Yo Christianshere is what the Bible says about this kind of stuff: The Bible is very clear in what it says about the proper way for Christians to pray, stating in the Gospel of Matthew chapter 6, verses 5-6, "When thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.

But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly."

Hmmmmm... So which are you? How would these folks act if there was no camera around?

These children are not God's Interns but the puppets of organized religion. There is a reason why some women need to choose sometimes choose abortion. It may not be a reason these children agree with, but there is a reason behind the abortion. There is no reason why our Government should lie about using White Phosperous on Iraqi Civilians. None. Yet these interns of God don't seem the least bit upset about this, and that's because they don't give a rat's ass about the killing of innocents. They only see abortion as a doorway to attract more children into their myopic faith.

How on earth did America get to this stage? I'm British and after watching that I can't honestly tell wether it was piece on Washington 'interns' or interns in Tehran. Obviously the lack of beards and the speaking of english gave it away slightly ;)

Some of those scenes of people praying could have been lifted right out of a scene from one flew over the cuckoos nest. I'm not being obnoxious with that statement. Watch the movie again and see what I mean.

this video really scared me.

"Yo Christianshere"

Hear this because it becomes old in it's saying, taking this video and extrapolating the fanaticism evident in it and applying it to all of Christian thought is foolish and ignorant.

Let's first acknowledge the cold reality that despite the best efforts of agnostics, atheists, and people of other faiths, the battle before us is WITHIN Christianity. I challenge anyone here to find unanimity among theologians in the Roman Catholic Church, the Evangelical Lutheran Church of American, the Espicopal Church or a plethora of other mainline Protestant faiths. Hardly any of these traditional 'Christian' faiths acknowledges a duty of direct intervention in political affairs. As difficult as it may be for some to accept and incorporate into their worldview, Christianity is a very broad family of perspectives and theories. I see a pattern of persistent and intentional generalizations. These stereotypes simply feed into a predisposed hostility. Honest and rational criticism is a hallmark of Protestant faiths. It is intellectually dishonest to ignore the distinctions among faiths and the variety that is to be found among those that call themselves 'Christians'. Question the existence of God or the supernatural but please do not assume that you understand the vast spectrum of opinion that is found in religous (i.e. Christian) thought.

Yo Distaste - I quoted the Bible - not the dogmas of some sect or organized religion. If you have a conflict with what I quoted, then you need to rethink that the quote was a supposed statement prior to any Christian faith being organised - the man was supposedly a Jew at the time. Consider that.

And while you are casting dispersion, please do not decide how much I know or not know about religion in general nor "Chiristianity and its various paths" in particular.

Your point about direct intervention is inaccurate - have you not read or heard about the direct intervention of Roman Catholic Priests and Nuns in the "battle" for rights by Inca and Mayan decendants in Mexico and how some were slauughtered for their efforts by the military and pseudo-military? Look more deeply into the efforts in Central and South America in the last, oh say, 500 years. No interference there. Hmmm

Or maybe in Spain or the Middle East or the Crusades - give me a break.

Religious protagonists have been in forefront of political upheaval since the beginning of time as we know it. It isn't confined to Christian faiths.

Dogma and proactive inculcation of various beliefs does not make it right. Nor having it "advertised" on TV or any other media.

My comment was directed at the blatant dismissal of the counsel of the man whom these people revere as their god.

"I'm a God Warrier!!!!".... Every christian does praise and worship differently. Some jump up and down and some sit quietly...."Everything is UnGodly !!"

Not sure which denomination is represented in the video, but you gotta admit - non-Christians cannot be blamed for thinking this behavior is a bit wacky, if not disturbingly fanatical. (Fanaticism all look the same, does't it?)
Also, being formerly Xtian myself, I don't doubt these young people's passion and sincerity, I just don't happen to agree with them on most issues. (The White Phospherous in Falluja incident as Bristow pointed out - I highly doubt these young people would want to know about these kinds of messy incidents the gov't is responsible for). Yes, there are numerous permutations in worship within and outside the denominations, and it's so easy to generalize and lump them on into one crazy Christian Fundie Group, but the most visible and vocal ones are the ones people respond to. If they weren't so visible and so damn demonstrative all the time, and "working" so perilously close to gov't, we'd be better off just to ignore them.

Aagh! That's my neighborhood and it's funny to see it highlighted for this reason. What's much more significant (at least in numbers) than these 20 or so kids praying are the hundreds of Capitol Hill interns going to the bars downstairs from the prayer house every night getting drunk and hoping to get laid. That's the more accurate picture of DC.

Wow...

YankInOz says it best. Most of these folks wouldn't know the "Bible" from "The Iliad" if you were to read them quotes. They just know what they are told and let faith lead them into insanity. About the difference between sects of christianity - it's all just cults of different sizes. All belief systems are just that - a belief - even atheism is a belief. But I feel better knowing that in believing there is no god, I don't have to worry about whose interpretation of some book is right and don't need to deprive myself of life's pleasures in hopes that my god is the right one so that I can win the cosmic lottery and move on to the afterlife with my pals.

It's so much more fulfilling to just be a good person and enjoy life's true beauty.

We can't beat these people. They are not going to lie down and go home. There will be a civil war.

I have a sneaking suspicion about what those mysterious bells "meant." It means it's the top of the hour, dipshit!

LOL! Chastener. :)

You know, I've got mixed feelings about this.

First off...good for them. They are (hopefully) doing something they feel passionate about, in a way that (hopefully) has meaning to them.

On the other hand, what have they done to help end poverty, increase access to education and other opportunities to the less fortunate, possibly mentor young women, or advocate for greater responsibility for young men? These would all addressing some of the root causes of abortion.

While I consider myself "Pro-choice", I'd like to see our society do everything it can do to discourage abortion and provide a lot of other, more positive options.

But, as I see it, something like this would kill a galvanizing political issue for the right-wing...even though it would help end this problem they feel so "passionate" about.

The paradoxes abound!

EWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW. THAT was just plain WEIRD.

Yea, and at this time, a friend shall lose his friend's hammer, and the young shall not know the things possessed by their father

that their fathers put there only just the night before...

about 8:00 o'clock...

There's still a few crosses left, Godsquad. Go to church and repent.

I normally don't post comments anywhere that are this terse - but that was nuts.

Seriously. That's a cult. BRIGHT AND SHIIIII-NEEE!

This segment was more question-begging than insightful. The implication is that some if not all of these "interns" sole job is to pray. Who pays? Just that one old lady ("I took her money")? Donations from churches? It seems to me a stretch to call them interns as they don't really work for any political person or even any professional.

So many of these "news" magazine shows substitute emotive stimulation and fascination w/ the dramatic for any probing into means, motive and method.

Overall, I think the piece was more contrived (either by the "spiritural lobbyists" or by the producers) than an accurate portrayal.

It almost makes you long for just about anything other than this. The sad thing is that these type of people are not all that unusual. The Prom Queen/Cheerleader who graduated with a 4.0 reminded me a lot of a lady I know who graduated cum laude with a degree in chemistry, and yet she has this kind of over-zealous fanatical devotion, home schools her children and has their rooms filled with nothing but books on Christianity, and has all these anti-abortion stickers on the bumper of her car. However, if you speak to her on matters other than religion, she comes across as perfectly normal.

Distaste for Dissent, would you knock it off? You have been blogging here at onegoodmove long enough to have understood that these comments are not directed at all Christians. But even if you do want to make this point about not lumping all Christians into one group (and I have made this point myself before on their behalf although I am an atheist), could you be less condescending and less whiny? Your comment about the sharks on another thread had me laughing and I thought alright, DFD, a sense of humor! And then I read this, and think, oh no, not again, I have heard this from him before. :( Would you just cut it out please? Anyway, you could better make your point if you weren't so insulting. You don't want to be like Joe do you? Yikes!!!

Yank said, "How would these folks act if there was no camera around?". Good question. Would they act any different? But it does kind of remind me of some of the people at some liberal rallies, who exhibit this kind of weird, fanatical devotion such as those "breasts instead of bombs" weirdos. But at least those types aren't so close to the White House and they are just confined to Berkley and they are not forcing their beliefs on all of us by trying to pass laws which would outlaw shaving one's armpits.

