting of Deuteronomy, you think we should all have obedience to what you call "our Lord and Savior" which I'll have to stop you on right now. The United States has no lords and nobody is above the law, not to mention that the US was formed out of the disobedience to a King who ruled by divine right.

You also use the Bible to levy a veiled threat against all non-Christians with posting of Deuteronomy 28:15-68; also in which Deuteronomy 28:30, you imply all females with non-Christian males will be raped. A horrible threat coming from a representative of the religion whose central tenets are peace and forgiveness. However, that does not surprise me. I also am not surprised that "Hypocracy" is not one of your seven deadly sins.

In the end though, this entire blog (along with logic and reason) fall of deaf ears with you, Skitch. Unfortunately, there is nothing anbody can say to you that might even open up a two-way dialogue. You will continue to hear and believe what you want and nothing else...and knowing that that there are literally millions of people that are like you across this country alone keeps me up at night. So, I ask this of you, Skitch, instead of praying for our souls, please pray that religious fundamentalists like yourself doesn't destroy what makes this country great.

I never hear anyone mention the fact that at the time the Bible was written, humanity unanimously believed that the earth was flat.

Skitch,

I was once a hardcore, fundamentalist Christian and gave all the evidence thereof. I know the fact that I am no longer a Christian means that you assume that I never believed genuinely and was never "baptized in the Spirit" as it is phrased, but for the sake of argument, I feel the need to put it out there.

You said that one cannot understand the Bible without first being baptized in the Spirit, which it does. However, the Bible contradicts that in passages such as the Parable of the Sower, where the Word of God is called a seed which opens people up to receiving the Spirit.

Surely you (and god) do not expect people to simply believe in him without even being able to understand all the things he promises. Without that first knowledge, no one would believe.

However, you do cite verses which contradict this logical (and widely accepted) train of thought, because the exact opposite argument is more convenient to defend your faith at this juncture.

It's instances such as this, which became more and more obvious to me the more and more I read, that caused me to question and finally leave Christianity as a faith. These are the problems that we find with your book.

P.S. His point about cures? You totally missed it. His point wasn't that there aren't cures, but that "God" decided it was more important to discuss sacrifice procedures (which, he omnisciently knew would be abandoned when his Son arrived), than to provide knowledge and help for the people that he so "loved."

Amen.

wow .. that was a long post ...

.. on sam's article: i couldnt have put it better myself :D

er .. except i wouldnt have accused the bible of trying to be a science text...

Sam's great as usual. For anyone who hasn't seen his video clips at http://samharris.org - Check them out. His television appearances are great.

Skitch says;

"But when looking at the evidence regarding a historical Jesus, the Christ-deniers are being anything but rational and free-thinking and instead are only reaching their conclusions because of biased presuppositions and a priori assumptions that Jesus never existed."

Can you let us know of what historical evidence has been found of the existence of Jesus besides in religious texts? KIndly note that there is not even established arcaheological and historical evidence for Biblical figures like David and Solomon.

I'm not going to address the rest of the post, one of the reason is because I had my grandfather died of cancer and my experience of it is very different from yours.

And I think the guy you were addressing about the disease is actually asking why are there so many terminally fatal diseases. They are terminal because people die from it and there is no obvious cure.

If you can prove there is an obvious cure, I will be the first to honour you here. But if you are merely parroting unsubstantianted preachings from someone you heard, you better own up here.

A person's religion is little more then the attempt to justify what they would not themselves take responsibility for.

"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction." --Blaise Pascal

It is useless to attempt to reason a man out of a thing he was never reasoned into. --Jonathan Swift

That was very zealous stipe.

Pages of bible quotes?

Lets all argue the validity of the content of ancient books. What shall we base our arguments on? Logic? Fact? No. The content of ancient books.

Jesus loves me this I know. For the bible tells me so.

Are there a lot of people running around claiming the DaVinci Code is the new Gospel? I think most people are aware that it's a work of fiction.

