Fantastic Stuff! Particularly this...

Said the judge: "It is ironic that several of these individuals, who so staunchly and proudly touted their religious convictions in public, would time and again lie to cover their tracks and disguise the real purpose behind the ID Policy."

The judge complained about the frivolous cost of the proceedings for which he ruled over, but I call it money well spent to teach the religious zealots a lesson or two in American Civics.

Do they get the message? No. But at least they were blocked from further silliness for now.

Unfortunately only blocked in Pennsylvania. And these zealots are really wanting to make sure that everyone learns that this entire universe was created just 5,000 years ago in 6 days... and that explains all of the things that science has not been able to explain in clear concise logical "intellegent" reasoning.

You believe that, I have a pet crocodile I want to sell you. It only nibbles. :)

Is there an intellegent force in the Universe? Yep. Get up from your confuser for a second and go the the washroom (bathroom, loo, etc.) and look in the mirror - unless of course you are the horses asses that we have leading this country.

Like Dr. Frist, who was able to determine that a woman (we all know who) was completely viable and on the road to full recovery WITHOUT any examiniaton of scientific evidence and therefore tried to stay her death. He just knew in his heart she would be OK. Funny how he back-pedalled when the autopsy came out.

Yes, the Universe is extremely complicated and amazing - 95% of what is out there, we can't even define or analyse. And we are seeing light from some sources that is 14 billions years old.

OK, OK - it is 5,000 years old, it just stopped at a 7/11 for a Slurpy.

I have no problem with fundamentalist wanting to believe anything they want - just don't try to force feed it down my throat. If you don't want your children to attend biology, then have then take a wood shop class - they can reminisce about the carpenter guy.

I also find it interesting that the judge was astute enough ot catch these bozos in their lies and include it in his 135 page opinion. Yippee!! It is now public record!

Of course, they (the fundies) have a perfect example of a liar in the Administration.

Besides,we all know evolution has been proven: we have living proof that man evolves from a drunken failing University student to a horses ass and then try to lead the country.

:)

Reason triumphs, for now. It being a federal judge's ruling, this should hold for a while nationwide.

It's about damn time common sense got through. On to Kansas! Maybe once we get them to change the defintion of science back to what it actually is, and ban intelligent design, they might become respectable again. Maybe.

Dude. It's Kansas.

We owe our victory today to the Flying Spaghetti Monster and his loyal Pastafarians.

YankInOz... your entire argument is invalidated by the fact that you spelled "Slurpee" with a 'y'.

It is interesting to note that this judge, John E. Jones III, was a 2002 Bush appointee. So much for the liberal activist judge slant the right is going to try and apply to this ruling...

As Thomas Frank ("What's the Matter with Kansas") would explain, this is a victory in disguise for the right-wing thieves of the modern GOP. When you cry "On to Kansas! Maybe once we get them to change the defintion of science back to what it actually is..." you are being rational, of course – but that is entirely beside the point. A loss in court to 'elitist, liberal, pointy-headed, perfessers' is exactly what the GOP establishment relishes. This is exactly what they want to keep stoking the asinine martyr complex of fundamentalist rednecks – all the better to rip them off in election after election.

Reason won.

I liked this part of his decision best:

"Those who disagree with our holding will likely mark it as the product of an activist judge. If so, they will have erred as this is manifestly not an activist Court. Rather, this case came to us as the result of the activism of an ill-informed faction on a school board, aided by a national public interest law firm eager to find a constitutional test case on ID,"....The breathtaking inanity of the Board’s decision is evident when considered against the factual backdrop which has now been fully revealed through this trial. The students, parents, and teachers of the Dover Area School District deserved better than to be dragged into this legal maelstrom, with its resulting utter waste of monetary and personal resources."

This is exactly what they want to keep stoking the asinine martyr complex of fundamentalist rednecks – all the better to rip them off in election after election.

Well, there really isn't much to be done to stop people who vote because fundamentalists tell them to other than to prove their fundamentalist ideas completely invalid to present situations. Then hopefully over time the US will be like all the other Western countries in the world and only a small portion of the population will be going to church or even say they belong to a religion.