Bobly said, "If they weren't so visible and so damn demonstrative all the time, and "working" so perilously close to gov't, we'd be better off just to ignore them." Ditto.

perhaps these children, for that is what they are, should go volunteer at an orphanage. lets go to the inner city to see what a crappy life some kids have. kids who are not wanted and are shuffled around through foster system or have druggy parents or parents who just can't afford to feed them because they can't keep a job. i agree with the poster who said they should maybe help address the problems that end up leading to an abortion instead of 'praying' for abortion to be illegal. i personally do not agree with abortion.... therefore i did not have one. i say to people like this, that if they don't believe in abortion, then don't have one. but don't try to push your beliefs on everyone else. frankly, i don't think a one of them knows what the hell they are talking about. they need to go out into the world and live a little before they try to pass judgements or to think they can form solid opinions or understandings of anything!

as to faith and religion... there are plenty of christians out there that go about their lives and live their faith instead of spending their time trying to 'save' everyone else. we all have to make choices based on our experiences and understanding, and shouldn't try to make choices for others in different situations with different understandings.

i grew up in a catholic house. some of my siblings still call themselves catholic, though i don't know any of them that actually attend a church. i will admit i have a disdain for religion, partly based on my experiences growing up. but there are also a lot of questions i have regarding the teachings of the catholic church especially. i think that believing in god rarely has anything to do with religion or the bible.

we play a game called greed at the family reunion each year. people bring packages wrapped in many different forms. some are wrapped ornately with pretty paper and bows, and others are in a brown paper bag. people fight over the prettily packaged ones... they must have something great inside! and every year, those are the ones that have the toilet brush inside.

what does my experiences with the greed game have to do with anything? the packaging. these religions have all the pretty paper and bows and look so inviting. but inside there is just a toilet brush. if you ask me, god is in nature. and i pray quietly as i stand in a field, or enjoy an autumn colorful visage. as far as i am concerned, god and religion are not the same thing.

did any one else catch taht part about some women approaching him and asking to pay his "salary" for an entire year? and he didnt know this weird women, but he took her money anyways.....lol good ol religion.....money and power, what it is all about in the end.

I wonder how much each intern has to pay to help out his salary.

On a side note...that video was scary. And I like what someone said earlier in these comments, about just being a good person and enjoying life, while you have it.

i would like to hear what the parents have to say about their kids being a part of this. SO CREEPY. Their leader sends shivers down my spine.

I would contest that these kids do actually know their bible. The problem is how literally they take their bible.

If they want to pray in Washington, fine, but I sincerely hope they aren't using all of the church's funds to pay for that flat on capitol hill. That money could be much better used this time of year clothing and feeding the poor.

Anyone wondering if those interns help with Lou Engle's salary? Well they do, to the tune of $1500 for a three month internship. Here is their web page. http://jhop.org/

THIS IS GREAT! Let them fight against abortion like this! We'll lobby the courts while they stand in a room and scream to invisible people! Excellent.

ejpoeta.... stoled my thunder. Stop jumping your ass around the room. Walk downtown DC and open up your heart not your mouth. Anybody can jump and bob about, how neat that all the people in the room can see how much I love god. I wish I had blondie with me on Thanksgiving at Salvation Army food line. She could of really perked things up.

i've lost all faith in humanity.

i think religion is a mental illness.

Like the organized protests of political activists of the 60's, the gatherings of today's religious activists will result in the same way: Young people will meet, hook up and get laid.

"Be sure to fill out the application completely (including both recommendations). Incomplete applications will not be considered until they are complete. Please include a non- refundable application fee of $20 and two distinct photographs of yourself."

And apparently they only want pretty christians too.

The single most retarded scene ever recorded in the history of humanity. The level of stupidity and gullibleness these people have leaves me speechless.

With all due respect, "aspersions" are cast, not "dispersions".

Aspersion: a : the act of calumniating b : a calumnious expression

Dispersion: the act or process of dispersing : the state of being dispersed

I don't care what anybody says, I love zombie movies and am not tired of them. This was the scariest one yet. ABC gives George Romero a run for the money!

OK, let me get this straight. In order to get God to intervene, he needs to be assaulted with non-stop prayer?? Or else what? He wont get off his lazy ass to save all the soon-to-be-aborted unborn souls he's busy creating?

whats the point of praying if god's already got his divine plan in motion? hilarious.

If you have ever visited a psychiatric hospital you might recognize the rocking action some of these people exhibited.

The one interviewee is just one notch from being the next Squeaky Fromme.

Let's just be happy these people are not acting on their beliefs. Nothing fails like prayer.

Jo Ann, and Yo' YankInOz I appreciate your honest criticism and perhaps I was a little condescending. I may have in fact misread the post while nursing a late night stupor and for that I appologize. Unfortunately, I have also encountered derision, condescension, and open hostility directed at those of faith (e.g. tinfoil hats and dunce caps). I find that the point regarding diversity bears repeating because videos like this are used to make sweeping condemnations. If individuals claim to hold a rational perspective than they will not cling to their broad generalizations of Christianity, I am simply holding their feet to the fire on this point. The dilemna (and perhaps my own hostility) arises out of the fact that liberal Christians find themselves attacked by fellow believers for their lack of fanaticism or piety and at the same time attacked by fellow liberals because they hold these beliefs at all. To be frank I have no intention of humbling myself before the feet of the skeptics here simply because they dislike my 'tone'. Jo Ann, I appreciate your comments and honest nature. However I believe the tone of my comments often echos what has been said by other, less tactful, atheists. I find it irritating that some here whine about my pontifications but feel fully justified in their own generic and insulting comments, and Norm you know what I am refering to. I will make a promise, I will refrain from drunken rants against "stereotyping Christians" if we can begin using the qualifier "fundamentalist" when it is appropriate. I think most would agree that these teenagers fall well within that category.

Laurens Van der Post "Human beings are perhaps never more frightening than when they are convinced beyond doubt that they are right."

Weird ,Yes...contrived passion, No. I have seen the same oddities from passionate lefties. "Breast's not Bombs" (or something like that) "F**k for Forests." Most people here have legitimate fear. But it is fear from lack of understanding. (I feel) It's easy just to say "these are just weirdoes who believe in fairytales. I'm right. End of argument." I would say most of those here assailing Christians and the church have never made an honest effort to educate themselves about it. Who’s to say these kids are not doing or have done work with homeless or drug addicts? I bet more of them have than you like to think. I can almost guarantee more than liberal interns. At least they are not planning out how to fly planes into abortion clinics. They are praying and demonstrating. What so threatening about that? Somebody mentioned civil war.... possibly..... I have often thought that America, in 50 years, would be divided by an ideological/social separation. Everything west of the Mississippi goes to progressive liberals and east goes to conservatives …..maybe the Mexicans can have Texas (again) But if an actual civil war broke out, I would put my money on the Conservatives....They've got the GUNS!!!

So from reading these comments I gather that everyone is saying that if you believe in God your life will suck and be boring ??

What an excellent revivial of Marat/Sade. Are they still selling tickets?

amidst all the global problems in the world...

This looks more like a cult to me than any religion. Religion is about seeking greater spirituality. This is just cult-like mindlessness.

Actually, it looks like the arrow points slightly to the left of the Supreme Court building. I could never follow a God that has such shitty aim.

Ugh.

A few things. I loved the Marat/Sade reference. Amazing. I'll be damned if in the coming robot wars (err civil war) New York (being east of the Mississippi, C4P) is taken by the conservatives.

And then the point. Some stupid git said earlier, "even atheism is a belief." Really? I believe that atheism (assuming we take it to mean "not believing in God") is misleading. There's no word for people who don't believe in unicorns or people who don't believe in alchemy, is there? Why should there be a word for someone who doesn't believe in a god? It's not the addition of anything, it's merely a refusal to believe something someone tells you. Atheism, really, is the absence of belief.

Then again, if you specifically believe that there is, for a fact, no God, and you called that atheism, you'd have yourself a belief system there. But for all the logic and negative statement proofs, it's still grounded in a belief in something that you cannot actually show evidence of. Which is fairly different than the image of atheism shown above.

I know both kinds. And I wish you people (yes, YOU PEOPLE, I happen to be a born-again zen gnostic telepathogist) would come up with words that differentiate between the two, I'm tired of mixing you up when you refer to yourselves as atheists. I like to know where people stand on where there beliefs lie (or don't exist).

I'm tired.

Yikes, that is disturbing: hands raised, head knodding, squished face, hip thrusting power-prayer. The next big trend in worship will be full contact prayer. I guess that's what the "peace that passes understanding" provides.

I apologize for: posting twice in a row spelling "their" as "there" ending a sentence with a preposition in the second to last paragraph

I've seen this crazy cult stuff first hand, got dragged to a youth group by one of my gf's friends, promised me all they were doing was playing some games or something. Get there and there has been a change of plans and it turned into a worship session, looked exactly like you see here. I was scared for my life honestly, people shaking violently on the floor, looked like they were having seizures. Like some deadly disease was being pasted around the room and all I could hope that I wasn't next.