Only bible beating fools seem to think much else of it. Only worshippers of heavily edited, poorly translated fairy-tales & drivel are so feverish.

Bible: "The Word of God"? "The Twaddle of Tyrants".

I’m afraid I’m going straight to H. E. double hockey sticks.

‘Gotta be less boring then heaven. I never learned the harp anyway.

Harris writes with precision & pith.

Seriosuly, why didn't you quote from the Koran or the Dao De Jing? They all seems to be at least as relevant.

And I don't see how being dunked in water grants you the ability to read:

"Mr. Harris won’t understand Scripture no matter how much he reads unless he has been Baptized by the Holy Spirit and accepts Salvation which God gives Him the gift to receive, he just has to accept it."

Guyedefaux, I wonder about it too as a translated version of Tao-de-jing is just a 50-page text. It's just an easy a read as "Who moved my cheese".

You will find more answers in the Dao-De-jing, with regards to what is happening in the world today, as compared to the Bible, but minus the Bible's many contraditions and biases.

P.S. Frank, nice quote : >

beowulfkg ... i think you meant "simon" .. not "stipe". but dont feel too bad .. if this were mastermind youd have got one red marker and a white one too .. :D

points to great big long zealous post as opposed to teensy little pansy one

you will find i very rarely quote the bible ...

HAHA .. no wait .. skitch .. SORRY SIMON!

slaps self silly

oops....Skitch then

I like that Swift quote Quoteboy

Agree with you there, Kes, re. the Dao De Jing's relevance.

I wonder why Christians can't relate to my nausea when they quote section upon sections of the bible. How would they feel if I regailed them with anecdotes from Odysseaus's travels?

Please quit lumping all Christians together with the selfish, arrogant, dogma-bound egotists who populate the ranks of what the religious right.

Thanks.

Were both the Matthew & Skitch posts here early this morning? I don’t know how I missed that, as I read the kes post in between. I’m glad Skitch was added because I thought Matthew was a little short: Wordcount: Matthew 6571 Skitch 6587

“. and accepts Salvation which God gives Him the gift to receive, he just has to accept it.” I know …… but maybe a word was deleted too.

“The want of belief is a defect that ought to be concealed when it cannot be overcome.” Jonathan Swift

"With most people disbelief in a thing is founded on a blind belief in some other thing." G. C. Lichtenberg

Matthew and Skitch need to get their own blogs post their rants there and link to them here if they are on topic. What is it about Christians that makes them think that quoting crap from the Bible is going to persuade anyone. We want verifiable facts here not delusions based on delusions, but I stray from the point I want to make. Keep your comments short and succinct if you need 6000 words + post it somewhere else and then link to it. I'm going to simply delete them in the future.

Norm, if you think it's getting noisy in here with the pro-Christ lobby, just visit the Da Vinci movie page at www.imdb.com

I was there a few days ago to find out about the movie, if it's worth watching as I read the book. The moment you hit the discussion threads, you see a lot of Xtians posting defensive threads or anti-atheists rants and they did not even watch the movie!!!!!

I spent some time refuting their comments, especially their erronesous views on the Gnostic writings but gave up. I'll probably just read a movie review that is accessible to both Xtians and non-believers instead.

Btw, the movie is worth watching, as it brings the book alive in its obsession with visual symbols : >

stipe, I apologies for the mix up with your name, & for not saying so in my correction post. My mind awonders. A wondering albatross.... & no wafers

wanders even

OK, not like anyone will read this far down the thread, but:

As an current and longtime atheist who went through years of religious schooling, I found stuff I disagreed with from Christians and atheists alike.

First, Trevro. It is simply false that "all of humanity" believed the earth to be flat at the time "the Bible was written." The first argument for the claim that the earth is round is attributed to Pythagoras (500BC). Of the Ancient Greek text that actually survived, Aristotle (mid- 4th century BC) directly argued for the roundness of the earth based on astronomical observations. Furthermore, the Bible was not written all at once, but over many centuries. The latest New Testament (canonical) gospel, John, is presumed by scholars to have been written between 90 - 110 AD. (That is, almost half a millenia after Pythagoras, and centuries after Aristotle).