But I'm an optimist -- sue me ;)

Hear, here.

A win is a win, even if the martyr complex is reinforced.

They really aren't the majority, you know. The masses who aren't invested need to hear it over and over:

ID is Creationism wearing lipstick.

Cory ... having lived mostly outside of the USofA since 1972 and having never ordered a Slurpee nor consumed one - and having not stepped into a 7/11 for many many years... I feel comfort that that is the only thing that you can find in error of my argument.

By the way, how creative is it to spell a word tha same way every time? Risk a little, drink milk a day after the expiration date, drive down your driveway without your seatbelts on, (and other Carrot Top tricks) :P

BTW, I know you are funnin'

Today I am in One Good Mood!

The judge's ruling made the news last night here in the UK. Unfortuneatly so did that wonderful ambassador for fundamentalist America, Pat Robertson. His oh so christian words to the people of Dover were aired.

At the time the words first spewed from his venomous little mouth, I thought "Nice one Pat" there is more than likely some little old lady living in Dover that probably hangs on to every last word, how will she be feeling now Pat? clutching her bible and waiting for armagedan.

What a poor excuse for a man is this insufferable little prick.

ENLIGHTENMENT 1 FUNDAMENTALIST-EVANGELICAL PSEUDO-SCIENCE 0

"I have no problem with fundamentalist wanting to believe anything they want - just don't try to force feed it down my throat." - YankInOz

I think that may be how some creationists feel about any unproven evolutionist teachings being taught to students in required public school classes as well...

=)

" "I have no problem with fundamentalist wanting to believe anything they want - just don't try to force feed it down my throat." - YankInOz

I think that may be how some creationists feel about any unproven evolutionist teachings being taught to students in required public school classes as well...

=)

Posted by: Your Dad on December 21, 2005 01:12 PM"

Which is easier to prove the existence of a boogie man in the sky who has never been seen or scientific evidence of mutation (which is a form of evolution)? And as I said, if tey don't want to take biology, then they can take wood working shop or go to a trade school and learn to be a carpenter. NO ONE is forcing them to study biology. BUT if I want to take a biology class and have to hear BS about ID (which is Creationism with a new make up on) <- see above post by Emphyrio; then that is an infringement on my Consitutional right to have seperation of church and state.

If creationist want to teach ID, they can teach it in their private schools and offer scholarships to the "public school disadvantaged" that want to hear it.

PS: My Dad died when I was 2 1/2, so you ain't my Dad. =)

" "I have no problem with fundamentalist wanting to believe anything they want - just don't try to force feed it down my throat." - YankInOz

I think that may be how some creationists feel about any unproven evolutionist teachings being taught to students in required public school classes as well...

=)

Posted by: Your Dad on December 21, 2005 01:12 PM"

Which is easier to prove the existence of a boogie man in the sky who has never been seen or scientific evidence of mutation (which is a form of evolution)? And as I said, if tey don't want to take biology, then they can take wood working shop or go to a trade school and learn to be a carpenter. NO ONE is forcing them to study biology. BUT if I want to take a biology class and have to hear BS about ID (which is Creationism with a new make up on); see above post by Emphyrio, then that is an infringement on my Consitutional right to have seperation of church and state.

If creationist want to teach ID, they can teach it in their private schools and offer scholarships to the "public school disadvantaged" that want to hear it.

PS: My Dad died when I was 2 1/2, so you ain't my Dad. =)

It is interesting to note that this judge, John E. Jones III, was a 2002 Bush appointee. So much for the liberal activist judge slant the right is going to try and apply to this ruling...

Posted by anon at December 20, 2005 03:03 PM

There goes the myth that GW will only appoint right wing, neo-conservative, religious zealots.

They really aren't the majority, you know. The masses who aren't invested need to hear it over and over:

ID is Creationism wearing lipstick.

Posted by: Emphyrio

Emphyrio, I agree and I hope that you don't mind if I use that quote, so that the masses do hear it over and over again.