Then me and my gf got yelled at for holding hands because we weren't married and it was disrespectful to god. I was just like ok, I think thats my cue, time to leave. In which case we promptly left the building and I have never returned to another youth group session, infact I try my best just to stay away from that girl as much as possible.

It's a matter of degree isn't it, from the most literal interpretations of the Bible, the fundamentalists, to those who view the Bible as metaphorical. But all those that believe in 'miracles', the supernatural, and they comprise the vast majority of the religious, do so without any credible evidence. They have faith that it is true and their behavior in society reflects those beliefs. Someone recently pointed to the catholics respect for science, but didn't that come grudgingly, and didn't the changes come from concern that the church was becoming irrelevant more than for some respect for science. Science was simply discarded if it was too inconvenient and that continues to be the case. If today, a young man claimed he was the product of a virgin birth, and his mother agreed, you'd write them off as loony tunes, deserving of dunce caps or at least in need of a good psychiatrist, but that is the kind of story the Bible tells, and the religious believe it. If uncle Joe's wife died on Saturday and he buried her, and on Wednesday she rose from the grave you'd feel the same. Is it all that different from 'gods interns' who believe their praying will result in divine intervention. Do we want people that believe in the supernatural running the country? Do we want them making decisions that may very well cost us our lives or those of our children? Do they deserve our respect? Is it unreasonable to think that someone who believes in the supernatural may not make good reasoned decisions in other areas. George Bush and his war in Iraq are at least in part due to his belief in some divine mission. Is that so unusual? The fact that professing a belief in god to play any role in government is the reality demonstrates the danger of religion, and it also true that it is not limited to just fundamentalist nut-jobs.

1. Apparently god only acts if people ask him to.
2. Bobbing like a mental patient (no insults meant to mental patients) is accepted behavior as long as you are praying.
3. This TV segment, like most, was in response to a press release by this or some related group. OK it is topical but is the viewer supposed to be in awe of these lunies?
4. Except for the "leader", apparently everyone over 22 has probably "seen the light" and walked away from this cult.
5. You sure this wasn't a Daily Show spoof?

WOW.... THE 21st CENTURY?!??!?

If all these kids don't need to go to work (they appear to be well off, since they are all well grommed and dressed) and can waste their time praying all day, makes me wonder how much money is this guy actually making them out of them. cough cult! cough

The bells ringing is an idiotic minor coincidence taken advantage by ABC. Picture a 40 minute conversation where 20 "inspirational points" are made over. After the fifth "inspirational point" and 24 minutes into the conversation, the time hits 12pm and the bells ring. ABC says "Ah how poetic! We'll include this in the broadcast!" and make the proper editing. People go "Oh! Aaaah!" and think there's something behind it. If the coincidence never happened, then it would be shrugged off and no major repercussion would've occurred from the lack of coincidences.

At least these kids are useless inside a little apartment. Doesn't compare to Bush and other politicians wasting our time with anti-abortion legislation, which is hurting many women all over the country and while we're lacking jobs.

So basically they pay $1500 for 3 months of praying and fasting and "internship" credit? Seems fishy...and wasteful.

I can't think of a practical use for that experience (no state university would take it as credit), but the JHOP website does. According to Mr. Engle, "[JHOP] serves as the main entry point for those interested in joining the staff of JHOP as well as those who desire to begin similar houses of prayer around the nation and nations." Oh, great. There might be more of these popping up around the country; I think there's already one in San Diego.

I did have to laugh a little at the reasoning behind the building choice (it happened to point toward the Court).

One more thing: I found it a little peculiar that the reporter stopped midsentence at the beginning of his voiceover ("The Justice House, (pause) The Justice House of Prayer").

Norm, Would you want only people who do not believe in the supernatural to run the country or would you allow for people who believe in the supernatural but do not bring it into their decision making? You say "the vast majority of the religious, do so [believe in God] without any credible evidence." If it is the "vast majority," is it possible that the religious know something that you don't....? ...yet? I mean really. Is it your assertion that religious people are completely ignorant? That reasoning can only come from one place...... Graduate School. You seem very educated. Did you attend a grad. school? Just wondering.

I am a progressive who watches the videos on onegoodmove all the time because I agree with them.
I am a spiritual person who prays consistantly in my life, and because of experiences I have had, I recognize the personal experiences those interns are each having, regardless of which Regressive politicians and groups love what they are praying for 24/7.

Are you comfortable with prayer, or another form of spiritual practice? Can you comment on the connection to their cause that they each have?

Is it possible that the deep issues within our shallow political structure will require us to commit our very hearts and souls to the cause, that our enraged lips and tongues and intellectual understandings are not enough?

I invite us to consider not the content of these interns' prayers, but the passion, and to ask ourselves what we might do with that much energy.

Not to worry. I am leading a large prayer group in Washington too, and we pray for more abortions, and we pray twice as hard as these people, so their prayers are offset. And I don't mean to caste dispersions, we're just praying like muthafcukers yo.

Cure,

Yes, I would certainly prefer people that do not believe in the supernatural. Would I allow for people who don't bring it into their decision making. Sure. Do I believe religious people are ignorant? Of course not, just that they have a blind spot when it comes to belief in the supernatural, and I worry that it may affect their ability to make sound decisions in other areas. Is it possible the vast majority know something I don't, the existence of the supernatural, not that they have supported with credible evidence. Did I attend graduate school? No, though I would certainly recommend it to anyone with the opportunity. The important thing to remember is that education doesn't end the day you complete your formal studies, it begins.

d land,

Passion is just as likely to lead to bad as to good, and not something to be admired in and of itself. I certainly don't admire their passion it frightens me.

why does this even qualify as news?

Religious, non-religious, doesn't matter. The point of this clip is that they're nuts. But if they want to waste their time and money on this lil' cult, there are far more harmful things out there that they aren't doing. Would I like to see that energy/money/time put to better use? Sure. But then again, I'm not blameless when it comes to wasting energy/money/time.

The leader of this group is a con-man, and should be ashamed.

Fuck, that's scary. All these people moaning and rocking back and forth in a room. Creepy as hell. The worst part is that there are so many of them in the US. These are the people who get so frustrated that their feverish prayers aren't being answered that they decide to take matters into their own hands and end up killing doctors. It's truly unsettling to think about.

If you haven't done so already, I recommend looking at the jhop website (jhop.org) Wow.

The fundamentalist christian side of my family is really into this stuff (ie a family member pursuing a master's degree in Public Policy from Liberty U, another running for local government etc)- I think the reason this qualifies as news is that many people don't realize this subset of our population exists. If it weren't in my family, I don't know if I would believe it myself. I have seen statistics that say the only population group with high birthrates in the US is religious fundamentalists.

something to think about.

I even wrote a blog on this!!!

check it out haha

http://codecsonline.com/true/

It's obviously god's plan to allow Roe V Rade to happen in the first place... these people don't seems to the contradiction of their behaviour. Faith is one of their highest values. The infallancy nature of faith is what devalues it.

I think whatever group it is, there's going to wierd events happening to support the views of those who conduct them.

Why?

Because if they did things sensibly and intelligently, there would be NO media coverage. I remember a speech I went to about Disarming nuclear weapons where the rather old lady was describing an event urganized to get media attention. "Nudes not Nukes" Basically everyone going around in various levels of nudity (she had pearl necklaces and scarves to help cover herself a bit) and prading around.

Well of course that got media coverage because it was weird and got attention. The same thing with the House of prayer. It doesn't matter the issue involved, it's all about a good gimmick that will get the media attention.

Sorry, but after watching this clip, these guys remind me of me and other guys who hng out with the religious crowd for ONE reason, not personal or religious convictions...we did it for chicks!

They will DEFINITELY grow out of this when they develop that callous hide and have actually been out in the real world. Just like idealistic, crusading ultra liberals do after they have been out of college for a few years.

Many in this video are just following tenants of an ideal and have used those archaic ideals to replace their own critical thinking skills, which is so much easier. If they tried to defract this and many other issue, they would probably take the stances they do. Religion helps most people stick things in a box for easy packaging.

"they would probably take the stances they do."

I meant to say "they probably wouldn't take the stances they do."

ooops

"With all due respect, "aspersions" are cast, not "dispersions".

Aspersion: a : the act of calumniating b : a calumnious expression

Dispersion: the act or process of dispersing : the state of being dispersed

Posted by anon at December 1, 2005 09:08 AM"

No offence taken. Duly noted, Mate - kind of phuqued that one up at 0-dark:30 but I hope the point was made or should that be maid. ;)

I think what truly impacts me regarding this thread topic is that I am now seeing the members of this "group" in the background on several newscasts here in Australia and some are not even related to this topic.

Other than that - I find to blatant disrespect for the constitution and the judiciary by so-called fundi-mental-ists (you see mental is in thier "name" indicative of the rise to power of another society as a world power in the late 1920s.