Second, I think there is immense confusion about the claim that the Council at Nicea (325 AD) putatively "invented" the divinity of Christ. The council was convened at the request of the emperor Constantine, in order to decide on major matters of doctrine, of which the "divinity" of Christ was a major issue. (cf., the Nicine Creed; the doctrines which they approved are still professed to this day every Sunday at Mass by Catholics. The relevent line from the creed is: "begotten not made, one in being [homo-ousion]with the Father"). That is, the doctrine is that Christ is made of the "same stuff," homo-ousia, as God. However, the council established this as a doctrine precisely because there was a tremendous amount of controversy in the early "Christian" church over the "status" of Jesus Christ. So, no, they did not "invent" this claim in the sense that they "invented" it out of thin air or were the first people to think it. However, once this and other doctrines were established, people who persisted in believing otherwise were persecuted. So it is true that they decided that their doctrines were the official "truth" of the matter, whereas before it was not obvious, because there were many different "christian" sects espousing all manner of claims. (cf. A History of God, by Karen Armstrong, Chapter 4).

Next, Michael: you are right, I know a number of Christians who do not believe that those who are not Christian are ipso facto condemned to hell for eternity. However, there are certainly passages in the Bible that seem to invite this view. See, e.g., among many passages like this, John 14:6-8: "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father EXCEPT THROUGH ME" (The context is a discussion about heaven). What do you do with passages like this? Moreover, if you pick and choose what certainly appear to be major statements of doctrine like this, according to what consistent principle do you make this selection? Finally, this is hardly an exceptional interpretation of such passages. Before the advent of post-secular societies in the West, most people believed that not only atheists, but also any "christians" who were not the right kind of "christian" would be condemned to hell. Of course, not all people believed this: not, e.g. Erasmus and some other enlightened folk, but they were definitely in the overwhelming majority.

i read it adam .. well said.

I’m afraid I’m going straight to H. E. double hockey sticks.

HEJJ?

Well written. Thanks for pointing out clearly that Jesus was never specifically stated that he was a God.

kes .. i have to pick on yuor grammar .. this wasnt well written:

"Thanks for pointing out clearly that Jesus was never specifically stated that he was a God."

do you mean that jesus never said he was god? can i ask why the religious leaders wanted him killed then?

Jesus never said he was God when he was alive, only that he was sent for the Jews.

The Nicean Creed which affirmed Jesus divinity can only find a basis in 3 quotations:

Jesus Christ is described as "God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God."

Jesus Christ is said to be "begotten, not made."

Finally, he is said to be "from the substance of the Father."

This it's a far-fetch for anyone to conclude that Jesus as all of us can claim tobe made of the substance of the father if he creates us all and the word "begotten' has both connotations of siring and creating a being.

Stipe, whether the religious leaders wanted Jesus killed does not necessarily have anything to do with Jesus as a god.

They could want him killed because Jesus' version of Judaiam challenged existing Jewish conventions.

That they do not want Jesus to strenghten his influence among the Jews.

That they do not want another rival for the minds and hearts of the Jews.

"Thus it is far-fetch for anyone to conclude that Jesus is God as all of us can claim to be made of the substance of the father if he creates us all and the word "begotten" has both connotations of siring and creating a being."

I think the most ridiculous part of skitch's post is where he claims to be part of the medical profession. Unless he means he cleans hospital floors, I find it hard to believe that someone who can barely write 500 coherent words is a doctor.

Sam, first an apology for the offensive Christians who have offered you anything less than their thoughtful response to you and your ideas - they are at best misguided and at worst meanspirited.

I began to respond to some of the content in the posts, but I arrived too late, the water has been stirred so thoroughly in so many directions that more copy adds only to the muck and mire of questions without answers.

In parting, if you believe he existed at all, even as a "just" man and that there is something he (purportedly) taught which rings true to you, that this thought benefits you - even temporally.

Pal Alexander