What a poor excuse for a man is this insufferable little prick.

Posted by: oscar wilde RE: Pat Robertson

Oscar, I think that you flatter this pathetic excuse for a man by referring to him that way. ;)

Your Dad, I don't think that those who are against ID being taught in schools really care one way or the other whether or not you understand the concepts of evolution. However, to teach the children that ID, which is a pure mythological, religious, untestable hypothesis, is on a par with the testable theory of evolution which has never been tested as false, but for which there is plenty of evidence to support it -- to do this is to ruin the science classes and return science to the dark ages and to the times of witch burning.

Rather than Biology 101, or Anthropology 201, we will have Fairy Tales 101, Who is Mas Macho? Allah or Jesus - A Philosophical Discussion 301. No more discussing Aristotle or Voltaire. We now offer to you the Bible, the Koran, and the Way of the Unicorn. Welcome to the United States, the year 2020. Christians, being the majority, have taken over. Radical Scientists, crazy atheists, and immoral hippie liberal commie femi nazis are no longer welcome.

"As Thomas Frank ("What's the Matter with Kansas") would explain, this is a victory in disguise for the right-wing thieves of the modern GOP. When you cry "On to Kansas! Maybe once we get them to change the defintion of science back to what it actually is..." you are being rational, of course – but that is entirely beside the point. A loss in court to 'elitist, liberal, pointy-headed, perfessers' is exactly what the GOP establishment relishes. This is exactly what they want to keep stoking the asinine martyr complex of fundamentalist rednecks – all the better to rip them off in election after election."

That's absolute BS. It's a victory for them if we lose, but it's also a victory for them if we win? Don't buy that crap. WE WON. Only the people who lost think this way. If fundamentalists try to turn this into some activist liberal witch hunt, it's going to fail. The only people listening will be the ones who have been listening all along.

Have pity for the poor, heathen Christians, who know not the ways of the Force. Ripe they are for the machinations of the Dark Side. Resist the teachings of the Sith, I say unto them, that they may be not fooled by Darth Cheneyious and his Apprentice, nor their dark priests.

Great satisfaction will I have when demands upon the churches I shall put that they teach evolution and proven scientific theory in their halls of heathen worship. The Force well with Science jives, excepting of course the unproveable Jedi bits.

Creationists are uneducated and probably uneducable when it comes to evolution. They have no evidence for their views. Ask someone like 'your dad' how long ago he believes dinosaurs lived and you get no answer. He's ready to question others, but is unwilling to offer any alternative. He's demonstrated that he is a troll, nothing more.

I agree that creationists are uneducable when it comes to evolution. There is no chance whatsoever that they will ever understand, nor do they care to understand. I just have to share the following blog from another site which was posted by a young man in his early twenties.. makes me want to throw up my hands and wonder what the hell kind of country that I am living in.. sigh..

QUOTE FROM YOUNG BLOGGER Intelligent design, before it became this big controversy, was the accepted idea with everyone I knew, whether or not they were religious. The religious nuts wouldn't be able to deny the massive evidence that darwin knew what he was tlaking about, so they said "yeah, that's how we got to where we are, but God started it". Then the Scientific wack jobs wouldn't be able to tell anyone where everything started from (while they had lots of theorys and "untestable hypothethis'") so, assuming they weren't too stubborn and anti religous, they would say "well, there was probably some omnipotent being that got the whole thing going". Honestly, intelligent design is the balance that I think we need. It's the yin and the yang all in one, and untill someone PROVES otherwise, I'd say it's the best theory out there. BUT, I don't think we should teach the kids much of anyhting about how it all started till we have a much better idea, because for all we know we're so far from the truth it's not funny.

Some of you are such a riot still. hehe. I never said nor do I say that ID should be taught in public schools. Teaching the facts is fine, teaching what is plausible is fine, but that when you teach something is only plausible as a fact, then you are misstepping.

Some of you still can't speak civil-like on here so when all you do is verbally bash others, there needs to be a kiddy forum for you I think for your tantrums. Or wait, is this the kiddy room?