It is a time for serious vigilance by all freedom loving Americans. the counrty is in grave peril to have our true freedoms erroded. Here in Australia it is now sedition (or soon will be - notsure of the vote today) to speak out against the government and as John Howard has said, "There will never be a Bill of Rights for the Australian people as long as I am Prime Minister".

For all the aspersions that I cast about my homeland (The USofA)- I still love it beyond all measure. I honour these religioous wackos the right to do what they do as long as I am still able to enjoy my rights to the fullest. Well, the Patriots Act kind of fucks that up, but for the most part I am still able to enjoy everything I usually do when I am home, except taking nail clippers on the plane. I can take my knitting needles though. :)

Norm, a direct to you - thanks, Mate for the best blog site on the web. I apprecaite your efforts and your willingness to put it out there.

my 20p

Several months ago, I watched a video slideshow of the Baghdad bombing that killed about 150 and wounded many others. I compared this photographic and radio report from the New York Times with the coverage by the Associated Press and realized something that I think may apply beyond my personal experience. I realized that truth and fact are not the same. I think facts are important to have to guide our intellect, but truth is something that employs facts in conjunction with emotions and something that speaks to the spirit. Garcia Marquez wrote: "I alter the facts to arrive at the truth." The facts may be the same, but we emphasize different aspects of these facts and depict these facts in such a way that go beyond objective data to achieve various strands of truth. I may not, in the end, agree with this group's perspective, but I can see the truth in what they believe. Their passion may appear scary in some ways, but they aren't hurting anyone through prayer. It is definitely interesting though. Thanks for the post Norm. Always thought-provoking.

Wow, I'm glad that the people who have the worst ideas also at least exercise them in ways that wont make a shit of a difference for the rest of us.

In what sense are these "interns"? In what sense are they "cultists"?

To Distastefordissent, This is not a blanket criticism. I have to say that the Jesuits and Nestorian Christians were very tolerant and helped brought knowledge of the sciences to the Middle East and China.

But kindly understand that non-Christians do not want to make Christianity a whipping boy intentionally with no cause.

I’m sad to say that Protestants and Evangelist in Asia do resort to persistent and intentional generalizations about local faiths and beliefs to attack them. And honesty and rational criticism is often lacking in their actions.

The notorious example was their deliberate characterisation of offering/burning joss sticks as part of a superstition for ancestor worship.

They did so based on a preconception that the Chinese believes in idol worship.

Nothing can be further from the truth. Ji-pai-zhu-cian means paying respects to one's ancestors who gave one life and honouring their memory. This is an act of filial piety that's more than 5000 years old.

Using incense to pay respect is a practise recorded in the Chinese Book of Rites that existed way before Buddhism and Taoism appeared in China.

However the Christian missionaries and their misguided flock continues to avoid acknowledging their mistake and still insists that the practise is wrong, is superstitious and goes against their religion.

Do they mean filial piety and customs goes against Christianity? So what if you believe in Jesus? An unfilial descendant who does not honour his ancestors is unlikely to go to Heaven.

And if a Chinese holds the view that only Christians go to Heaven, is he saying that his ancestors who did not believe in Him go to hell?

That's not just lack of filial piety but sheer hypocrisy as well.

Isn't it idolatry when you bent your head in prayer towards a cross with an idol of Christ on it?

Is it superstitious to hold up your cross or cross yourself? If you say it helps you to focus, that's exactly the same as offering incense in Chinese culture.

Such generalisation has plagued Christianity because the religion fostered it. Not because of the acts of non-believers.

As for religion taking an active place in political affairs, there's a fact in Asia. And in its history.

For example, the early Christians were purged in Japanese history because they incited insurgencies and co-operated with Western traders to carve out areas of influence in Japan, which risked upsetting Japan's social order.

Many Christians see them as Martyrs in the history of Christian oppression.

However local history recorded that these Christians incited violence, forced conversions and burnt temples and were like a plague to the local people. Such behaviour persisted as in the 1996 widespread temple burnings by Christians in South Korea which were broadcasted all over the world by BBC.

The Buddhists in Asia have to even resort to convening international conferences to discuss measures to fights such religious bigotry.

I hope I did not cause offence but I wish I do not have to be sad and sickened when I see what is wrought for religion.

My intention is to share. Not cause offense. But if I did, you have my sincere apologies.

"as to faith and religion... there are plenty of christians out there that go about their lives and live their faith instead of spending their time trying to 'save' everyone else. we all have to make choices based on our experiences and understanding, and shouldn't try to make choices for others in different situations with different understandings."

"i think that believing in god rarely has anything to do with religion or the bible."

"if you ask me, god is in nature. and i pray quietly as i stand in a field, or enjoy an autumn colorful visage. as far as i am concerned, god and religion are not the same thing."

===

ejpoeta, well put!

You might like to read some of the Gnostic writings that Church does not want to read for it proposes a humanistic, not literalist, way of practising Christianity. And what Jesus wrote in his own Gospels may also be an eye-opener for you.

I agree with you that faith should be a personal and private thing.

What I find hilarious is how chickenshit the major news organizations have become in confronting "people of faith."

They treat the religious with kid gloves and tiptoe around the utter insanity and stupidity of their beliefs.

Obviously, this has everything to do with market demographics and not the pursuit of reason or truth. Religious wackos make up a huge portion of the TeeVee viewing audience; they buy all the products the advertisers sell, so of course they cannot be attacked fully. You don't bite the hand that feeds you, no matter how fucking insane they are.

So news organizations treat the religious with far too much respect and give far too much credence to their wacky and insane beliefs. Few news people even have the temerity to question the more questionable and laughable misinterpretations the wackos make from the Bible. Even fewer seem to have the guts to question the outright disregard most fundamentalists have for the very words of Christ.

I quit believing in myths, fairly tales, and religious folklore when I was seven years old. Any seven-year-old educated in the post-Enlightenment era should be capable of seeing through all the nutty wishful thinking and superstitious mumbo-jumbo that are religions.

But I guess not. People seem to need their hocus-pocus stories and fairy tales and religious mumbo-jumbo because they have little or no faith in themselves. Instead, they place their faith in ghosts and goblins and fairies and mythological creatures.

How silly. Really. And how sad.

one of these guys is running the country and they are in the senate and congress. we have a nice crusade going on already.

way to go, the rest of the world will catch up and crush America while we sit around and pray and debate what science is.

soon we will have witch burnings and kill anyone who dares speak out against the "church" which will be fully integrated into the government.

Now that's what I call balance! Good work by ABC to not even raise the slightest doubt that maybe not all Christians dance like stoned hippies and scream into any open microphone like 12-year-old girls at their best friend's funeral. (Also, did they even indentify where they were interning?)

That blonde chick they interviewed is going to be in the porn industry in the next three years, no question. She's probably working on a stage name right now.

They're further proof that there is no God, because if there was, He wouldn't let idiots like this carry on in His name.

"I quit believing in myths, fairly tales, and religious folklore when I was seven years old. Any seven-year-old educated in the post-Enlightenment era should be capable of seeing through all the nutty wishful thinking and superstitious mumbo-jumbo that are religions.

But I guess not. People seem to need their hocus-pocus stories and fairy tales and religious mumbo-jumbo because they have little or no faith in themselves. Instead, they place their faith in ghosts and goblins and fairies and mythological creatures."

I can see why you believe this, but this phrasing does nothing to advance any cause. If anything, it just makes religious believers puff up and grow more determined to assert their faith.

Your point about the media not holding those of "faith" accountable to the very doctrines they claim to follow is very on-point, and one I (as a catholic) agree with. But then you end your post by asserting that anyone who still believes in religion is an idiot. So now any religious person is inclined to write you off, and the excellent point you made, out of being insulted. That, and not science vs. religion, is a zero-sum game.

DownWTNP said, "OK, let me get this straight. In order to get God to intervene, he needs to be assaulted with non-stop prayer?? Or else what? He wont get off his lazy ass to save all the soon-to-be-aborted unborn souls he's busy creating?"

Oh, but God HAS been busy worrying about the Supreme Court nominations, didn't you know that? If you had read the article linked above, you would know that "Months before the recent shifts in the Supreme Court, the Lord made it clear through numerous prophetic voices that the composition of the Court was about to change.. May His kingdom be established in our courts even as it is in heaven!"

Does separation of church and state come to mind here? Just a bunch of harmless, passionate "kids"?

DFD said, "I will refrain from drunken rants against "stereotyping Christians" if we can begin using the qualifier "fundamentalist" when it is appropriate. I think most would agree that these teenagers fall well within that category."

Looks like not everyone agrees. Your fellow Christian, C4P, seems to find nothing at all bizarre about what they are doing and feels that their fears are legitimate. NOW do you see why atheists are worried about this kind of stuff?? People can go around acting like psychiatric patients and there are some who will excuse them. Heck, they might even vote for them one day!

These "kids", 18 to 30 years old, are the future and they are passionate enough to be politically motivated, unlike so many would-be democrats who aren't even signed up to vote and most democrats who don't even care to vote a majority of the time. The religious right, on the other hand, ARE politically motivated and they DO vote. You just might see that cute little cheerleader, with her 4.0, working to get out the vote so the Supreme Court will become the Kingdom of God. The Republicans have been doing a good job on accomplishing this goal!

Cowboy, you're right about that rocking motion...it was unsettling to watch them.

I also found the Marat/Sade correlation interesting. I am wondering if perhaps the young blond cheerleader is the reincarnation of Charlotte Corday? Will we find some doctor who performs abortions in his bathtub with a knife in his chest, courtesy of the young zealot? I think that the "passion" exhibited by these "kids" is frightening.

C4P, of course breasts aren't bombs. The slogan was, "Breasts, not bombs", (as opposed to "Breast's not Bombs). ;) Anyway, as I said earlier, these nudist protestors are not so close to the White House and they aren't trying to pass any laws which infringe upon our freedoms, such as attempting to outlaw the shaving of one's armpits. Ghastly sight, though, ugh..

Theotheron said, "Atheism, really, is the absence of belief."

Yes!! How many times does this point have to be made? Norm posted this before, but I will say it again. Theism is the belief in one or more gods or goddesses. a–1 or an– pref. Without; not: amoral. [Greek.]

Therefore, atheist simply means not a theist. Atheism is simply a lack of a belief in Gods and Goddesses. It is not a belief system. The atheist does not believe in dieties, that is all

Theotherone said, " And I wish you people (yes, YOU PEOPLE, I happen to be a born-again zen gnostic telepathogist) would come up with words that differentiate between the two, I'm tired of mixing you up when you refer to yourselves as atheists. I like to know where people stand on where there beliefs lie (or don't exist)."

I agree, and that is an excellent point that you made, so you're forgiven for using "there" instead of "their". As for ending a sentence in a proposition, reminds me of the punch line to a joke; "can you tell me where the library is at, asshole".. I don't mean you!, I just don't worry too much about that particular grammatical rule because I haven't figured out what purpose that is serves?

I apologize for misspelling Berkeley. I apologize for saying "would they act any different". I should have said would they act any "differently."

Theotherone also said, "There's no word for people who don't believe in unicorns or people who don't believe in alchemy, is there?"

Another good point! Thank you! Yes, I will marry you!

So for those of you who believe in God and say that atheists "choose" not to believe in God, then using your own logic, you "choose" not to believe in the Easter Bunny and you have a belief system based upon not believing in the Easter Bunny. What's wrong with unicornism and EasterBunnyism? You can't PROVE that they don't exist! So why not have an open mind about it all?

Cure4pain, would you feel comfortable with an elected leader who believed in unicorns?

suomynona said "At least these kids are useless inside a little apartment".

Well, "kids" (18 -30 years old) are old enough to vote and old enough to campaign. They are not harmless. The thought that there are actually people like this out there is frightening! These aren't little kids, they are young adults!

Jack Mehoffer: Didn't you read the other responses? Some Anon already pointed out that you don't cast "dispersions", unless you are casting about visible light into colors by refraction or diffraction. You are casting ASPERSIONS.

Sorry for the long post, but it is troublesome that there are so many people who aren't troubled by the bizarre behavior of these voters. And it is difficult to understand this continuum of fundamentalist Christian, moderate Christian, Liberal Christian, and as Theotherone said, zen gnostic telepathogist atheists... geez...

Because, I agree with you. We should be careful not to alienate all Christians because so many of them are important voters for more liberal issues. But no one has a problem with attacking atheists. Can you imagine anyone who admitted being an atheist being elected president?

The fact that no one has a problem with attacking atheists is a problem. A large problem. And more Christians, if their agenda truly is one of universal peace, should be speaking out against these actions. It goes back to the fallacy of religion = morality. Religion may preach morality, but it is not the sole posessor of it. And you find moral and immoral people on either side of the religious coin.

So, for my small part, I will try to be vocal in defense of good people who are slandered merely for not believing in God. For any Christian who cries about being attacked for their religion to not do so is sheer hypocracy.

And never apologize for long posts when they contain such useful discussion.

Your point about the media not holding those of "faith" accountable to the very doctrines they claim to follow is very on-point, and one I (as a catholic) agree with. But then you end your post by asserting that anyone who still believes in religion is an idiot. So now any religious person is inclined to write you off, and the excellent point you made, out of being insulted. That, and not science vs. religion, is a zero-sum game.

What makes you think I care if I insult someone or not? Or whether they "write me off"?

Firstly, you assume I am addressing "faithful" people. I am not. I already assume anything I say to such people that deviates even a little from their "faith" will "insult" them. Therefore, I could care less what they think.

I find it funny that people think that critics should be careful of "insulting" others, as if being honest, blunt, and truthful is hurtful in and of itself. Or that insulting people in an argument is somehow wrong. Sorry, but I could care less if people get insulted. In fact, I hope they do. It doesn't change how I frame an argument or how I speak or write my thoughts.

I "write off" most religious people as dwellers of fantasy land. So whether they "get" what I say because I "insult" their sensitive little egos is immaterial.

I've felt like that before- like I was helping change the world just by asking for it to be changed. Fortunately, in my case, that sort of feeling can be controlled by medication. :)

Hi all, just my 5 cents.

I agree with Because in that I note that belief in god does not necessarily equate to having morals. Nor does disbelief mean morals are absent.

I believe that being loyal to friends and family is important to me. That being good is important and heaps of other boy scout stuff (yep I'm selling myself becos I'm probably single and desparate).

And I try to actualise such values in my everyday life. I often stumble and fall. But I won't stop trying. Whether or not I believe in god or not.

I'm not doing this to earn a ticket to Heaven. I'm doing this because such values mean something to me and I believe in them with all my heart. (Well, what's left of it after my recent break-up)

To me, that is faith. A faith that empowers. And helps me up and keep me going.

To equate atheists with no morals, no principles and no faith is perhaps the greatest sin organised religion can inflict on humanity.

Another example. The Buddha had questions and spent his life looking for answers and he found them, as well as his own type of Heavens i.e. Nirvana.

He was also an atheist. And he was and forever be a force for good.

I'm not a Buddhist by the way.

Sorry for the corny humour but it's getting a bit tense in here : P

So noted, mat. My apologies for the assumptions made.

In my opinion, insulting people in an arguement isn't right or wrong. It's just counter-productive. It leads us off-topic, and prolongs the arguement.

Speaking of the topic, and insults - would just like to repeat, the guy who takes those kids' money so they can scream & shake in an office is an ass.

When the black dude with dreadlocks gets the prissy 18 year old 4.0 blond girl pregnant during their 3 month "internship", I wonder how her views on abortion will change when she realizes explaining her "spiritual journey" to her parents may not be so easy nor convincing.

RE: rocking motion
Apparently this group has adopted the Jewish practice of "shuckling," or swaying/rocking during prayer. Almost every video clip taken at the Western Wall in Jerusalem shows this. The practice is very old. While it is not mentioned specifically in the bible, it may be based on Psalms 35:10: "All my bones shall say, LORD, who [is] like unto thee...? I think the idea is to create a total immersion in one's prayers, physically, mentally, and spiritually. Recall how both the Quakers and Shakers got their names, and you can see moving during prayer is nothing new.

And how many of you wiseguys bothered to consider that there might be something going on besides "Ooh, look at the crazies"?
Not quite what the cultists think is happening, but something, nevertheless.

Even without dragging the video down my dialup line, the descriptions make it pretty clear what's going on. These people are using their various motions to induce trance states in themselves. Dancing, repetitive motions, drumming and singing, are all classic means to induce trance. Now, trancing out with your friends all day can be a lot of fun -- maybe too much fun. Some people respond to those trances like a hallucinogenic drug. Back when I hung out with Neo-Pagans, we talked about "magic junkies", and occasionally had to deal with folks who couldn't or wouldn't return completely to "the real world".

So what am I learning...? JHOP teaches us that God operates on the "squeaky wheel" principle. Pat Robertson threatens that God acts only when there's something in it for him. When they told Pat that he was made in God's image, he just extrapolated God's image from his own.