I'm not attacking anyone here for believing animals today are just mutations of randomly appearing simple creatures living millions and millions of years ago... slowly popping out wings, feathers, legs, intelligence, etc. If you like that idea, go with it, you can be nice about it though.

I didn't say an invisble guy popped the universe into existance and asks love for all & worship from mankind, but if I did say that, i'd still be nice about it.

That's the point you don't take a stand on anything, you just criticize and offer nothing in its place. If someone says they believe storks bring babies are you going to be nice are you going to respect their view, or are you going to tell them they're full of it. Oh never mind I'm tired of reading your crap.

Dad Dude said, "I'm not attacking anyone here for believing animals today are just mutations of randomly appearing simple creatures living millions and millions of years ago... slowly popping out wings, feathers, legs, intelligence, etc. If you like that idea, go with it, you can be nice about it though."

ha ha ha ha!! ROFL... OMG that is funny. So THAT is what you think evolution is? No really, I know that you must be joking, you gotta be pulling our legs here.

(She laughs and points finger and sticks out her tongue... after all, this is the kiddie room.. ha ha ha)

Oh, thanks for the laugh... too funny. :)

"Your Dude":

Weren't you warned as a child that eating your own boogers would be hazardous to your intellectual development?

I am not joking. I'm all civil-like and stuff.

Your Dad I don't believe ID has any place in the class room. Rather evolution has been proven or not has no relevance. ID is a religious belief, while Evolution is a scientific theory.

That being said, good luck trying to have any civil conversation on here, these "liberals" on here are very un-liberal. They are as closed minded and hatefull as any "conservative". I have tried to have civil conversations on here about various topics and they usually tell you how much they hate you and call you names.

Just decry anyone you hear, see or even think may disagree with you on any topic as uneducated, moronic, and unenlightened, sprinkle in a little dismay, maybe a little sadness for the future of this coutry because everyone in the country doesn't believe exactly as you and you will fit in just fine. Otherwise, just watch from afar, chuckle sometimes and pick your spots.

Nanny, nanny.. nanny nanny boo boo ;)

I wish that I could be as mature as Dad Dude and that I had his capacity for interesting commentary..

Mat, I am not joking either and being "all civil-like and stuff", LOL ha ha ha!..

I just cannot take Dad Dude seriously anymore as he plays too many games. If he would ever directly address an issue, it would be different, but he acts like a troll and then suddenly becomes all rational and stuff. I don't buy it. It's all a silly game.

What galls me the most about defenders of ID is their unapologetic tactics to bring religion into the classroom. They never deny ID is creationism. They are trying to introduce the Bible into the classroom with a BIOLOGY bookcover thinking nobody will notice. That trick won’t work.

I’m working today in a somewhat diminished capacity. (I have what Norm had.) Cough cough sneeze sneeze.

I sincerely love these discussions sometimes. If I had a big house and lots of money I would have you all over for a party and let’s talk. I promise I won’t make Jo Ann play Twister with me. (nudge nudge)

May you all have a fabulous holiday season. (or is the Dayquil talking?)

That being said, good luck trying to have any civil conversation on here, these "liberals" on here are very un-liberal. They are as closed minded and hatefull as any "conservative". I have tried to have civil conversations on here about various topics and they usually tell you how much they hate you and call you names.

It's not a question of hate, intolerance, or a lack of "liberalness" that causes so much vitriol on here; most "conservatives" (and anti-reason wackos) don't come here to engage in substantive debate or discussion. They mostly spew out their usual one-liners and slogans (and with a great amount of sneering and creepy condescension), then react with mock horror when the feedback to their silly piffle is mostly negative.

I mean, really, how civil should I be to people who hit the ground running with their guns blazing, spraying insults, specious facts, and pithy right-wingnut slogans that make absolutely NO logical sense?

Like this piffle:

I think that may be how some creationists feel about any unproven evolutionist teachings being taught to students in required public school classes as well...