Anyway, the point has been raised that these people are not only Christian but also fundamentalists and that we should make the distinction. I think it would be useful to discuss what qualifies behavior as "fundamentalist" behavior. For example, if 99% of the population prayed as these kids in the video do, would we be allowed to identify them as fundamentalists? I haven't yet seen a fundamentalist refer to oneself as a fundamentalist - does this happen? The word seems to be used by self-identified non-fundamentalists to distance themselves from extreme religious behavior, but is the definition of fundamentalism really that relative, or can I, whenever I see someone buy a plastic baby guardian angel in the mall, point and say, "fundamentalist"?

"shuckling" is probably from the German word "schunkeln" - to sway back and forth or side to side (it's what those sitting in the beer garden do when the slow music comes on - heh).

From OHR.edu:
"Deciding whether to 'shuckle' or stand still depends on which one helps you concentrate better. In any case, a person shouldn't move his body or contort his face in any way that will make him look weird.

This group is catagorically weird. (Thanks Librarian.)

all I can say after viewing that is...... jebus

Tom said:

"I can't think of a practical use for that experience (no state university would take it as credit), but the JHOP website does. According to Mr. Engle, "[JHOP] serves as the main entry point for those interested in joining the staff of JHOP as well as those who desire to begin similar houses of prayer around the nation and nations."

So, according to the definition from their own website... doesn't it all just boil down to a pyramid scheme? You pay the money, you go and either walk away a true believer, or a cynic who now knows how to get wide-eyed christian kids to pay you $1500 bucks for three months?

That's one use for this "internship" - though I can't imagine you'd put it on your resume.

Ouch!

That guy though - total con man. Some woman walked up and offered to pay his salary so he could get kids praying...? Doesn't sound very plausible. (Yeah, that happens to me every day. You?) I wouldn't be surprised if he gets "involved" with some of those cute girls - they are young, naive, in a religious fervour, and they think he's a Man of God and will never question his intentions. (I grew up in an urban cult and I don't put anything past those type of people.) Maybe we should start a betting pool for when the kids' parents end up suing the guy. Oh yeah, I don't gamble.

To Jo Ann: I'd take it a step further - there will be a black lesbian woman in the White House before there will be an atheist. :-)

Peace, all. I'm off to lovely Montreal for the weekend. Enjoy yours and see you Monday.

I'm glad there are bars on the windows. After enough of that trancing, somebody might think they can fly.

Sick people.

Too many Christians, not enough lions.

I grew up around those people. They scare me a little less as an adult. I basically think most of what they do--esp. music, dance, sermons, communal living, etc.--is okay. Not only okay but theologically sound, in the abstract, if you can stand any thing theological and abstract. 70, even 700 or 700k, communal but capitalist Jesus freaks, are a minority, even in D.C. There's no reason I can think of that their views should be law but they are worth listening to, once in a while, as long as they aren't handling snakes or within a mile of a voting booth.

I've seen more kids like the D.C. interns in NJ than anywhere else, oddly enough. They probably exist in scads in the south but are just harder to spot since over zealous youth programs run by charismatics blend into the current Methobapterian scene like a TCBY at a strip mall.

as long as they aren't ... within a mile of a voting booth.

They're within a mile of the supreme court. Luckily, they don't seem to get out too much.

yankinoz, wow......nice try with the whole pull the scripture out of the hat thing. Scripture also talks about 120 who gathered to pray and fast together (Acts 1) and then even crazier things than what happened in this video is described in (Acts 2). Scripture also speaks a man God told to go neked and prophesy to get a point across, and another prophet was told to prophesy to dry bones, and there are many other "finatical" ways that God had his people express themselves throughout the Bible, so if praying loudly and intensly like Jesus on the mount, singing like it tells us to in psalms, dancing like david did but with more clothes on, and making God word heard like paul did on the steps of the temple, or the christians did in the streets after penticost is finatical,its only because God has always done things that way. If you did any real study of the scriptures you would know you need to take in account situation, history of the people, and timeframe when properly taking the meaning from scripture in which case you would find that the people being spoke to (in the scripture you quoted) were truly not praying at all but more trying to be seen attempting to be religious.In fact your post sounded very much like the pharasies and saducees of Jesus time, quoting scripture but not truly understanding the meaning behind them. Going down a different path than I intended though. The point is this.....after reading through these posts it is even more evident to me how Godless our nation has really become. You are more concerned about a few teens praying in a building than you are about the thousands being killed for which they are praying for. Has it never concerned any of you that it is legal to kill an unborn child iin a clinic, but if a mother tries to kill her unborn child on her own...its called murder. People fight for the rights of animals yet promote abortion, complain about the young men and women being killed who choose to join the army knowing fully they will have a good chance to be sent to war, even though it is tragic they made the choice to join and give their lives, the children didn't. I do belive in pro-choice...you do have a choice....it happens when you decide to sleep around and get pregnant....at this point people reading are starting to fume, but oh well....truth will always get peoples emotions going. If you want to argue the point rape, incest, ect. we will cross that bridge when abortion is stopped and only those who are raped or got pregnant through incest are legal.....the fact of the matter is that this group is very small in the whole issue of abortion.

Pastor C.

Norm, I gotta disagree with you. People who do not believe in the supernatural (specifically, those who believe in the absence of the supernatural) have just as big a blind spot when it comes to belief in the supernatural as people who believe in it. I would rather have someone who allows he/she does not know, that either is possible, and that it's best to maintain an open mind. Lack of experience is not proof of nonexistence, and frankly, I don't believe everything in existence can be proven or disproven. 1000 years ago, mankind couldn't prove the earth was not the center of the universe; that didn't make it true that it was.

As for fundamentalists, I love how they know all the hellfire and brimstone, intolerant parts of the bible by heart, until they can quote it - in tongues, even - in their sleep or from a prayer-induced coma. But the more tolerant parts that say love, forgive, honor; treat your neighbor as you want to be treated? Yeah, those parts are for wiping your boots on, apparently. The do not honor the teachings of Christ in any way, shape or form; therefore, I can hardly define them as "Christians". It takes more than the belief Christ once lived to make one a christian. And until they practice 100% love and forgiveness in their lives and to all they know, they really need to shut up and sit down.

Pastor C - nice try but you need to to understand that I am looking at what the man Joshua Bar Joseph Cohen said about all of this not what happened after his death.

And it is, to me, still hypocritical to do this exhibition of righteousness than to feed widows and orphans and care for the sick and injured - which were direct commands by your main guy.

And "the fact of the matter is" that all is speculation any way. There is no proof. Period.

So it is, to me, all ramblings.

Pastor said, "after reading through these posts it is even more evident to me how Godless our nation has really become."

Do you have supernatural powers which allow you to know what concerns that godless people have for the poor and those who are losing their lives in war?

Pastor then said, "it happens when you decide to sleep around and get pregnant"

Since you made some assumptions about "godless" people, I will make an assumption about you. Seems that what you are really concerned about is people sleeping around.

Anon said, "I* would rather have someone who allows he/she does not know, that either is possible, and that it's best to maintain an open mind. Lack of experience is not proof of nonexistence,"

So are you willing to keep an open mind about those who believe in unicorns? And what about Zeus? Are you willing to keep and open mind about all of the Roman and Greek deities?

My, my, what is this world coming to with all of these Unicornless and Zeusless people? They might start thinking for themselves. Next thing you know, they might even become a (gasp) Scientist!

And, as Anon said, "I don't believe everything in existence can be proved or disproved", I hereby will try to keep an open mind about Unicorns, Zeus, Allah, the Easter Bunny, or any other supernatural being that someone chooses to evoke. But, geez, with all of the supernatural beings being evoked, such as God, Allah, and The Great Spirit, I wonder what it's like in the world of the supernatural? The poor little unicorns are probably cowering under the bushes, frightened at the battles being waged by all of these competing interests for the title of Master of the Universe.

But wait.... we don't have to worry anymore whether it is Allah, or God, or the Great Spirit who will win the great battle of the cosmic universe! We have Pastor C who knows all and sees all and will be able to set us straight!!

(I know, Kestral, it's naughty, but I am in that kind of mood :))

anon--not all persons that don't believe in the supernatural have that blind spot you speak of. I, for one, do not believe in the supernatural, but I recognize that, that is just my personal belief. It is not a verifiable fact in the same way that, say for example, the speed of light in a vacuum is a verifiable fact.

For me, it is "truth" that there is no supernatural in the world and that it's all in peoples' minds. But I try not to force that view onto other people. People need to figure out what works for them.

I only cringe when people let their personal interpretation of reality move so far away from the pragmatic, the practical, and the realistic that they let themselves get drawn in to cults like the one in the video clip.

I think Anon a few posts back hit on the very essence of our differences.

He/She writes:

And until they practice 100% love and forgiveness in their lives and to all they know, they really need to shut up and sit down.