Unproven? Well, there's more supportive scientific evidence of the evolutionary process that "Intelligent Design." The former requires testability, repeatability, and a general acceptance of the results, while the latter requires a leap of faith and nothing else. Epistemologically speaking, it ID certainly isn't science. So why SHOULD it be taught in science class?

Now, most normal, educated, rational thinkers, "liberal" or "conservative," would heartily agree with what I've said. Science, after all, is not ideological.

So how do we have a "civil" discussion with morons like the above person who quoted that piffle when they don't know enough about science, scientific method, or the epistemological limits of science, to discuss it without sounding like a moron? And the arrogance with which they express their stupidity also makes it rather difficult to remain "civil."

No, it is better to call a moron a moron and not patronize them into thinking they are even in the same ball park, let alone universe, intellectually. Call me an elitist, but I'm find no merit to arguing with people who are flat out wrong and are too fanactical to change their minds or the subject.

Believe me, I understand there are some people that are so fantatical, they do hit the ground running on here spewing insults and such, and hey have at it, they deserve the best insults you can muster. But all too often on here people pounce no matter how civil you are in disagreeing. How do you know if they are too "fanatical" to change their minds, if you pounce right on with the insults and elitist attitude right off the start? I don't mean you directly, more of a rhetorical question for the site as a whole.

I first got on here a few months back, tried to discuss the whole Katrina thing, I thought too much emphasis was placed on blaming the federal goverment, was called about every name in the book, moron, fanatic, people saying " i hate people like you" you name it. You know what? even a moron like myself was able to listen to opposing points of view, look at everything from diffrent perspectives and say "ya know, I think I was wrong about a few things".

Yo Your Dad - obviously you only read what you want to read. I do not agree with forcing any belief system on anyone. Period. What you been spewing is pure piffle (yes, it is a good word. As are so many words that were obviously create 5000 years ago by the great and omnipotent FSM. ;)

The key to all of this, for me, is I really don't want someone else's belief systems pushed on me and I for as sure do not want to push my beliefs on you or anyone else.

I mentioned that if you don't want to study a certain topic - take another class. Most sciences are electives or you can go to your school counsellor and have a class substituted based upon your beliefs. That is freedom of choice.

If people want to study Intelligent Design - call it what it is - creationism with a new dress on and go read about it in Sunday School. As for evolution - I think it is about semantics and the scientific method. But as a research scientist, I guess I wouldn't know much about that or subscribe to such inane and innocuous methods of proving anything out. Semantics because it is only a word of how a man saw results and how he traced those particular results backwards and forwards. And how that research has advanced. There is no evidence for the Fling Spagetti Monster (except for his symbol showing up in a bacterial culture), so that is based upon hope, faith and beliefs. Thus a "religius experience", which needs to be kept in religious institutions.

For me it IS about separation of church and state. I have been exposed to what happens when the state and church are in cahoots together. America does not need to become the Christian Germany of the 1920s to 1940s (and still continues to this day). Just go to Germany and register as a Jew and see what happens to you - yes, even now.

How does the perniciousness of theocratic government inculcate itself into a society? I believe by small demands, one by one. I see demanding ID being taught in public state schools as that pernicious behaviour. If pepel want their children to be taught ID, let them go to private schools (as I stated before).

Now if all you are wanting to do is be an a$$ and play games then you can, but if you truly are seeking to debate a topic, then read all of the response and previous statemnets in the thread about the topic and then respond. (That is the process of a scientific debate or you can celebrate the great day of the FSM with me). ;)

Obviously, this topic raises a few hackels on people's necks. This is a witness of the power of the great FSM in your life.

And by the way, this is a good season to have pasta and meatballs, in celebration of the saving grace of the great and glorious WWFSMD. Praise cheeses. Aarg!

ahem... Cowboy, I think that you took too much of that Dayquil... Hope that you are feeling better soon. I would love to get together with some of the OGMers and have a great discussion... but NO TWISTER! LOL

'your dad' no longer has my authorization to comment on this site. Further comments will considered abuse and his ISP will be contacted. If he has any questions he has my email address.