100% is impossible period. Every Christian will acknowledge this. Impossible for you, me and the Pope. Liberals and Atheist expect the impossible, and when they see people "missing the mark", they see it as a major flaw and/or hypocritical. A reason to marginalize their thinking and reasoning. We (Christians) aspire to the 100% knowing that we will not be able to attain it. That is where true forgiveness and redemption steps in. Liberals just see the flaw and have a hard time seeing "change of heart." Scrutiny doesn't apply to non-believers because there is nothing with which to hold them accountable. Well...maybe ones friends and family, but those(Christian and non) are flawed entities. So when a non-believer cheats on his wife or tax return it's redemption needs to be SEEN from others but not come from ones self in the form of true redemtion, because they did not profess to believe in something bigger than themselves. In fact Yank, your scripture reference does not really fly in the face of these kids. "They are getting their reward now." Whether good or bad the reward of there "efforts" are coming to fruition now. They have gotten our attention and we are talking about them. Getting the idea that there are people out there that don't agree with those here is the fulfillment of their actions. They probably do pray in their "closets" about other things. The thing is they are still a part of the body of "Christendom." They may be an ingrown toenail, but still part of the body nonetheless. OK .....rambling stops now.

C4P and the rest of you Bible thumpers: One question - and it doesn't "require" 100% anything - since "missing the mark" is a Christian tradition (that is what "sin" means in ancient Greek):

If this prayer effort is so effective and the immediate results are so substantial then why - this is the question - are they still in the throws of this effort? Abortion is still allowed and hopefully it will continue as long as womyn and women have the desire to have personal charge over thier bodies.

Doesn't make sense to me - except for the publicity grabbing and sanctimonious high-mindedness that it generates from "Christendom" - whatever that is.

OK - I am on a roll - another question (multiple parts).

Since this is all a reflection of "Christendom", can you tell me what religous order within Judaism Joshua bar Joseph Cohen (whom you erroneously call Jesus Christ) belonged and when was the "history" accurately recorded and presented to be reviewed as scripture?

And at that time how many Joshuas were there that had their writings and oral tradiotns presented at the same time?

As a final bit of this queston - when was the first recording of a man dying on a cross, born of a virgin and acting as the propitiation for all of mankind "recorded" as history and what was his name and his mother's name.

Oh, yeah, when was the physical existence of Jesus Christ decided upon to become a part of Christendom and who instigated it?

What I have come to understand is that regurgitation of spoon-feed snippets of theology and dogma do not sufice for me.

As I previously stated, I am not concerned whether it "flys" for you - I am quoting "supposed" communication from your main connection with an all powerful all knowing all seeing all being-every-where kind of anthrophomorphic being who is sitting somewhere just beyond the rainbow who has never been seen and has direct interest in the (as I have been told by several members of "Christendom") only inhabited planet in all of the Universe (What a waste of space!) and you.

Without the stuff this guy is supposed to have done, you are one lost goner.

Final question: Do you - any of you - have valid proof - verifiable proof that:

1) Prayer works? Not the psychological effects that can be validated being present from similar mental effects.

2) That you man - Jesus Christ - historically existed? Do not quote Josephus - he was not present during the time that this guy was supposed to be around - he recorded oral tradition. And do not use the Bible or any other prejudicial personal agenda source. An independent source - say a Roman tax record - oh, that's right Mum and Dad had to leave to aviod any tax record being written. None when they came back?

I have more but I will wait.

Cure4pain said, "So when a non-believer cheats on his wife or tax return it's redemption needs to be SEEN from others but not come from ones self in the form of true redemtion, because they did not profess to believe in something bigger than themselves."

So, Cure, are you saying that if you did not believe in God that you would cheat on your wife and cheat on your taxes and it wouldn't bother you at all? Are you saying that the only reason it bothers you is because you fear that God can see what you are doing?

Are you saying that Godless and Unicornless and Zeusless people are all dishonest as long as no one is looking?

Well, how do the religious political figures and leaders in the spot light explain their obviously deceitful actions to the public, if they truly knew The Bible and what Proverbs 12:22 states?

Why are Christians so quick to forgive them, but not so quick to do so for others?

Forgiveness in today's religious culture is such a subjective term.

"Norm, I gotta disagree with you. People who do not believe in the supernatural (specifically, those who believe in the absence of the supernatural) have just as big a blind spot when it comes to belief in the supernatural as people who believe in it." The only blind spot I have that is I require evidence for my beliefs. If you provide evidence of something that heretofore was considered supernatural I'll gladly expect it. There are some things where the evidence is so overwhelming that we speak of them as fact. As a practical matter do you still have an open mind on gravity or that Bush is an asshole. :)

"Norm, I gotta disagree with you. People who do not believe in the supernatural (specifically, those who believe in the absence of the supernatural) have just as big a blind spot when it comes to belief in the supernatural as people who believe in it."

A blind spot about what? Ghosts, gobblins, faeries, angels, devils, unicorns, and other mythical creatures and aparitions? My only "blind spots" concern the lack of knowledge I have in areas I have either not studied yet or don't have the time in the future to study. I'd like to learn everything I can, but that's impossible. But things I don't fully understand do not become "supernatural" and I start assigning some silly "supernatural" force to explain them.

To me, religious "people of faith" cling to their religions, folklore, and myths out of fear, ignorance, hate, and insecurity. And not only that, they expect everyone else to harbor the same irrational thinking. I can understand why religious people hold onto their faiths with such gusto. Sadly, they cannot understand in any way why I long ago rejected religions and do not cling to any.

And that's the difference.

What are these people going to do if the results of the Supreme Court are not to their liking? Are these the type of people who drink cyanide kool-aid and think that there is a space ship hidden behind some comet? Me thinks they are a cult in the making.

Religion is one of the worst creations of mankind and it is supported by fear and greed of the ignorant.

-DBB

Yank, This is from dictionary .com

Chris·ten·dom n. 1. Christians considered as a group. 2. The Christian world.

I will try to give you my answer as concise as possible. First your request seems a little preposterous. The next time you say "Bush lied people died," please give me your reasons without quoting the Downing Street Memo, the Dulfer Report ect. To me the Bible gives the account of historicly verifyable events. Not just the crucifiction. You may have read the Ilead by Homer. That piece of ancient lit is taught in just about every university. No body questions its' authenticty. It has been preserved and passed on through out history with only 600 or so manuscripts. The Bible has over 2500 manuscripts. I also have to go back to my whole "moral" argument from last week or so. Some say morals are genetic. I see it this way. The human existance is on a course. We are ships on a voyage. (stay with me please) For a successful voyage we need 2 things independent but yet reliant on each other. Seaworhtyness and the ability to steer. When we have moral breakdown we become unable to steer. When we can't steer we run into each other, thus making us less seaworthy. What happens with you Yank is you don't believe we are going anywhere. I beleive the course is set towards or by God. The moral compas in all of us is not genetic but given by God. Other reasons I believe. Well.... love, joy, passion, the miracle that my children are, to me, are from God. Anyway, JoAnn I will respond to you soon but I must go out for a while.

Hi Cure4Pain, I respect your religious views. Gracious and well-put

I only have some questions on political ones though. Not sure what you have about the Downing memo?

Bush also got a brief from CIA 5 days after 9/11 that states clearly that there are no proof that Saddam has anything to do with it. He asked them to prepare it.

Going after the Taliban in Alfghanistan makes sense. But I wonder about a few things.

Why not go after the Saudis too as 16 of the 18 bombers are Saudis? Why not go after Iran which has a record of helping Al Queda and is pursueing a nuclear program? If WMD in the middle east is a no-no, why not go Israel which has an estimated number of 200 nukes?

Lastly, why not go after North Korea, which is a terroist state, armed with nukes and threathening to use it?

or let's pick the easy one. We know that the sanctions have cripped the IRaqi army. Let's go in and win the peace and then we can sit out all the hard fights that need fighting?

Is it also because this galvanises public opinion to support the President as Commander in Chief who gains almost limitless power? Bush did not have much popularity before 9-11. To him, 9-11 may well have been a political god-send, no offense intended.

Kestrel, No offense taken. I was trying to refute Yank by using his logic as an example. he wanted to know how it is that I believe in God and Jesus, but don't use this and don't quote that. I was just saying that that makes no sense. That's all. Downing and Dulfer are all legit to me. What he would be asking me is to give evidence of "Bush lied people died," Oh and by the way don't cite Dulfer or Downing. Make sense? As for Yank, if you want some great fodder for the case for God with all of your qualifiers you should read Mere Christianity by C.S. Lewis. He explains it way better than I can.

JoAnn, Why would it bother me? If I live serving no one but myself, self wins. If people want to sit here and say we are governed by natural and genetic laws, then take the argument to the fullest extent. There really is no consequence to my sin except the harm that I do to others ..boo hoo.. No harm to me. But that is just me trying to fulfill my legitimate needs. No need for moral behavior. Christians feel repentant not because God sees them sinning but because the sinner knows that he/she has fallen short and needs redemption. So why would a non-believer need to be redeemed? To stay in the good graces of friends and family. Why? They are flawed sinners too. I am not saying that Godless and Unicornless and Zeusless people are all dishonest as long as no one is looking. They are honest despite what nature and genetic coding dictate. There is no need to be honest except to fulfill selfish desire. And when I say that "they are sinners too" I include myself. Everyone you know, at some point, is going to let you down. Of course some more than others. Life is just that way. I think that there is an unhealthy notion that non-believers think Christians see everyone else as sinners. This is most certainly not true. I feel I am no different than anyone else here, only I recognize the need for something greater.

Hi Care4pain (is there a nice name I can tag on to this?), I understand the difficulties in believing in God and Jesus. Or telling people why you believe. It's like, "Why would anyone want to be a Hindu? Ain't he worried that he'll come as a cockroach?" Is there an answer to that, maybe. A reason... Why? It's faith.

For me, I get past this potential minefield by reading what the Church did not want me to read. By reading the primary writings without the modern spin and religious sophistry.

The 200-over Gnostic writings that was censored from the New Testaments by the Church council 5 th century AD, 3 of which were penned by Jesus who referred as a man and a Jew. To know Jesus, I know I have to read those 3. Or try to.

If you believed that the Messiah that will come to save us all in the Old Testaments is Jesus, kindly note that He needs to be descended from the House of David.

To do this, Mary can't be a virgin, holy or otherwise. You don't pass herditary bloodlines any other way.

Once you used that as a premise, it's easy to read the Bible, especially why Jesus did what he did, said what he said.

I give him 10 out of 10 for trying to save the jews. I deduct off some points for rascism as he did not want to have anything to do with non-Jews or Gentiles. That's ok as Jewish society back then was rascist and segregationist and non-Jews were treated like filth. And Christianity started as a Jewish cult (as in secretive society with non-mainstream practises) and Jesus was raised as a Jew.

Society was harsh then and that was reflected in the Old and New Testaments. Morality was also non-existent. So I gave Jesus more points and an over-time for a great play and a great heart for trying to do good for an unrepentatent and ungrateful ball court audience. The Jews.

But in the end, I had to fail him and the Buddha both because these 2 Great Men abandon their families and their parents to do what a man's got to to do. Yeah right. What's the first definition for a man? Provider for a family? Loving father? Filial son? Great lover? Ok, I take the last one back.

If you don't care about your own mum or you are willing to sacrifice her happiness or well-being, I will never believe that you care for me. Filial impiety ranks above treason as a sin throughout humanity.

To me, you don't get a pass for that even if you are a son of God. All of us here can be considered children of God. Does that make us exempt.

Come right down to it, Jesus and the Buddha provide moral case studies that I follow but never in a wholesale way.

Call me a liberal-con who's still looking for his pot of gold under different rainbows : P

No offense intended. I'm just sharing how I reconcile Christian learnings with my life. Could be better. Could be a lot worse.

Well, at least opponents of abortion, and the like, are wasting all their money to rent offices to pray, rather than channelling it into something effective...

Cure4Pain - your response did not answer any of my questions... which to me is trypical.

The first god/man that was born of a virgin, crucifiedfor the sins of all mankind, resurrected and rose to the after life (by the way, heaven and hell are Muslim in origin not Christian or Jewish) was Dyonisis.

Teh first "Christian" to begin to preach that a man named Jesus Christ even existed as a human being and not just an ideal to aspire to was James.

These are historical - not based upon religious text. (Read 'The Jesus Mysteries" for more details and "Holy Blood, Holy Grail"). Both authored by individuals who researched extensively and had no particualr ax to grind or agenda to support.

C4P, when you can get past your altruisma and respond with facts - I will be more than happy to listen.

What I see so far is the same spoon feed spiritual blackmail and hope upon hopelessness that has convinced me of the lack of truth and facts in religion and in Christianity in particular.

my 20p

Looking from Europe, every day Americans are getting scarier and scarier

Pete, to be fair, US does not have the advantage of Europe in that the Church and State are strictly separated. This is probably the fallout of the actions of the Church on politics in its history. US is a younger continent by far...

kestrel - not sure where in Europe you live - but when I lived in Germany, I had to declare my religious affiliation to the state and then 10% of my income was drawn form my bank account each and every month - wheter I liked it or not. Would you define that as aseperation of church and state?

I had to choose eiother Catholic or Protestant, to the tax offices (can't get more government than that) and then they just took it.

Hi Yank, I'm from Asia. I'm commenting from what I read read in Singapore news, NY times earlier in the year on the impact religion of in Europe today. For example, the first draft of the European constitution did not mention Christianity, although some people have since then campaigned to put in in.

Can you fill me in on more details? What's this forced 10% tithe you mentioned? What happens to people of other religions? Is this a religious tax? What about atheists or free thinkers?

Did Rebecca say at the end of the interview that she's "...never felt VEAL like she has here"!?!

Ewwwwwww

That's another $500 I'm donating to NARAL.... Thanks, Crazy Christians, for reminding me to do my part to keep Abortion legal!

hi kestrel:

When I moved to Germany and any subsequent time I moved house, I had to register with the local tax office and government Where Are You Now Office - (very good record keepers those Germans). And I would have to include my religious affiliation (and banking affiliation) - if I declared I was anything but a Catholic or Prrotestant, then I had to prove I was paying a 10% "tithe" to that affiliation.

I am an Atheist - no church to support and no 10% - so I thought. My "fees" were collected and divided between the two major churches: Roman Catholic and Protestant - Lutheran, I suppose.

When I moved to Switzerland, where my Mum is from, I had no obligations to support any particular faith or non-faith. I prefer Switzerland. :)

It is a religious tax. It was explained to me that it was the way to keep the churches in repair. Somehow, I thought that was smoke and mirrors.

Forced - well, it was not voluntary for me. :)

Hi YankinOZ, thanks for sharing. I don't really really think they should impose religious tax on atheists. Unless that's the price for having morals : >

Are you still in Switzerland?

Just to add some common sense. Did you ever think that maybe some of the money the interns pay go to rent for their prayer room(ten thousand), rent for where their dorms(10,000) food, electrical, water, gas, ect... Also take into account that they live in or near DC which has a very high cost of living. Perhaps Lou Engle is NOT the rich person you are trying to make him out to be.

Check out this video clip (real player) of this guy and his followers at some kind of revival or something. This stuff is creepy!!

http://www.barf.org/ram/thecallnyc-20020622-engle-conclude.ram

Twisted, by the Dark Side, these younglings have become.

Leftbanker with the sh*tty aim comment, that was funny. Also some very insightful discussions on this topic. Thanks. IMO I agree there is a very cultlike quality to this group. I'm not exactly sure whether their prayer is supposed to make god change the judges minds or if they expect god to change the minds of the children getting pregnant? If they expect god to change the minds of the judges then that would conflict with the "FREE WILL" god gave us a while back.
Pass around the REEBOKS and a few glasses of kool-aid. I have a feeling parental notification #777 comet has just entered the solar system.

I was simply like to say that many people are throwing verses out of context. I agree that the verses that talk about praying in secret and not being as the hypocrites and praying aloud on the street corners are valid. However, don't force the verses to fit your ideas. They didn't just assemble and start doing all that stuff because a camera was coming. Do you really think they would have gotten on the news if they were not already doing all that stuff?
I know people have shouted "heresy" and "cult" but there's nothing in the Bible saying you have to "pray silently" or "stay perfectly still when praying"  or even "you can't play music or dance around while praying." It's easy to be a spectator shouting "Satanic" or "Corrupt," but also remember the Pharisees claimed that Jesus was using Satan's powers. Don't so easy shrug off something as Satan when we have no right to judge what is occuring. 
In America we're so used spouting out what we think before even thinking it over and researching anything. Are we truly so lazy as to think we KNOW what's going there based on the news?!? Come on. Now if anyone is going to say something terrible or derrogatory about them, you better actually go there yourself before you make judgements that only God alone can perfectly make. Think before speaking.

These people are obviously decieved, they mean well but are lost in attempting to do something to reach God or another level or perfection. While the behavior is really strange what is worse is when you look into the theology behind what these people are doing. They think they are Prophets and are in direct contact with God, parts of these groups are predicting a civil war - real blood - in the church and then a purification that will take place before Jesus returns. This is not mainstream Christianity. Scary stuff look it up on their own web sites